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"Christian Moms Group Condemns Hallmark Channel for Airing Lesbian Wedding Ad"

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Jeffs is more traditional than you are.
You are more traditional than Katzpur.

I realize that the LDS isn't much more monolithic, ethically, than most big religious organizations. I'm well acquainted with the RCC. It's bigger, older, and more diverse than LDS, by a lot.

But Jeffs is a Mormon, just as Cortez and Hitler were Catholic. Their behavior was also supported by their religious communities, at the time.
Tom
You're going to have to do a bit of clarifying on this post, Tom. I think it goes without saying that I'm probably the most non-traditional practicing Latter-day Saint on this forum. But to describe Warren Jeffs as "traditional" is absurd. In what sense do you see him as traditional? And to say that his behavior was supported by his religious community is really misleading. What religious community might that have been?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
That is not a comparison.

I have claimed from the beginning that the only appropriate sexual attraction and relationship is the one had within marriage between a husband and wife who are legally and lawfully wedded.

This means that my list of "inappropriate sexual attraction" would also include consensual heterosexual sexual relationships outside of marriage.

Does the fact that this is also included in my list mean that I am "comparing" consensual premarital relationships with the raping of children?

That is not a comparison. It is me clearly stating my beliefs about sex and marriage.

Any reasonable person who read my posts would have come to know that I never compared pedophilia with homosexuality.

First off, I never compared them. That is the lie you and others keep chirping in this "echo chamber" of mass delusion.

Second, no one needs to be rational nor do they need evidence to have an opinion. Do you not know what opinions are?

Third, I have explained my beliefs about sex and marriage many times.

I understand that you don't like that same-sex attraction is on my list of "inappropriate sexual attraction" along with every other sexual weakness outside of a marriage between a man and woman, but that doesn't mean I compared pedophilia to homosexuality.

Tough beans.

I don't like that many Christians place Latter-day Saints in their list of "people who are going to Hell" along with murderers and rapists, but I'm not about to claim that me being on their list is them comparing me to a murderer or a rapist.

Especially if the Christian who made that list repeated over and over again that they weren't comparing me, or claiming that I was "similar", to any murderer or rapist - they just believe I'm going to Hell for believing in a "different Jesus".

It would be completely unreasonable for me to claim that they were comparing me to murderers and rapists.

Triggered?

When someone says something stupid or nonsensical - I will point it out.

Especially if that stupid or nonsensical comment receives "Like" and "Winner" votes.

No, this is where you completely lose me because you are making stuff up.

Sharing a belief does not damage anyone ever. If it did, then I would have a huge bone to pick with you.

Since we are talking about children - let's delve into the public school system.

These are places where a belief in God or anything related to Him or any religion are not to be discussed or mentioned - right? "No God in schools!"?

On the flip side, teachers in public schools will teach children that it is okay to be attracted to the same-sex and that boys can become girls.

Now, I understand that there should be a separation of Church and State - so public schools shouldn't encourage any religious stuff. I get that. I agree with that.

I also understand that teachers should be teaching their students to be tolerant and open-minded about their classmates. I get that. I agree with that.

However, if the premise "Ideas can do damage to youngsters" were true - then I would have a problem and I would protest against teachers telling my kids that same-sex attraction is acceptable and appropriate and that people could change their sex.

That might "Make them gay!" or "Make them transgender!"

Don't worry - since I know for a fact that sharing ideas cannot do actual damage to anyone - I'm not going to flip my lid. Because I'm a reasonable person.

Also, wtf do you think I'm doing when I share my opinion? Do you imagine that I'm going into schools on a soapbox and shouting "SHAME!" at the top of my lungs?

It is not the idea that does damage - but what people decide to do with the idea. What does the idea motivate them to do?

This sounds like something Hitler said to justify his taking over of the press.

If you really feel that way - don't share my posts on this website with any children.

ETA?

I have never told any black kids that they were the cause of racism. I never claimed that black people could not be the victims of racism.

Nor have I told any homosexuals that they are the cause of homophobia. I never claimed that homosexuals could not be the victims of homophobia.

How is this "similar" to anything? What are you talking about now? Is this another nonsensical claim?

Well, considering that morality is completely subjective - I don't really care.

Also, considering that you keep making stuff up and then claiming I did them and then condemning me for things I never did or said - I would never trust your judgment.

HAH! You do believe that my religion is immoral.

Oh my goodness - I thought you were such a sensible person before this thread.

But you pulled out all the stops bro.

You keeping making hasty and nonsensical claims, then you try to go back and fix it and then you say the very same things again.

If I were like you, I could try to blame all this on the fact that you are a homosexual - but I won't.
If you'd rather tell yourself that the rest of us are all just having some mass delusion because we all came to the same conclusion after reading your posts, and you don't like that, then I guess there's nothing more to say, and your arguments are no longer worth entertaining. Because you are just kidding yourself.

Also, you've brought up Godwin's Law more than once on the thread. So there's that.:shrug:
Godwin's law - Wikipedia
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I believe that God commanded all creatures to multiply after their kind when He first created them.

I believe that Adam and Eve were also commanded to multiply after their kind, but the Lord had already married them.

I believe that Our Father in Heaven wants His children to be chaste until marriage and to then be faithful in marriage, with complete fidelity.

Needless to say, but I'll say it anyway, I believe that the Lord designed marriage to be only for a man and a woman.

I've said this stuff before and I don't know what else to say now.
Why do you believe that?

Do you believe others should care what your religion believes?

I have a cousin who is gay, who managed to "multiply after her kind." So your God is cool with her, right?
And the same God is not cool with my heterosexual mother marrying a heterosexual man long after she was no longer able to "multiply after her kind?"
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe that Our Father in Heaven wants His children to be chaste until marriage and to then be faithful in marriage, with complete fidelity.

Needless to say, but I'll say it anyway, I believe that the Lord designed marriage to be only for a man and a woman.

What about those of us who don't believe in your God? Or in my case that if he does exist, and is just another deity running amok, has no authority over me, and his wishes are not binding on me. Wha'bout dat?

And if, as you've been protesting that these are only your beliefs, why does the subject matter so much? That is to say, that I live and sleep with another man, albeit legally married under US law, how does that affect you or any other marriage? Why do you care? This is what I don't understand about those who are against same sex marriage. What is it to you?
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
Oh, here no one has gave me grief.
That's still very strange to me. I have lived in California my whole life and I have been given much grief over my race and sex.

It's to the point where they believe that I am not allowed to have an opinion about certain things because I'm white or because I am a man.

However, I do tend to receive the most grief when I claim to disagree with the masses on various topics.

Perhaps they would ignore my race and sex if I stopped thinking for myself and just let them decide everything for me?

Maybe you haven't received any grief because you happen to agree with the masses on various topics?

In Indiana, however, it was a very different story. Living with evangelicals, fundamentalists, and religious conservatives was hell. Those Hoosiers were vile and wretched, always quick to point out "Bible this" and "god that," never able to mind the beam in their own eye, occasionally telling me to leave, and I moved to California. Now life is so much easier in so many ways.
That's interesting, because that's generally the behavior I receive from most Californians once they come to know that I don't agree with them.


Of course, they don't point to the Bible or God, but they do tend to threaten violence on those they disagree with while holding a sign that says, "Peace".

I believe that everyone has a "beam" in their eye and everyone also feels threatened by things they don't agree with or understand.

I don't believe that God or the Bible teaches people to be hypocrites or to fear what they don't understand - but rather Satan does this- and he can rage in the hearts of us all if we let him.
Teachings from the Bible.
I have been reading the Bible for most of my life and I have yet to see anything contained within it that "robs a child of self esteem" or "destroys their confidence"

It is true that I have seen people try to use it to teach the false doctrine that all Mankind is deserving of Hell.

If that were true, then the Lord Jesus Christ would not have done what He did to redeem and save us.

He obviously believes that we do not deserve to go to Hell, since He is offering us all an escape from it.
 
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JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
So you're just going to ignore the fact that black people are still subjected to far more systemic inequality than white people are?
I don't believe that to be a fact.

Could you point out they way the system penalizes black people because of their race?
That white people occupy nearly ALL positions of power in America?
They don't. That's an exaggeration.

Even if they did, if we are talking about Government "positions of power", then there would be nothing wrong with it. The People decide who represents them.

That is not an example of "systematic oppression".

Did you somehow forget that we had a black man as the President of the United States of America for eight years?
You're seriously going to suggest that white men are being systemically abused in a country where they literally have ALL of the advantages, and that racism isn't a problem just because the law says you're equal (despite all the ways in which people and institutions still continue to treat black people as inferior)?
What advantages?

What institutions are treating black people as inferior?

If people are treating black people as inferior - that sucks - but that is not an example of "systematic oppression".
Are you serious?
100% serious.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
That's still very strange to me. I have lived in California my whole life and I have been given much grief over my race and sex.
That's strange to me, because my experience has been largely and mostly people mind their own business. Even in "conservative" Bakersfield, people generally don't butt in and intrude into your life and business. I've gotten no grief over being white, from no one of any ethnicity here, and I'm definitely pale white for the area.
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
Why do you believe that?
I believe that the Holy Spirit of God has testified to my heart and mind the truthfulness of these things.

It is an ineffable witness that is so powerful that it can cast out all fear and doubt.
Do you believe others should care what your religion believes?
What do you mean by "care"?
I have a cousin who is gay, who managed to "multiply after her kind." So your God is cool with her, right?
I do not believe that my God is any different than your God or anyone else's God. I believe there to be only one.

My belief is that God is both "cool" and "not cool" with her or any of us.

God is always "cool" with us to the extent that He has given us our freedom of choice and He honors the decisions that we make.

Our purpose for coming to this world is to be tested, but this test is not simply about getting all the right answers, but rather proving to God and ourselves who and what we are. And also who and what we want to be.

Who and what we decide to be in this world - God will honor and be "cool" with - but we can't expect to receive the same outcome as everyone else in the next life. We are all different and we will all receive different outcomes.

Unless, of course, we strive to do everything that God has commanded us because He has made promises to us all that if we are obedient to His commandments then we will receive certain outcomes in the life to come.

God is also always "not cool" with us because we commit sin and sin alienates us from God. He is a perfected Being and cannot dwell with imperfect Beings because those of a lower glory (or kingdom) cannot abide the glory of a higher kingdom. It is not possible.

However, because He loves us, He gave His Son as an eternal sacrifice for sin and if we but rely on the Son - His merits and grace - we can eventually overcome those things that separate us from God - sin and death - and eventually become perfected and live with Him again.

To be clear - no one achieves perfection in this life - no one can keep all of God's commandments in this life - but if we do our best and rely on the Lord Jesus Christ - it is possible to achieve perfection after this life.

So, to answer your question, it is my belief that God desires your cousin to be perfected through His Son - who was sent to the world as a sacrifice on her behalf - which would include learning of Him, following His example and giving up her sins.

God has also taught that sexual relations should only be between a man and woman who are legally and lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

Whatever your cousin decides to do with this information - God will honor and "be cool" with - but He cannot extend all the promised outcomes to her if she decides not to be obedient to His commands.

I am super glad that I am not going to judge anyone. I can't predict or assume anyone's eventual outcome after this life. All I can do is share what I believe to be true.
And the same God is not cool with my heterosexual mother marrying a heterosexual man long after she was no longer able to "multiply after her kind?"
Your mother's inability to have children has no bearing on her willingness to be obedient to God's commands. That is all He asks. That we are willing to try our best to do as He commands.

All of us are filled with weaknesses. He asks us to be obedient despite our weaknesses. He claims that if we allow our weaknesses to humble us, thus causing us to rely on His strength - He will make our weaknesses into strengths.
 
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Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I do not believe that my God is any different than your God or anyone else's God. I believe there to be only one.

My belief is that God is both "cool" and "not cool" with her or any of us.

Then your God is very different from my God, and they cannot be the same God. Because "my" God is cool with all of us no matter what we are. Why would he be so petty as to be concerned with our sexuality? Does he not have enough to do?
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
What about those of us who don't believe in your God? Or in my case that if he does exist, and is just another deity running amok, has no authority over me, and his wishes are not binding on me. Wha'bout dat?
I don't understand people like you.

You asked me to share my beliefs about sin and homosexuality and I did so.

That's it. That is all that happened here.

However, you decided to get offended and are now acting as if I said you needed to do something?

You don't have to agree with me. You don't have to believe in God. You don't have to do anything.

If anyone asks me to share my beliefs with them I will gladly do so.

You perverted this whole thing by attributing some sort of motive to my sharing. Shared because you asked.
And if, as you've been protesting that these are only your beliefs, why does the subject matter so much?
It honestly doesn't.

If you read my initial posts on this thread you would have learned that I don't care about this lesbian wedding commercial at all.

I only took issue with the fact that forum members were referring to OMM as a "hate group" and calling them "bullies".

I don't agree with OMM's decision to protest the commercial, but that doesn't mean they should be considered hateful bullies.

Our discussion only got heated once people started misrepresenting what I said and claimed that I said things I never did.
That is to say, that I live and sleep with another man, albeit legally married under US law, how does that affect you or any other marriage?
I don't believe it is a real marriage. That's it.

Now, you can decide to be offended by that if you want, or we can just agree to disagree.

Just don't lie about me and my beliefs.
Why do you care? This is what I don't understand about those who are against same sex marriage. What is it to you?
Why do vegetarians care when people eat meat?

Why do environmentalists care when they see someone driving a humvee?

Why do Christians claim homosexuality is sinful?

We all have our beliefs and issues that we are passionate about.

The key difference here is you came to me and asked me to share.

I didn't disturb your steak dinner.

I didn't give you black lung with my gas-guzzler.

I wasn't on a soap box crying, "Shame!"

I addressed the questions about my beliefs you posed to me.

That's as deep as I went. I honestly invested nothing more.

I only became irritated when people started lying about what I said and about my beliefs.
 
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JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
You're going to have to do a bit of clarifying on this post, Tom. I think it goes without saying that I'm probably the most non-traditional practicing Latter-day Saint on this forum. But to describe Warren Jeffs as "traditional" is absurd. In what sense do you see him as traditional? And to say that his behavior was supported by his religious community is really misleading. What religious community might that have been?
Hey! It's the supposedly "less-traditional" member of the Church!

You seem to be a metric for members of the Church on this site. Kudos!

What does everyone mean by "traditional" and why do you consider yourself "non-that"?
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
If you'd rather tell yourself that the rest of us are all just having some mass delusion because we all came to the same conclusion after reading your posts, and you don't like that, then I guess there's nothing more to say, and your arguments are no longer worth entertaining. Because you are just kidding yourself.
Yeah, like I didn't notice you backpedaling. Moving the goal post.

At first you claimed that I only "mentioned" pedophilia (when I actually only "mentioned" an attraction to children).

That turned quickly into me "comparing" the two which everyone argued meant that I believed that raping children was the "same" or "similar" to having consensual sex with a same-sex partner.

However, that argument stagnated after I quoted where I said that I was not claiming that these weaknesses were "exactly the same".

You then said that all of your collective arguments that I compared the two were not arguments that they were "exactly the same", so I was still guilty of comparing them.

So, yeah, you don't even know what you are all agreeing and slapping each other on the back about. Most people here didn't even read my initial post.

This mass delusion began with you being perturbed that I mentioned an attraction to children in a discussion about inappropriate sexual attraction. You just don't like the fact that I believe homosexuality is sinful.

My "arguments" have been the same since the beginning, "I clearly stated that I was not comparing pedophilia to homosexuality."

Even if I was not as clear as I believed myself to be, you'd think everyone on this thread would know now that I don't believe pedophilia and homosexuality are the same or similar after all the time I've dedicated to claiming thus.

However, since you are all unreasonable and knee-deep in your mass delusion - you keep moving the goal posts and misrepresenting my beliefs.
Also, you've brought up Godwin's Law more than once on the thread. So there's that.:shrug:
Godwin's law - Wikipedia
Yeah, I brought it up to a guy who believes that I should be arrested, assaulted or killed for sharing my opinion.

Sounds like a "Hitler-move" to me.
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
That's strange to me, because my experience has been largely and mostly people mind their own business. Even in "conservative" Bakersfield, people generally don't butt in and intrude into your life and business. I've gotten no grief over being white, from no one of any ethnicity here, and I'm definitely pale white for the area.
I suppose it depends on how social you are.

I mean, if you're a recluse, then yeah - no one is going to bother you much.

I got most of the grief from when I was in school and at work.
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
Then your God is very different from my God, and they cannot be the same God. Because "my" God is cool with all of us no matter what we are. Why would he be so petty as to be concerned with our sexuality? Does he not have enough to do?
We are all that He cares about. Our development is His work and His glory. He wants us to be perfect.

I believe that "your" God makes a pretty lousy God and parent.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Hey! It's the supposedly "less-traditional" member of the Church!
:D

You seem to be a metric for members of the Church on this site. Kudos!
Not really. I've just been hanging around the forum for almost 15 years, and with nearly 30,000 posts, I'm probably better-known to other RFers than most members of the Church.

What does everyone mean by "traditional" and why do you consider yourself "non-that"?
I'm just kind of a square peg trying to fit into a round hole. I'm considerably more liberal (not just politically but otherwise) than most Latter-day Saints. As an example, I am quite vocal in defending LGBT rights, and have marched with a group called "Mormons Building Bridges" in Salt Lake City's Pride Parade for something like 8 years running. I have a current temple recommend and I do attend the temple fairly regularly. But if I were to be totally honest, I'd rather spend my time at the Salt Lake Metro Jail where I've been called (along with my husband) as a Sunday School teacher to the inmates. I am also not afraid to speak out when I disagree with Church policy. For years and years and years, I was adamant in saying that I felt temple-worthy couples who wanted (for whatever reason) to have a civil marriage first and then be sealed (later that same day, the next day, the next month or whenever) ought to be able to do so without having to wait for an entire year. I had to listen to countless fellow Church members criticize me for daring to disagree with the Brethren. And now look what has happened: Last May the rule was changed. So now (at least for the time being), I'm no longer a heretic in the eyes of some of my peers. (Incidentally, my signature is a pretty good indicator of how I see myself.)

To be clear... I have a strong testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and am tremendously grateful to have been born and raised LDS.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't understand people like you.

You asked me to share my beliefs about sin and homosexuality and I did so.

That's it. That is all that happened here.

However, you decided to get offended and are now acting as if I said you needed to do something?

You don't have to agree with me. You don't have to believe in God. You don't have to do anything.

If anyone asks me to share my beliefs with them I will gladly do so.

You perverted this whole thing by attributing some sort of motive to my sharing. Shared because you asked.

It honestly doesn't.

If you read my initial posts on this thread you would have learned that I don't care about this lesbian wedding commercial at all.

I only took issue with the fact that forum members were referring to OMM as a "hate group" and calling them "bullies".

I don't agree with OMM's decision to protest the commercial, but that doesn't mean they should be considered hateful bullies.

Our discussion only got heated once people started misrepresenting what I said and claimed that I said things I never did.

I don't believe it is a real marriage. That's it.

Now, you can decide to be offended by that if you want, or we can just agree to disagree.

Just don't lie about me and my beliefs.

Why do vegetarians care when people eat meat?

Why do environmentalists care when they see someone driving a humvee?

Why do Christians claim homosexuality is sinful?

We all have our beliefs and issues that we are passionate about.

The key difference here is you came to me and asked me to share.

I didn't disturb your steak dinner.

I didn't give you black lung with my gas-guzzler.

I wasn't on a soap box crying, "Shame!"

I addressed the questions about my beliefs you posed to me.

That's as deep as I went. I honestly invested nothing more.

I only became irritated when people started lying about what I said and about my beliefs.

Stop pretending your comments are oh so innocent opinions and crying persecution when you’re called out on what they are... preaching. Cut the crap.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
We are all that He cares about. Our development is His work and His glory. He wants us to be perfect.

I believe that "your" God makes a pretty lousy God and parent.

Why is God a glory hound? Why do we need a parent? If he wants us to be perfect he’s done a pretty crappy job.
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
:D

Not really. I've just been hanging around the forum for almost 15 years, and with nearly 30,000 posts, I'm probably better-known to other RFers than most members of the Church.

I'm just kind of a square peg trying to fit into a round hole. I'm considerably more liberal (not just politically but otherwise) than most Latter-day Saints. As an example, I am quite vocal in defending LGBT rights, and have marched with a group called "Mormons Building Bridges" in Salt Lake City's Pride Parade for something like 8 years running. I have a current temple recommend and I do attend the temple fairly regularly. But if I were to be totally honest, I'd rather spend my time at the Salt Lake Metro Jail where I've been called (along with my husband) as a Sunday School teacher to the inmates. I am also not afraid to speak out when I disagree with Church policy. For years and years and years, I was adamant in saying that I felt temple-worthy couples who wanted (for whatever reason) to have a civil marriage first and then be sealed (later that same day, the next day, the next month or whenever) ought to be able to do so without having to wait for an entire year. I had to listen to countless fellow Church members criticize me for daring to disagree with the Brethren. And now look what has happened: Last May the rule was changed. So now (at least for the time being), I'm no longer a heretic in the eyes of some of my peers. (Incidentally, my signature is a pretty good indicator of how I see myself.)

To be clear... I have a strong testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and am tremendously grateful to have been born and raised LDS.
Congrats on your activity here and in the Church.

I don't understand why what you shared with me means you are a "square peg".

To my knowledge, the Church has always been an advocate of LGBT rights - so you aren't "square" for marching in that parade.

I understand why you'd prefer do teach a Sunday School class rather than go to the Temple - Endowment can be boring - but I just tell myself that I'm not doing it for me, but for whoever I'm standing in proxy for - so you aren't "square" in that regard either.

I had no idea that they changed the policy about civil marriages.

My wife's family aren't members, so I had to have a ceremony outside of the Temple too. I got sealed the day before. Even though I cannot come up with a reason for why a Temple-worthy couple could not be sealed first before having such a ceremony - you disagreeing with Church policy isn't "square peg-y".

I mean, if they can dissolve the High Priest Group, make us into ministering members rather than home teachers and finally take us to just two hours on Sunday - there's no reason to assume we can't question Church policy.

Do you live in the "Happy Valley"?
 
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