• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Now that is going in my file of quotable quotes....what a ripper! ;)

It was copied from the members own profile, how good was the member to me, they posted a rebuttable from me :D;)

Hope all is good for you Deeje, they were horrific times down there.

Regards Tony
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It was copied from the members own profile, how good was the member to me, they posted a rebuttable from me :D;)

Hope all is good for you Deeje, they were horrific times down there.

Regards Tony

Thanks Tony, its been a rough trot, but we are getting some much needed drizzly rain here at the moment. Its not heavy enough to put out the fires, but welcome none the less. I can hear the parched lawns and gardens drinking it in. It will help with the regrowth of the forests decimated by the fires and help the surviving animals to gain their food back. Lots of people are leaving food and water out for the roos and wombats. Possums too. I just hope the impact on the bees and other insects is fixable. So many creatures lost....the koalas have been hit hard and they were struggling to begin with. I just hope all the money raised will go to where its needed. :(
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Nonsense! Whatever you believe that has no evidence for your belief requires faith as that is the very definition of faith. If you believe there is no God and you have no evidence for your belief then you have to have faith to be an athiest if you cannot prove there is no God. Your just trading one belief you cannot prove for another that has no evidence for which you need faith. :)
I am not about to get into a battle of wits with you.
You are unarmed.
Thus the victory would be hollow and meaningless.
Now if at some later date you are able to understand what is being said to you and want to try again...
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Emphasis mine..

Well that is not true. I already posted the Oxford Dictionaries definition that atheism is the disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. It seems you do not know what faith is. :)
Here is a prime example.
You are arguing against your own provided definition...
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
It was copied from the members own profile, how good was the member to me, they posted a rebuttable from me :D;)
Actually, it is my signature.

"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."
~ Bertrand Russell​

And your use only stroked your own ego, since you replied with it instead of addressing the point.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Let me try to clarify this. A rational person withholds belief until sufficient evidence for a claim is given.

Ok so you believe that there is no God and you have no evidence that there is no God. How is that rational?

Withholding belief is not a statement that someone else is right or wrong.

Your not withholding your belief. You believe that there is no God and you have no evidence for your belief which means your faith is that you believe there is no God.

You could look at a gumball machine and say "There are fiftysix gumballs in that machine. I would probably not believe that. Now that is not saying that there are not fifty-six gumballs in that machine, I am just saying that I am not convinced by a claim with no evidence.

Someone can say that there is 56 gumballs in a gumball machine without evidence then is it faith just the same as someone that does not believe there is 56 gumballs in the machine who does not have evidence that there is not 56 gumballs. Faith is something you have when you do not have evidence.

As was pointed out already the standard without sufficient evidence is a state of non-belief.

You have not pointed anything out as you have no evidence for your faith which is you do not believe that there is a God. :)
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Is not being an entomologist a hobby of yours?
You can't prove a negative. Like how you can't prove you are ever truly alone.

No entomology has never been my hobby. Some people believe in God and some people do not believe that there is a God. Evidence swings each way to prove a belief. Do you have evidence that there is no God? If you do not than you only believe what you do by faith.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
3rdAngel said: Nonsense! Whatever you believe that has no evidence for your belief requires faith as that is the very definition of faith. If you believe there is no God and you have no evidence for your belief then you have to have faith to be an athiest if you cannot prove there is no God. Your just trading one belief you cannot prove for another that has no evidence for which you need faith.
Your response..
I am not about to get into a battle of wits with you.
You are unarmed. Thus the victory would be hollow and meaningless. Now if at some later date you are able to understand what is being said to you and want to try again...
ZZz Sorry did you say something? :)
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
3rdAngel said: Well that is not true. I already posted the Oxford Dictionaries definition that atheism is the disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. It seems you do not know what faith is.
Your response...
Emphasis mine.. Here is a prime example. You are arguing against your own provided definition...

Disbelief, lack of belief, nonbelief means not to believe. In the case of atheism, in the existence of God. If you have no evidence for your belief then your belief is based on faith :)
 
Last edited:

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
JW's have made no suggestions about a timeframe for the end of the system of things, since 1975. People seem to think that we made prophesies, but we never did. All we did was suggest time frames for the prophesies that already existed concerning the time of the end. It is quite apparent that God has things under control in his own timeframe. (Matthew 24:36) Having said that, the ones who were disappointed about the failure of things to materialize back then, allowed their disappointments to alter their relationship with God. No one was ever told about a 'day or hour'....there were merely suggestions made that a certain year may be it. I was there in 1975, so I know exactly what was said. It was something to look forward to....to serve as an anchor in a changing world....we had no idea how much it would change in the next 45 years. Those who stumbled over the failure of the Kingdom to come, were sifted out because they proved that they were serving their own interests. When we sign up to serve God, it has no timeframe. We are with him no matter how long it takes.

Here is a timeline of failed predictions:

Predictions (by date of publication) include:

  • 1877: Christ's kingdom would hold full sway over the earth in 1914; the Jews, as a people, would be restored to God's favor; the "saints" would be carried to heaven.[28]
  • 1891: 1914 would be "the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men."[29]
  • 1904: "World-wide anarchy" would follow the end of the Gentile Times in 1914.[30]
  • 1916: World War I would terminate in Armageddon and the rapture of the "saints".[31]
  • 1917: In 1918, Christendom would go down as a system to oblivion and be succeeded by revolutionary governments. God would "destroy the churches wholesale and the church members by the millions." Church members would "perish by the sword of war, revolution and anarchy." The dead would lie unburied. In 1920 all earthly governments would disappear, with worldwide anarchy prevailing.[32]
  • 1920: Messiah's kingdom would be established in 1925 and bring worldwide peace. God would begin restoring the earth. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and other faithful patriarchs would be resurrected to perfect human life and be made princes and rulers, the visible representatives of the New Order on earth. Those who showed themselves obedient to God would never die.[33]
  • 1922: The anti-typical "jubilee" that would mark God's intervention in earthly affairs would take place "probably the fall" of 1925.[34]
  • 1925: God's restoration of Earth would begin "shortly after" October 1, 1925. Jerusalem would be made the world's capital. Resurrected "princes" such as Abel, Noah, Moses and John the Baptist would give instructions to their subjects around the world by radio, and airplanes would transport people to and from Jerusalem from all parts of the globe in just "a few hours".[35]
  • 1938: Armageddon was too close for marriage or child bearing.[36]
  • 1941: There were only "months" remaining until Armageddon.[37]
  • 1942: Armageddon was "immediately before us."[38]
  • 1961: Awake! magazine stated that Armageddon "will come in the twentieth century. ... This generation will see its fulfillment."[39]
  • 1966: It would be 6000 years since man's creation in the fall of 1975 and it would be "appropriate" for Christ's thousand-year reign to begin at that time.[40] Time was "running out, no question about that."[41] The "immediate future" was "certain to be filled with climactic events ... within a few years at most", the final parts of Bible prophecy relating to the "last days" would undergo fulfillment as Christ's reign began.
  • 1967: The end-time period (beginning in 1914) was claimed to be so far advanced that the time remaining could "be compared, not just to the last day of a week, but rather, to the last part of that day".[42]
  • 1968: No one could say "with certainty" that the battle of Armageddon would begin in 1975, but time was "running out rapidly" with "earthshaking events" soon to take place.[43] In March 1968 there was a "short period of time left", with "only about ninety months left before 6000 years of man's existence on earth is completed".[44]
  • 1969: The existing world order would not last long enough for young people to grow old; the world system would end "in a few years." Young Witnesses were told not to bother pursuing tertiary education for this reason.[45]
  • 1971: The "battle in the day of Jehovah" was described as beginning "Shortly, within our twentieth century".[46]
    [*]1974: There was just a "short time remaining before the wicked world's end" and Witnesses were commended for selling their homes and property to "finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service."[47]
    [*]1984: There were "many indications" that "the end" was closer than the end of the 20th century.[48]
    [*]1989: The Watchtower asserted that Christian missionary work begun in the first century would "be completed in our 20th century".[49] When the magazine was republished in bound volumes, the phrase "in our 20th century" was replaced with the less specific "in our day".

    Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia

  • Its sobering reading. So when I hear what a dark place the world is and the end will come soon, I am sceptical. You should be too. Doomsday prophecy has been going on for a long time. It appeals to people with a certain psychology. The world as we know it is about the end. We are the special ones, the last hope and refugee for humanity. Everyone else is under the influence of Satan. That narrative preys on people’s fears and anxieties about the future. But its what gives your life meaning and hope.

  • Having been raised in Christendom and learning about others faiths in my search for God 40 odd years ago, I had never heard of Baha'i until I came to this forum. As there appears to be some disagreement among your members here it became apparent to me that not all were speaking in agreement. That is what drew me to JW's in the first place...their love for Jehovah and his word....their global unity in all accepting the same beliefs, and their desire to follow ALL the teachings of Jesus Christ (though none can do it perfectly) and the fact that all of them are preachers, as Christ instructed. (Matthew 28:19-20) They use the Bible as the basis for all their beliefs.....not the teachings or traditions of men.
    Jesus said that he would be 'with' his disciples in a global disciple making work....and I believe he has. It is not something you can do in a sustained way for a hundred years without the holy spirit.

    I grew up Christian too. I like Christians as with peoples of all faiths. Baha’is are encouraged to associate with peoples of all faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship, wholly for the sake of God, not so we can convert them.

    There are certainly more JWs in both Australia and New Zealand than Baha’is, not that numbers are so important. According to the last census in Australia there are approximately 82 thousand JWs and 14 thousand Baha’is. So you outnumber us about 6:1. Our numbers are growing from about 9 thousand in 1996 to 14 thousand in 2016.

    Worldwide the numbers are not so different between our faiths as we are well established in every culture including Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist.

    It appears to me the Baha’i presence on this forum is not too dissimilar to the JWs. We do not shun and cast others out. We tolerate diversity and differences. The Teachings of our faith are very clear and there are no schism amongst the Baha’is as there are in Christianity.
 
Last edited:

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The Bible says that "the whole world lies under satan's power'. (1 John 5:19) From what I see, I do not doubt that for a moment. Corruption is everywhere. Satan himself claimed that 'all the Kingdoms of the world' were his to give to whomever he wished (Luke 4:5-8) Its hard to fight an enemy who has convinced you that he doesn't exist.

We also have the destruction of "Babylon the great" in Revelation and God's people are told to get out of her if we do not want to share in her destruction. Her practices are said to be spiritistic so she is the religious part of satan's system. (Revelation 18:4-5) Her passing is lamented by the two other powerful entities that govern satan's world....politics and commerce.

Baha’is don’t believe in Satan as you know but its one dark narrative when its phrased this way. Baha’is don’t become involved in partisan politics. We are free to vote in elections but not run for a political posts and avoid criticism of government. Instead we are exhorted to obey the laws of the land.

The Bible never disagrees with true and provable science....it disagrees with scientific theories that are not provable. Big difference.

The Bible doesn’t but if you believe there was a world wide flood a few thousand years back around the time of Noah then that contradicts science.

I think I can safely leave the plausibility in God's hands since he is the one who plans to carry it out. You can believe a self professed prophet but not the Creator of the Universe...? That is for you to determine.

Jesus professed Himself to be a Prophet as did Muhammad, the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh. They all had the authority from God to make the claims they did.

There is no positive way to change the world unless you can change the attitudes of all the people......can Baha'i's do that?
The Bible says that man will never bring about the changes that are needed....humans are too greedy and too selfish. Any efforts by humans to address the problems that they have created are usually too little...too late. Like the firestorm sweeping Australia at present.....failure to manage the bush like the native Australians used to before white settlement, has resulted in a holocaust of unimaginable proportions. The world is breathing our smoke!

There we go again with this dark view of humanity being selfish and greedy. Do some research and you will find people are living much longer than they used, there is less poverty and better levels of education and health throughout the world. Try dealing with actual facts rather than negative rhetoric about the human condition.

One challenge for humanity where we really need to cooperate is global warming. Its within our grasp to do something and there will be less extremes of weather and less bushfires.

The natural Jews today are just as able to respond to the good news of the Kingdom as anyone else. We have congregations in Israel. All of Jesus' first disciples were Jewish. The reason why there is still animosity is because of their denial that Jews were responsible for the death of the Messiah. They still hotly deny it.
Jesus' words in Matthew 23:37-39 express God's feelings on the matter.

Pleased to hear your only partially anti-Semitic.

It is becoming darker by the day. We know that people are waking up because we have never been busier answering their many questions about the state it is in and where things are heading. They can clearly see that a big change is coming but they are not sure where it will come from. Drawing on the Bible, we can help them see where we are in the stream of time and what the Bible says will happen in the immediate future. "Like the days of Noah" Jesus said....(Matthew 24:37-39)

No its not becoming darker by the day.

The word "contributes" is key in your argument IMO. How many are really 'contributing' to a more peaceful world? There are no Baha'i's where I live, so how do you function as a global brotherhood in places where you have no congregations? I have lived in a few places, city and country, and there are always JW's there.

What the Bible predicts is not at all dependent on man. It will come as a shock as most will be caught unawares just as the people in Noah's day were. Jesus told us to 'keep in expectation of his return' because he will come as a thief.....no warning.

Matthew 24:42-44....
"Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

43 “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it."

I guess you’ve completely ignored everything I said about the positive changes in the world in my last post and how that is due to the contributions of millions, not just a few. It doesn’t matter whether they are Baha’is or not.

From where I’m standing your going to be waiting a very long time for Christ to come.

The changes that God's Kingdom will bring about are not due to anything humans will accomplish....we will not have to wait centuries for its blessings to be experienced inch by inch. The healing that Jesus performed was instantaneous, so there is no reason for humans to continue to suffer whilst the Kingdom rules. All opposers will be gone and all will be made well and secure from harm....suffering and pain and even death will be no more. (Revelation 21:2-4)
That sounds a whole lot better to me than what Baha'u'llah is suggesting.

The world has changed dramatically over the last 150 years and will continue to do so.

Actually Jesus did not establish a new religion independent of the Jewish faith....what he did was try to show people how to worship their God under a new covenant that he established on the night before his death. He used their scripture to teach them about it. It was stated in Jeremiah that this new covenant would be established but not many wanted to alter the status quo. "Judaism" was not the religion of their forefathers instituted with Jehovah on Mt Sinai. It is what men created to facilitate their own importance. Christendom did exactly the same thing....man-made traditions were nothing to do with God. Never taught by Jesus.

The Christian Church was exactly what Jesus intended as it was established under the guidance of His apostles.

God doesn't change...that is why his word is as valid today as the day it was written. What teachings of Jesus are invalid for today? Why would God change to suit the whims of men? Why is "modern" even a term of reference? It is meaningless in a Biblical context.

Jesus didn’t teach abolition of slavery, democracy or the equality of men and women.

You can accept his revelation if you wish.....he is not a prophet I could ever recognize. He has no real credentials.....

I’m not trying to convince you to become a Baha’i.

IOW your prophet endorsed the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church? :facepalm:

How can this claim be made when Baha'i's do not follow all the teachings of Jesus Christ? The RCC doesn't follow them either. You seem to pick and choose which ones suit you and ignore the rest....Christendom does the same.

Luke 6:44...as Jesus said...
“Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say?" :shrug:

Seriously. So let’s get this straight. You don’t believe in the core tenants of Christianity!?

1/ Was Jesus the Son of God?
2/ How about the Divinity of Jesus?
3/ Was Jesus born to the Virgin Mary?
4/ Did Jesus appoint Peter as His successor?
5/ Do you believe in the Divine origins of Christianity?
6/ How about the Divine inspiration of the New Testament?
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
If you have no evidence for your belief then your belief is based on faith.
I agree.
And no matter how much you jump up and down screaming otherwise,
I do not believe that god does not exist.
I ALSO do not believe that god exists.

Thus I have no belief either way.
Thus no faith involved.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
3rdAngel said: Nonsense. To not believe in God is still a belief. It is a belief that one does not believe in God.
Your response...
Next you will argue that not collecting stamps is a hobby?
Your post is simply a distraction in order to avoid what you are quoting from and does not answer the post you are responding to.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
I agree.
And no matter how much you jump up and down screaming otherwise,
I do not believe that god does not exist.
I ALSO do not believe that god exists.

Thus I have no belief either way.
Thus no faith involved.

I am not jumping up and down screaming about anything only showing why your earlier claims also apply to you. If you do not believe God exists and you cannot prove it then your belief is based on faith. You are free to believe as you wish even if you do not have any evidence for your belief :)
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Ok so you believe that there is no God and you have no evidence that there is no God. How is that rational?
:)

You sure you want to make this claim?

By that, you are irrational for refusing to believe
in unicorns and mermaids.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
You breathe don't you?
It is somewhat hard to believe that you feel this to be an adequate demonstration of something that God has done, or is doing. You have absolutely no way to tie my breathing or the mechanisms behind my breathing to God. None. The only thing you have is "because The Bible told me so" or "my religious leaders told me so." That's it. And it's just not good enough.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
It is somewhat hard to believe that you feel this to be an adequate demonstration of something that God has done, or is doing. You have absolutely no way to tie my breathing or the mechanisms behind my breathing to God. None. The only thing you have is "because The Bible told me so" or "my religious leaders told me so." That's it. And it's just not good enough.

It is not much of a connection, for sure.

But, it has a fine if unintended meaning.
It is good compact demonstration of how little
actual thought goes into forming some people's
beliefs.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
The approach each person takes to their faith is one issue. Another is what exactly is the foundation of that faith? There are many factors to consider here, not just whether one is either lukewarm or somewhat of a zealot.

1/ What scriptures if any do the practitioners of a given faith rely on. For example the New Testament, Tanakh, Quran, Buddhist Pali Canon, Vedas or some other text? Some religions have no scriptures, for example pagan religions.

2/ To what extent do practitioners of a religion rely on reason, science, the knowledge and wisdom of others, and the wisdom acquired through experience (in other words what any other sensible person would do).



But there are tried and tested methods. Reason, experience and considering the advice of others whom we respect work well for most of us. It is exactly the same process for may theists who in addition may glean wisdom and inspiration from their sacred writings.



It is true that a medical doctor can not continue to practice medicine if his methods are out of date. He will soon come to the attention of regulatory authorities who will rightly evaluate his practice and either make recommendations for continuing professional development that he updates his practice or deem him incompetent and revoke his licence to practice.

The problem with many religious practitioners is there are no consistent regulatory body and where there is that body itself is out of date. So we may have a Christian who insists that the earth is no older than 10,000 years old based on literal interpretation of Genesis, yet totally disregards the overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary. The acceptance or denial of science is just as much a religious principle as being truthful, courteous and loving towards others.



I've addressed that point above.



In regards the New Testament, which is the book the OP follows, it is the most studied book in the world over the last few centuries. Given how long ago its 27 books were written it is remarkable how it has stood the test of time and remains a credible source of inspiration and guidance to so many throughout the world. However there will always be limitations in applying the learnings of what was written down two thousand years ago to our modern era.
Dubious.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Nonsense! You believe there is no God yet you have no evidence that there is no God so you have to have faith there is no God..

Please quit insulting me and calling me ugly names: here you literally call me a liar.

Worse-- you appear to have Magical Telepathy, in that you think YOU KNOW what I believe or do not believe!

That's INCREDIBLE! Why don't you take your TELEPATHY on the ROAD and make MILLIONS?

No? You do not have telepathy? You do NOT KNOW what I do or do not believe after all?

Yeah... I have no faith either way-- I wait for God to Speak. I expect God to Speak GODLY-- and never need to use insults like YOU.

Thanks! You confirm my observation that YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE OF ANY SORT: OR INSTEAD OF INSULTING, YOU WOULD USE EVIDENCE, INSTEAD.


There is no default only what you believe or do not believe and what you have evidence for and do not have evidence for..

False: Do babies have faith? Of course not! Do kittens or puppies have faith? OF COURSE NOT.

THE DEFAULT IS NOT HAVING FAITH UNTIL SOMEONE STARTS TELLING LIES.


If you believe there is no God and you do not have evidence for your belief then you have to have faith that there is no God as you do not have evidence for your belief you have to have faith there is no God. .

The above is puerile NONSENSE. You may well have said, "Goo! Gaha! Goo-goo---GAHH... gek? GOOO! "

What evidence do you have that there is no God?

YOU. YOU ARE 100% CERTAIN EVIDENCE. No god worthy of the name would suffer YOU to represent it's interests.

The bible is quite clear: It's god quickly murders any and all who DARE to speak for it, without permission.

You are still here.... obviously. Therefore? Your god isn't. Game. Set. Match
 
Top