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Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It is plain to see Charles Taze was no Prophet and you have no Prophets in your Church. Regardless, the problem is your organisations makes predictions about the future that don't eventuate so there is no reason to believe your branch of Christendom over other branches. In fact being consistently wrong provides reason enough to follow a branch of Christianity that has the good sense not to make predictions at all let alone those that don't come to pass.

JW's have made no suggestions about a timeframe for the end of the system of things, since 1975. People seem to think that we made prophesies, but we never did. All we did was suggest time frames for the prophesies that already existed concerning the time of the end. It is quite apparent that God has things under control in his own timeframe. (Matthew 24:36) Having said that, the ones who were disappointed about the failure of things to materialize back then, allowed their disappointments to alter their relationship with God. No one was ever told about a 'day or hour'....there were merely suggestions made that a certain year may be it. I was there in 1975, so I know exactly what was said. It was something to look forward to....to serve as an anchor in a changing world....we had no idea how much it would change in the next 45 years. Those who stumbled over the failure of the Kingdom to come, were sifted out because they proved that they were serving their own interests. When we sign up to serve God, it has no timeframe. We are with him no matter how long it takes.

It is true JWs are poorly regarded amongst Christians as a whole. Just because others think you are wrong doesn't mean you are right. Sometimes people think others are wrong because they clearly are wrong.

Having been raised in Christendom and learning about others faiths in my search for God 40 odd years ago, I had never heard of Baha'i until I came to this forum. As there appears to be some disagreement among your members here it became apparent to me that not all were speaking in agreement. That is what drew me to JW's in the first place...their love for Jehovah and his word....their global unity in all accepting the same beliefs, and their desire to follow ALL the teachings of Jesus Christ (though none can do it perfectly) and the fact that all of them are preachers, as Christ instructed. (Matthew 28:19-20) They use the Bible as the basis for all their beliefs.....not the teachings or traditions of men.
Jesus said that he would be 'with' his disciples in a global disciple making work....and I believe he has. It is not something you can do in a sustained way for a hundred years without the holy spirit.

The more I become familiar with the beliefs of the JWs the less impressed I become.

1/ It is an organisation you seem to view every other organisation as under the domain of Satan whether religious or political.

The Bible says that "the whole world lies under satan's power'. (1 John 5:19) From what I see, I do not doubt that for a moment. Corruption is everywhere. Satan himself claimed that 'all the Kingdoms of the world' were his to give to whomever he wished (Luke 4:5-8) Its hard to fight an enemy who has convinced you that he doesn't exist.

We also have the destruction of "Babylon the great" in Revelation and God's people are told to get out of her if we do not want to share in her destruction. Her practices are said to be spiritistic so she is the religious part of satan's system. (Revelation 18:4-5) Her passing is lamented by the two other powerful entities that govern satan's world....politics and commerce.

2/ Basic science seems to be discarded so your literal biblical interpretations can be accommodated.

The Bible never disagrees with true and provable science....it disagrees with scientific theories that are not provable. Big difference.

3/ The JW beliefs about an impending apocalypse based on literal interpretation of the book of revelation are extremely implausible.

I think I can safely leave the plausibility in God's hands since he is the one who plans to carry it out. You can believe a self professed prophet but not the Creator of the Universe...? That is for you to determine.

4/ The overall result is the JWs become disengaged with the actual work God requires of us to make the world a better place. Instead I hear JWs complaining about how bad the world is and an unwillingness to take positive action to make things better because of the impending apocalypse.

There is no positive way to change the world unless you can change the attitudes of all the people......can Baha'i's do that?
The Bible says that man will never bring about the changes that are needed....humans are too greedy and too selfish. Any efforts by humans to address the problems that they have created are usually too little...too late. Like the firestorm sweeping Australia at present.....failure to manage the bush like the native Australians used to before white settlement, has resulted in a holocaust of unimaginable proportions. The world is breathing our smoke!

With the passing of two thousand years and the persecution of Jews leading to the extermination of millions of Jews, the time to move on from blaming the Jews and rehashing the same old stuff is long past.

The natural Jews today are just as able to respond to the good news of the Kingdom as anyone else. We have congregations in Israel. All of Jesus' first disciples were Jewish. The reason why there is still animosity is because of their denial that Jews were responsible for the death of the Messiah. They still hotly deny it.
Jesus' words in Matthew 23:37-39 express God's feelings on the matter.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Jesus also criticised the people of His day for not being able to read the signs of the times (Matthew 16:3). You have this extremely dim and dark view of the world.

It is becoming darker by the day. We know that people are waking up because we have never been busier answering their many questions about the state it is in and where things are heading. They can clearly see that a big change is coming but they are not sure where it will come from. Drawing on the Bible, we can help them see where we are in the stream of time and what the Bible says will happen in the immediate future. "Like the days of Noah" Jesus said....(Matthew 24:37-39)

For Baha'is world peace is not only possible but inevitable. Whether it comes about through cooperation or unimaginable horrors is a choice before humanity. We are part of humanity so our attitudes and actions can contribute towards peace or retard its progress.

The word "contributes" is key in your argument IMO. How many are really 'contributing' to a more peaceful world? There are no Baha'i's where I live, so how do you function as a global brotherhood in places where you have no congregations? I have lived in a few places, city and country, and there are always JW's there.

What the Bible predicts is not at all dependent on man. It will come as a shock as most will be caught unawares just as the people in Noah's day were. Jesus told us to 'keep in expectation of his return' because he will come as a thief.....no warning.

Matthew 24:42-44....
"Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

43 “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it."


I presented to you before a list of positive social changes since the nineteenth century that are essential to a peaceful world.

1/ All peoples are increasingly seen as equal regardless of race, ethnicity, nationality or religious affiliation.

2/ Universal education has been progressively implemented throughout the globe.

3/ The equality of men and women has been firmly established at most levels of society.

4/ There are unprecedented levels of international cooperation and agencies for socioeconomic development.

5/ Democratic institutions have become the preferred model of government at a local and national level.

6/ Slavery has largely been abolished.

These are all Teachings of the Baha'i Faith. Of course its everyone that's on board to some extent. The Baha'i Faith is a relatively small community of about 5 - 10 million worldwide.

What are the consequences for the world?

1/ The amount of deaths due to international conflict has dramatically decreased in the twenty-first century.

2/ People are living longer and are more prosperous.

3/ Levels of education have increased greatly.

There are many problems in the world of course, but on the whole humanity appears to be heading in the right direction. So perhaps you should better heed the Words of Jesus and consider the signs more attentively.

The changes that God's Kingdom will bring about are not due to anything humans will accomplish....we will not have to wait centuries for its blessings to be experienced inch by inch. The healing that Jesus performed was instantaneous, so there is no reason for humans to continue to suffer whilst the Kingdom rules. All opposers will be gone and all will be made well and secure from harm....suffering and pain and even death will be no more. (Revelation 21:2-4)
That sounds a whole lot better to me than what Baha'u'llah is suggesting.

The Baha'i Faith is an independent religion. It is neither a sect nor denomination of Christianity or Islam. Although Christianity emerged from Judaism, Christ established an independent religion independent from Judaism. In a similar manner, although the Baha'i faith emerged from Islam, our founder Baha'u'llah established an independent religion.

Actually Jesus did not establish a new religion independent of the Jewish faith....what he did was try to show people how to worship their God under a new covenant that he established on the night before his death. He used their scripture to teach them about it. It was stated in Jeremiah that this new covenant would be established but not many wanted to alter the status quo. "Judaism" was not the religion of their forefathers instituted with Jehovah on Mt Sinai. It is what men created to facilitate their own importance. Christendom did exactly the same thing....man-made traditions were nothing to do with God. Never taught by Jesus.

Baha'u'llah brought New Teachings that are suited for the modern age. Judaism is 3,500 years old, Christianity 2,000 years and Islam 1,400. Many of the Teachings revealed in these Faiths are no longer suited to the current age.

God doesn't change...that is why his word is as valid today as the day it was written. What teachings of Jesus are invalid for today? Why would God change to suit the whims of men? Why is "modern" even a term of reference? It is meaningless in a Biblical context.

Baha'is believe God progressively Reveals Himself. Judaism is based on the Teachings of Noah and Abraham. Christianity is based on Judaism. Islam is based on Judaism and Christianity. The Baha'i Faith is based on Judaism, Christianity and Islam. However like its predecessors, Baha'u'llah brought a new Revelation.

You can accept his revelation if you wish.....he is not a prophet I could ever recognize. He has no real credentials.....

You claim we are at odds with Christianity. That is not true. In regards the Baha'i Faith's position regarding Christianity:

As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.

IOW your prophet endorsed the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church? :facepalm:

How can this claim be made when Baha'i's do not follow all the teachings of Jesus Christ? The RCC doesn't follow them either. You seem to pick and choose which ones suit you and ignore the rest....Christendom does the same.

Luke 6:44...as Jesus said...
“Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say?" :shrug:
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
That does not describe me.

YOU say, "God exists" *I* say, "I do not believe you."

YOU say, "You have to have faith." *I* say, yes... that is why I do not believe you.

The DEFAULT state is: No god. Until (if ever) theists prove otherwise? "no god" remains.

What do you have that is evidence OF god? No? Nothing?

The category remains empty. No faith needed in the slightest.

Nonsense! You believe there is no God yet you have no evidence that there is no God so you have to have faith there is no God. There is no default only what you believe or do not believe and what you have evidence for and do not have evidence for. If you believe there is no God and you do not have evidence for your belief then you have to have faith that there is no God as you do not have evidence for your belief you have to have faith there is no God. What evidence do you have that there is no God? Yep nothing... :)
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
As an atheist, I lack a god belief.
No faith required. Why, because it is not a belief. Since I do not actively belief that god does not exist, Still no faith required. Your inability to understand that is a you problem.

Nonsense! Whatever you believe that has no evidence for your belief requires faith as that is the very definition of faith. If you believe there is no God and you have no evidence for your belief then you have to have faith to be an athiest if you cannot prove there is no God. Your just trading one belief you cannot prove for another that has no evidence for which you need faith. :)
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
No, you do not know what atheism is. Atheism is merely a lack of belief in a god. One does not need evidence for that. A lack of belief is not the same as believing that something does not exist.
Your definition of atheism is incorrect. It is a strawman of atheism.

Well that is not true. I already posted the Oxford Dictionaries definition that atheism is the disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. It seems you do not know what faith is. :)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Well that is not true. I already posted the Oxford Dictionaries definition that atheism is the disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. It seems you do not know what faith is. :)
We went over this once before. You just said it "or lack of belief" . There is nothing there that requires one to believe that God or gods do not exist.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Nope. Nobody believes in atheism, silly! It's not a belief.


Nope! The Oxford ditionary says that athiesm is a belief or lak of belief that there is a God or Gods

All we ask? Is for you to show WHY you believe there is a god.

We have to have faith to believe or not believe that there is a God or that there is no God either way you have to have faith as you have no evidence.

So far? You dodge these questions-- you fail to convince us.

I have not dodged anything. I am only throwing your same arguments back to you. You have to have faith there is no God because you cannot prove there is no God.

If God were Real? It would be Godly Convincing, right?

Yet here you are not able to prove God is not real. If you have no evidence that God is not real does it not worry you that maybe you are wrong?

Hmmm.... it appears God's #1 Attribute: Is to Hide from Rational Inquiry.

Indeed. You will never find God that way. The wisdom of men is foolishness with God as it is written the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but to us which are saved it is the power of God.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You can't demonstrate why it's "warped." At best all you can do is claim that my stating that Jesus said one thing but Paul said another isn't valid because, although the words used are different and say different things, they mean the same thing. I'm not the one inserting things to fill the gaps to make ends meet, like stretching "lord not of the dead but of the living" to mean "lord of the living and dead."
Its hard to comment when the ignorance is so deep....sorry. Whoever formulated your list is completely ignorant of what the scriptures teach overall. Its so easy to pluck a verse out of thin air and attribute meaning to it whilst ignoring everything else the writer said. You can believe whatever you wish.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Nonsense. To not believe in God is still a belief. It is a belief that one does not believe in God.
Let me try to clarify this. A rational person withholds belief until sufficient evidence for a claim is given. Withholding belief is not a statement that someone else is right or wrong.

You could look at a gumball machine and say "There are fiftysix gumballs in that machine. I would probably not believe that. Now that is not saying that there are not fifty-six gumballs in that machine, I am just saying that I am not convinced by a claim with no evidence.

As was pointed out already the standard without sufficient evidence is a state of non-belief.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Its hard to comment when the ignorance is so deep....sorry. Whoever formulated your list is completely ignorant of what the scriptures teach overall. Its so easy to pluck a verse out of thin air and attribute meaning to it whilst ignoring everything else the writer said. You can believe whatever you wish.
I didnt just get a list. Im very well versed in the Bible, and even 18 years after turning away from it I still remember the Bible rather well. It was even one of the questions I had for church leaders that went unanswered (this being before the days of social media and cell phones glued to hands).
The list, I googled a list and gave my favorites, and those with clear and specific language. Like their being a greatest commandment of loving god and with everything else being love thy neighbor, compared to it all being sumed up as love thy neighbor. Jesus was very clear and specific there is more too it than just that.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
His description sadly is correct for many theists. I won't say it aptly describes your faith since I do not know what you believe well enough, but there are some theists here that fit that description to a tee.

I was not referring to a theists view, in that reply back to the person who posted to me. ;)

Regards Tony
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
You could look at a gumball machine and say "There are fiftysix gumballs in that machine. I would probably not believe that. Now that is not saying that there are not fifty-six gumballs in that machine, I am just saying that I am not convinced by a claim with no evidence.
Not that I disagree with where you're going with it, however that's a poor example because some people (such as those who are really good at inventory auditing) are very good at eyeballing quantities, being good enough to only be couple off on a large stack of gift cards. The evidence of past performances.sounds be good enough to accept the number.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
If your morality comes from your Bible, you're way behind. Moral theory has advance over the centuries, much of it in contradiction to all of that submission stuff. Authoritarian models have been replaced by democracies. Slavery was condemned as barbaric and cruel. Women have rights such as voting and owning property. That's what's replacing biblical ethics.

I didn't know Christianity had anything to say about forms of government.
What it had to say was that you respect your government, and your neighbor.
Christianity does not approve of slavery, or making women into sex objects,
or sexualizing children, or adultery, or war etc..
At the turn of the last century people had great hope that with the end of
monarchies and religion the world would enter a new age - it sure did -
just 14 years later were the trenches of the first world war, and then the
rise of Communism and Fascism.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am one. They are called "atheists".

A fad, a sign of the very wayward times, in the future it will be seen an embarrassment, that did not last.

Wheras, Faith built upon One God will build a unity that will be strong, long lasting and prosperous for all humanity.

How was that, was that as good as you like to give? One has to play with an 'Atheist' from time to time, after all they are a dying breed.
:D

P/S I will reply no more, I have had my one second of fun, that will last a lifetime. :p

I do wish you all the best, regards Tony :)
 
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