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Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts

Muffled

Jesus in me
Christians do a lot of this, I notice. Proving something true by absence of information. He could mean yes, I am good-I am your son, of course (unblemished like other sacrifices) but I'm not "equal" to you. Another spin on it.

I believe the logic is reasonable.

The rich man called Jesus good.
Jesus stated that only God is good.
Therefore Jesus is God.

The only flaw in that reasoning is that the rich man may not have known what is good since only God is good and knows what that is.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
1. Jesus did not raise himself up by his own will, authority, or works. Therefore Jesus did not raise himself up by his own power; God our Father did.

1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2. It is not me denying those verses but knowing what is expedient and seeking the honour that comes from God our Father alone.

Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

3. Once again Jesus did not raise himself up by his own will, authority, or works; therefore Jesus did not raise himself up by his own power.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

4. It has always been about you denying that God our Father himself is the only true God and Lord God.

5. Once again Mat 7:21 & Joh 7:17

You still don't appear to understand what trinitarians are saying. Jesus Christ is our Lord, and it was the Spirit of God, or God, that raised him up from the dead.The Spirit of God, which was in Jesus Christ on the cross, left him because he bore the sin of the world. God raised up Jesus Christ from the dead, but this does not make Jesus Christ any less our Lord and Saviour!

Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, repeatedly states that he has come from God. What relationship do you think that he has with the Father from whom he has come? God is Spirit [John 4:24] and therefore what proceeds from God is Spirit. The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God, as it says in Romans 8:9, 'But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.'

If you believe that Jesus Christ was not our Saviour, why do you not ignore him all together! From what you are saying, it would appear that he had no role to play in God's plan of salvation.
 

Iymus

Active Member
You still don't appear to understand what trinitarians are saying. Jesus Christ is our Lord, and it was the Spirit of God, or God, that raised him up from the dead.The Spirit of God, which was in Jesus Christ on the cross, left him because he bore the sin of the world. God raised up Jesus Christ from the dead, but this does not make Jesus Christ any less our Lord and Saviour!

Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, repeatedly states that he has come from God. What relationship do you think that he has with the Father from whom he has come? God is Spirit [John 4:24] and therefore what proceeds from God is Spirit. The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God, as it says in Romans 8:9, 'But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.'

If you believe that Jesus Christ was not our Saviour, why do you not ignore him all together! From what you are saying, it would appear that he had no role to play in God's plan of salvation.

1. Seems that Trinitarians are saying that Jesus is Lord God; Denying the only Lord God who is the only true God; therefore denying our lord who is his only begotten son; because of certain men.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

2. many are called lord but one should know the Lord of Heaven and Earth is God and Father of our lord "his only begotten son"

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

3. All of Creation originated or came from God; Coming from God does not make you the only true God.

4. Never said Jesus is or is not a Saviour; Neither did I say he has no role to play.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I believe the logic is reasonable.

The rich man called Jesus good.
Jesus stated that only God is good.
Therefore Jesus is God.

The only flaw in that reasoning is that the rich man may not have known what is good since only God is good and knows what that is.

I'm misreading something.

Jesus stated that Only God is good (not him).

Why do you call, me, good? Only god is good (no one else: not me. not you. no one else but god).

He's pointing away from himself to emphasis he isn't god (since god is good) but only god is good. He is the medium between god and man-the son-but by that statement he is literally saying "why call me good? I'm not good, only god is good."

The "only" is the key that differentiates him from being god instead of the bible saying he the son and intermediary between god and man.

If jesus was god, he would say he is good not Only his father. He would probably say, "I am good as well as the father; I'm equal to god; I am god".

Can you rephrase that because I don't see how those two statements say he is god when he is pointing away from himself and other people to only focus on one god in heaven both the god of the jews and the god of pagan converts.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
You still don't appear to understand what trinitarians are saying. Jesus Christ is our Lord, and it was the Spirit of God, or God, that raised him up from the dead.The Spirit of God, which was in Jesus Christ on the cross, left him because he bore the sin of the world. God raised up Jesus Christ from the dead, but this does not make Jesus Christ any less our Lord and Saviour!

Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, repeatedly states that he has come from God. What relationship do you think that he has with the Father from whom he has come? God is Spirit [John 4:24] and therefore what proceeds from God is Spirit. The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God, as it says in Romans 8:9, 'But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.'

If you believe that Jesus Christ was not our Saviour, why do you not ignore him all together! From what you are saying, it would appear that he had no role to play in God's plan of salvation.

When men were given the Holy Spirit of God, which is called the Spirit of Christ, they were given it by measure. However, when the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus it was NOT by measure but was given FULLY unto him.

So, when it is said that "In him dwelleth all the FULLNESS of the deity bodily", it is meant that he was given the Holy Spirit of his God and Father FULLY and without measure.

If Jesus was given the FULLNESS of the deity to dwell in him then to see him would be to see his God and Father. If he has the same FULLNESS of the Spirit with proceeds from the Father then he is as the Father. He is as the Father in Word, Wisdom, Knowledge and Power.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Trinitarians worship a Triune God. For them, the One true God is a Triune God. If the One True God is a Triune God then the One true God cannot be the Father alone. Nor could it be the Son alone.

The One True God that Jesus worships is his God and Father alone.

We both agree that there is ONE God, and that God is Spirit. This is most clearly stated in Deuteronomy 6:4.

Where we differ is that you do not believe that God, the one God, can come to earth. To come to earth involves an appearance, a showing of the face of God. Solomon asked the question, 'But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? Your answer is clearly NO! As it says in John 1:18, 'No man hath seen God at any time;'

My answer to Solomon's question is an emphatic YES! God has come to dwell on earth, and he has done so in the person of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. But, this was not the first time that God has appeared on earth through his Son. In the OT, Jacob wrestled with God, as it says in Genesis 33:30, 'And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.' How could Jacob see God if no man hath seen God at any time? Well, John 1:2 also says, 'the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.' In other words, the Son makes known the Father.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
When men were given the Holy Spirit of God, which is called the Spirit of Christ, they were given it by measure. However, when the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus it was NOT by measure but was given FULLY unto him.

So, when it is said that "In him dwelleth all the FULLNESS of the deity bodily", it is meant that he was given the Holy Spirit of his God and Father FULLY and without measure.

If Jesus was given the FULLNESS of the deity to dwell in him then to see him would be to see his God and Father. If he has the same FULLNESS of the Spirit with proceeds from the Father then he is as the Father. He is as the Father in Word, Wisdom, Knowledge and Power.

Exactly. You said it.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
We both agree that there is ONE God, and that God is Spirit. This is most clearly stated in Deuteronomy 6:4.

Where we differ is that you do not believe that God, the one God, can come to earth. To come to earth involves an appearance, a showing of the face of God. Solomon asked the question, 'But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? Your answer is clearly NO! As it says in John 1:18, 'No man hath seen God at any time;'

My answer to Solomon's question is an emphatic YES! God has come to dwell on earth, and he has done so in the person of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. But, this was not the first time that God has appeared on earth through his Son. In the OT, Jacob wrestled with God, as it says in Genesis 33:30, 'And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.' How could Jacob see God if no man hath seen God at any time? Well, John 1:2 also says, 'the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.' In other words, the Son makes known the Father.

But I do believe the one God can come to earth. He came to earth when He descended upon Mount Sinai whereby He told Moses that "no man can see my face and live". He put Moses in the cleft of the rock so that Moses would be concealed from seeing the face of God.
But then you have Jacob declaring that he had seen the face of God and lived.
That's because Jacob wrestled with the angel of God and not God Himself. The angel merely represented God and therefore could be said to be God.
The same can be said of Jesus. They had seen the face of God in Jesus and lived. But they had not seen the face of the One True God because if they had they would not have lived.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
But I do believe the one God can come to earth. He came to earth when He descended upon Mount Sinai whereby He told Moses that "no man can see my face and live". He put Moses in the cleft of the rock so that Moses would be concealed from seeing the face of God.
But then you have Jacob declaring that he had seen the face of God and lived.
That's because Jacob wrestled with the angel of God and not God Himself. The angel merely represented God and therefore could be said to be God.
The same can be said of Jesus. They had seen the face of God in Jesus and lived. But they had not seen the face of the One True God because if they had they would not have lived.

There's a very interesting use of the name Wonderful in the OT. It appears most obviously in the well known passage from Isaiah, 9:6; 'For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.'
The name Wonderful is found in another passage of scripture that is not so well known. This is because the name is translated as 'secret'. Read Judges 13:18 [see whole section 15-23]. Manoah encounters the Angel of the LORD, who calls himself Wonderful, which is one of God's names.
Manoah believes [verse 22] 'We shall surely die, because we have seen God. But his wife said unto him, If the LORD were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering at our hands...'
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
It is also worth noting that scripture says, 'No MAN hath seen God at any time;' When a man looks with his eyes he sees only physical appearances. God is Spirit, and cannot be seen. Therefore, the only way to see God, if you are a man, is to look beyond the outward appearance. This might be the outward appearance of an angel [the angel of the LORD], or it might be the outward appearance of a man [Jesus Christ]. In either case, the process of recognizing God in the angel, or the man, is a spiritual recognition, and not a physical recognition.
 

Iymus

Active Member
I find it amazing at times. There are direct verses that deny Jesus of being the only true God.

Yet nonbelievers will find indirect verses; and use sorcery and strong divination to confess Jesus is Lord God and the only true God.

Joh 10:36 KJV Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Joh 20:17 KJV Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1Jn 5:5 KJV Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 3:12 KJV Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Joh 8:42 KJV Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 KJV Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

The God and Father of Jesus is God himself to the brethren and disciples of Jesus.

Eph 1:3 KJV Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:4 KJV According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 KJV Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I find it amazing at times. There are direct verses that deny Jesus of being the only true God.

Yet nonbelievers will find indirect verses; and use sorcery and strong divination to confess Jesus is Lord God and the only true God.

Joh 10:36 KJV Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Joh 20:17 KJV Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1Jn 5:5 KJV Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 3:12 KJV Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Joh 8:42 KJV Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 KJV Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

The God and Father of Jesus is God himself to the brethren and disciples of Jesus.

Eph 1:3 KJV Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:4 KJV According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 KJV Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

lymus, please explain to me what you understand by the term 'Son of God'.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
But I do believe the one God can come to earth. He came to earth when He descended upon Mount Sinai whereby He told Moses that "no man can see my face and live". He put Moses in the cleft of the rock so that Moses would be concealed from seeing the face of God.
But then you have Jacob declaring that he had seen the face of God and lived.
That's because Jacob wrestled with the angel of God and not God Himself. The angel merely represented God and therefore could be said to be God.
The same can be said of Jesus. They had seen the face of God in Jesus and lived. But they had not seen the face of the One True God because if they had they would not have lived.

The question I should have posed is, 'But will God in very deed dwell with men on earth?'
 

Iymus

Active Member
lymus, please explain to me what you understand by the term 'Son of God'.

1. Only begotten Son of God ; One of a Kind Son of God.

The Concept of a Son is pretty consistent. Why does one need to make the simple complicated?

Son is an offspring or creation
Of signifies possession or ownership
God is "Most High" our Originator "Father of Existence"

Joh 3:16 KJV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Heb 1:5 KJV For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

2Jn 1:3 KJV Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Joh 5:26 KJV For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Col 1:15 KJV Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Rev 3:14 KJV And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;


2. So Son of Lord God our Father

Mat 11:25 KJV At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

1Ti 1:2 KJV Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Heb 1:1 KJV God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 KJV Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
 
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LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
It is also worth noting that scripture says, 'No MAN hath seen God at any time;' When a man looks with his eyes he sees only physical appearances. God is Spirit, and cannot be seen. Therefore, the only way to see God, if you are a man, is to look beyond the outward appearance. This might be the outward appearance of an angel [the angel of the LORD], or it might be the outward appearance of a man [Jesus Christ]. In either case, the process of recognizing God in the angel, or the man, is a spiritual recognition, and not a physical recognition.
I disagree. I believe the Father has a physical body, When it is said that "no man has seen God at anytime" it refers to mortal man seeing the face of the Father, When the Father descended upon Mount Sinai, Moses was permitted to see His back but not His face even though Moses had asked to see His glory (face). Moses had come so close to actually seeing God's face that Moses own face shined to the extent that he had to put a veil over it.
However, angels and all those who are made immortal will see the face of God.

"Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven." Matt 18:10

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Matt 5:8

Even after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God. Job 19:26
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Son is an offspring or creation
Of signifies possession or ownership
God is "Most High" our Originator "Father of Existence"

We both agree that God is Spirit [John 4:24]. We also know from the scriptures that God is Creator. We know that the manner of creation is through His Word [John 1:1-5; Hebrews 11:3; 2 Peter 3:5] God's Word proceeds from the Father; it is therefore, OF God. But, because the Word proceeds from the Father, it also has an existence discrete from the Father [1 John 5:7] This Word, when fully recognized, is given a distinctive name, that name being KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS [Revelation 19:13-16]

The Son of God is also the Word of God [1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19] and the Son is therefore sent forth in the same manner as the Word. We also know that God's word is truth [John 17:17], and Jesus Christ claimed to be this truth [John 14:6].

What all of this adds up to is a very simple truth, namely, that you cannot claim to know God unless you know Jesus Christ.

'Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.' [John 14:8-10]

This makes it quite clear that God was in Jesus Christ. The Word of God, the Spirit of the Son, dwelt in Jesus Christ.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I disagree. I believe the Father has a physical body, When it is said that "no man has seen God at anytime" it refers to mortal man seeing the face of the Father, When the Father descended upon Mount Sinai, Moses was permitted to see His back but not His face even though Moses had asked to see His glory (face). Moses had come so close to actually seeing God's face that Moses own face shined to the extent that he had to put a veil over it.
However, angels and all those who are made immortal will see the face of God.

"Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven." Matt 18:10

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Matt 5:8

Even after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God. Job 19:26

If you believe that our Father in heaven has a physical body you encounter all kinds of philosophical and scriptural difficulties.

'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.' This indicates that there is nothing physical in existence before God creates. God is Spirit and does not have a physical form.

1 Kings 8:27. 'But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house [the temple of Solomon] that I have builded?'

Solomon appears to understand that God will dwell on earth, but he questions how this is possible given that God is the Creator, and beyond containment.
 
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Iymus

Active Member
We both agree that God is Spirit [John 4:24]. We also know from the scriptures that God is Creator. We know that the manner of creation is through His Word [John 1:1-5; Hebrews 11:3; 2 Peter 3:5] God's Word proceeds from the Father; it is therefore, OF God. But, because the Word proceeds from the Father, it also has an existence discrete from the Father [1 John 5:7] This Word, when fully recognized, is given a distinctive name, that name being KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS [Revelation 19:13-16]

The Son of God is also the Word of God [1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19] and the Son is therefore sent forth in the same manner as the Word. We also know that God's word is truth [John 17:17], and Jesus Christ claimed to be this truth [John 14:6].

What all of this adds up to is a very simple truth, namely, that you cannot claim to know God unless you know Jesus Christ.

'Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.' [John 14:8-10]

This makes it quite clear that God was in Jesus Christ. The Word of God, the Spirit of the Son, dwelt in Jesus Christ.

0. Your words seem like Romanticism to emotionally lead me down a path or make me feel that Jesus is the only true God our Lord God. There was a time I was socialized and intimate with that doctrine or philosophy.

1. All of Creation proceeds forth from God our Father "Originator".

2. It is not unreasonable for the attributes of God our Father to be in his only begotten Son.

3. I would not deny that prophets or messengers of God are the way and truth, etc towards God our Father. " Joh 14:6 "

4. The Works of God are in all that are subject unto his will and received his authority. "Joh 13:3 & Joh 7:17

5. God our Father is greater than all so there can only be One in agreement. "Joh 10:29 & Joh 10:37 & Joh 14:20, etc "

6. All things are of God not his only begotten Son.
 
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