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The Mormons are being sued for doing the right thing:

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
My understanding is that molester was unaware of official church policy.
His wife's claim is that the church should have told him that the policy is to report crimes like his. He had no such protection, but failed to become sufficiently familiar with current policy on the subject before admitting to the crime.

She is blaming the church.
Tom

Only if the panel were ethical.

It's very rarely the case that clergy are ethical enough to report the crimes they hear about in confession.

Please let's agree any Church should disclose its Church's Confidentiality policies and Clergy-Penitent bylaws in advance of taking a confessional statement from any of its parishioners.

Maybe I'm wrong here, ethics was my weakest subject in Business School.

 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Please let's agree any Church should disclose its Church's Confidentiality policies and Clergy-Penitent bylaws in advance of taking a confessional statement from any of its parishioners.
Maybe the denominations that protect child predators should have to display a warning like those Health Department inspection certificates in restaurants.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Do you think that there would be more such crimes, or less, if confessing to a religious leader was equivalent to telling the police?
Tom
Less, probably.

With child sexual abuse, it's often the confession of the victim that brings the abuse to the attention of the church: the child thinks that they've committed a sin by "participating" in their abuse.

They don't recognize it as a crime by the adult, so the idea that reports of crime in confessional will be reported wouldn't stop them from confessing.

OTOH, if a predator gets reported early on, there's the potential to stop them after only one or a few victims instead of after dozens, as has happened in some cases.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Please let's agree any Church should disclose its Church's Confidentiality policies and Clergy-Penitent bylaws in advance of taking a confessional statement from any of its parishioners.
I doubt that the LDS kept their policies secret.
Must every religious professional start every conversation with "Admissions of certain crimes can and will be used against you in a court of Law"?

Don't get me wrong, it's sticky thicket. Might the availability of moral leaders, who aren't part of the police department, result in less heinous crimes of this sort?

I'm not sure, myself.
But that is, to me, the bottom line. Prevention, not vengeance or punishment.
Prevention.
Tom
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Less, probably.

With child sexual abuse, it's often the confession of the victim that brings the abuse to the attention of the church: the child thinks that they've committed a sin by "participating" in their abuse.

They don't recognize it as a crime by the adult, so the idea that reports of crime in confessional will be reported wouldn't stop them from confessing.

OTOH, if a predator gets reported early on, there's the potential to stop them after only one or a few victims instead of after dozens, as has happened in some cases.
Your opinions are much more confident than mine.
Tom
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So if I were a Church parishioner who'd confessed to a Clergyman or panel of Clergymen that I'd committed a crime, then the Clergyman or panel of Clergymen could report me to the state who could then in turn prosecute me? If this were the case, then I'd bet there'd be far fewer confessions.
Yes, but when your confessed crime indicates that you may do the same thing again the moral response is to protect the victims out there.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Yes, but when your confessed crime indicates that you may do the same thing again the moral response is to protect the victims out there.
Does making priests, or whatever, an auxiliary of the police and judiciary seem likely to have that effect? Maybe people just stop talking to other people who want to prevent such crimes? Like religious authorities?

I don't claim to know.
Tom
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
You seemed pretty confident. I am not.
Well, it seems unlikely that any response strategy would work worse than the strategy of keeping abuse secret, given the horrible record that this strategy has had in the denominations that have used it.


I'm not at all sure what the best thing to do is.
Tom
When the choices are "be complicit with sexual abuse of children" and "do something about it," I simply can't understand your feelings on this.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Who is "we"?
Aren't the guy who molested his daughter and the woman who is suing for millions part of that "we"?
Tom
Yes, they are. But by "we," I was thinking of "those among us" who had the integrity to hold this man accountable for what he did.
 
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robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Mormons face $9.5 million lawsuit after reporting an abusive father

The wife of a man that sexually molested his daughter, and yes he has been found guilty and is in prison so no need of the term "allegedly". is suing the church for $9.5 million. She lists herself and four of their five children (the daughter that was molested is not listed) as plaintiffs. He went to a panel of elders of his church and confessed, hoping for forgiveness and absolution. It did not quite work out that way.
I'm LDS, and I'm sure glad I didn't have to confess something that I'd get turned in for! Utah is passing a law to protect such victims.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
When the choices are "be complicit with sexual abuse of children" and "do something about it,"
Those aren't often the choices. Sometimes, not very often.
I simply can't understand your feelings on this.
Possibly because you don't see the nuances here.

Suppose:
Chester(the Molester) goes to confession. He says "I'm banging a 14 y/o.".
Father Joe says "You know you have to stop. God already knows. And your family and her family will find out. It's just a matter of time. You can't keep this secret.
You just can't.

There's help available. I can connect you with it. You need it. She needs it. You must do this! Today!
Do what you and I both know is the right thing. Do it now."

Or,
Chester just walks past the church, because he knows Father Joe is a policeman.

Which scenario do you think more likely to prevent further mayhem?
Tom
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Yeah, they are. But by "we," I was thinking of "those among us" who had the integrity to hold this man accountable for what he did.
And paying, because he thought he had rights the Mormon church doesn't provide?

How about the other kids who's molester now knows better than to confess to a Mormon. How is the church going to help those kids?

How is a multi million dollar payout to the wife of someone who molested their kid, but doesn't know Mormon policies help?
Tom
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Does making priests, or whatever, an auxiliary of the police and judiciary seem likely to have that effect? Maybe people just stop talking to other people who want to prevent such crimes? Like religious authorities?

I don't claim to know.
Tom
I am not sure myself. I think some will know that they are doing wrong and will ask for forgiveness. Some won't no matter what. Perhaps the deal could be sweetened with a lesser sentence for those that asked for help. They are far less of a threat than those that have no.conscience.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
And paying, because he thought he had rights the Mormon church doesn't provide?
I'm thinking the guy must have been pretty darned clueless if he really thought there would be no repercussions for what he did. Any Mormon who understands his religion's basic theology knows, confession is part of what we often refer to as the "Repentance Process." Restitution is also a part of that process. This man did more than "sin" in the eyes of God. He committed a "crime" -- a felony -- and was crazy to think that simply admitting to that crime would let him off the hook where the law was concerned. The Church has a responsibility both to the offender and to the victim (as well as other potential victims). The Church can help him get right again with God, but it's not the Church's place to help him avoid punishment handed out by the legal system.

How about the other kids who's molester now knows better than to confess to a Mormon. How is the church going to help those kids?
I think 90% of those molesters already know. They're simply not going to confess. Obviously, if there is no confession, and nobody knows the crime is being committed, the Church can't possibly help. But it can help when the offender's conscience gets the best of him and he wants to repent.

How is a multi million dollar payout to the wife of someone who molested their kid, but doesn't know Mormon policies help?
Tom
Well, I guess it would pay the bills if it actually came down to it. I'd be pretty surprised to hear that she won the case, though. So are you just playing devil's advocate, or do you actually think the man's bishop, etc. were wrong to turn him in? If he'd gotten off with a "shame on you, you've got to stop that," would you have felt the Church acted appropriately?

On a side note: The person I feel most sorry for is the man's daughter. She was betrayed not just by one parent, but by both of them.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I am not sure myself. I think some will know that they are doing wrong and will ask for forgiveness. Some won't no matter what. Perhaps the deal could be sweetened with a lesser sentence for those that asked for help. They are far less of a threat than those that have no.conscience.
Good point! I agree.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'd say God's laws are not man's laws. God's laws let God decide how to punish you and you can repent. Man's laws let man decide and you can try to make restitution.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
.

As the old saying goes:

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.

.
The most litigious society in the history of the world.

Shakespeare had it right: "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers!" (Henry VI, Part 2)
 
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