• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Would God do what God has never done?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
yes, the mother of all rationalizations. God does not provide evidence because He wants us to believe without it.
God does not want us to believe without evidence. God does provide evidence, just not the kind of evidence you want. ;)
 

syo

Well-Known Member
For purposes of this thread, let’s act as if God could communicate a direct message to everyone in the world that would convince everyone in the world that God exists. This assumes communication from God that convinces them it is “really God” speaking.

We know that God has never done that because if God had done that everyone in the world would believe that God exists.

For purposes of this thread, let’s assume that God has never communicated a direct message to everyone in the world that would convince everyone in the world that God exists.

Some people believe that God could communicate a direct message to everyone in the world because God is omnipotent. The question I am posing to you is if you think that God would do that, even though God has never done that before?

I am not asking you if God could do that. I am asking you if God would do that.
The christian God appeared once as Jesus. That's all we've got.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
For purposes of this thread, let’s act as if God could communicate a direct message to everyone in the world that would convince everyone in the world that God exists. This assumes communication from God that convinces them it is “really God” speaking.

We know that God has never done that because if God had done that everyone in the world would believe that God exists.

For purposes of this thread, let’s assume that God has never communicated a direct message to everyone in the world that would convince everyone in the world that God exists.

Some people believe that God could communicate a direct message to everyone in the world because God is omnipotent. The question I am posing to you is if you think that God would do that, even though God has never done that before?

I am not asking you if God could do that. I am asking you if God would do that.

I believe not. My experience is that He won't waste His time on lost causes. In essence God has given sufficient word for a person to be saved and anyone can get a Bible and read it.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I don't understand it. God does not wish to be known one smidgeon. That's the evidence I see. An all powerful being would at least leave his/her trace for us to follow. God would set up messages of his expectations, or setup his/her justice.

I expect God to deliver a game plan for us humans. God existing that would make her the landlord.

It would be counter productive to let life go on its own just to see what we would do. Then when we least expect it God swoops in when we are not looking and lays down the law.

God existing means God is hiding out from us all. That says to me something about God. It says God could care less about life on Earth.

I believe you are wrong. He does wish to be known and has spoken about Himself and has shown He cares by dying on the cross for people.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Meh. I'm not convinced that even staring in the face of overwhelming evidence that god existed, everyone would believe it. There's overwhelming evidence the earth is round, yet flat earthers are a thing. People are quick to cling to their own biases as fact, and they are great at molding their perceptions of reality to conform with what they already accept as plausible. That's the power of delusion, and all are susceptible to delusion to some degree.

That said, that form of communication from god would certainly be enough evidence to convince me -for the time being. In the future, this may be able to be replicated via technological advancements.

As for if god would do that, I can't pretend to see into the mind of a being that I haven't seen enough proof to believe that he exists in the firstplace. What's more, even though I'm sure I can get a good idea of what someone's motives may be if I know them well, I can't pretend to know what they would and would not do exactly -though I can make an educated guess.

For me, I guess the questions would be "Which god," and "Why does this god care if I believe in his/her/it's existence?" What does this god have to gain by this? Why would he prefer people clinging to blind faith rather than relying on hard evidence? Doesn't make much sense to me.

If god exists, he has a very hands off opproach to his interaction with the world. What use have I for a god that doesn't really do much?

I believe it is a very hands on approach for Him to provide the Holy Spirit.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The christian God appeared once as Jesus. That's all we've got.
I do not believe that there is a Christian God. I believe there is one true God who was revealed by all the Messengers of God who were the Founders of all the great religions. These Messengers were Manifestations of God thus they were in effect the appearance of God on Earth, and that means God has appeared at various times throughout the history of the human race, not just once in Jesus.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe not. My experience is that He won't waste His time on lost causes. In essence God has given sufficient word for a person to be saved and anyone can get a Bible and read it.
God has given sufficient word for people to know He exists, not only in the Bible but in the Qur’an and the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

If the Bible had been sufficient, there would not be so many atheists.

According to my Baha’i beliefs, there is no such thing as “saved” because there is nothing to be saved from, except our lower material selves.

Nobody is a lost cause, there is always hope.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Yep, but they are not ordinary men, they are Manifestations of God.

let me see. The evidence of God is the middle man, and this is because he is not an ordinary man, but because he is a manifestation of God? :)

Cool. Albeit a bit circular, don’t you think?

Can you provide some not question begging evidence?

ciao

- viole
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
let me see. The evidence of God is the middle man, and this is because he is not an ordinary man, but because he is a manifestation of God? :)

Cool. Albeit a bit circular, don’t you think?

Can you provide some not question begging evidence?
Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning - Wikipedia

The evidence that God provides for His existence is Manifestations of God. That is not circular because I am not beginning with what I am trying to end with since the Manifestations of God are not God.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God is not that He claimed to be a Manifestation of God because that would be circular reasoning. The evidence is everything that indicates that He was a Manifestation of God.

There is no proof that He was a Manifestation of God, only evidence that indicates that. Nobody can ever prove that Baha’u’llah got communication from God; He and God are the only Ones who can know that for certain.

I have had two requests for evidence that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God so I will be posting a new thread this coming weekend.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
For purposes of this thread, let’s act as if God could communicate a direct message to everyone in the world that would convince everyone in the world that God exists. This assumes communication from God that convinces them it is “really God” speaking.

We know that God has never done that because if God had done that everyone in the world would believe that God exists.

For purposes of this thread, let’s assume that God has never communicated a direct message to everyone in the world that would convince everyone in the world that God exists.

Some people believe that God could communicate a direct message to everyone in the world because God is omnipotent. The question I am posing to you is if you think that God would do that, even though God has never done that before?

I am not asking you if God could do that. I am asking you if God would do that.
I can't imagine any scenario where it would be reasonable to expect a god to communicate with humanity in any way whatsoever, whether directly as you describe or indirectly through messengers. The idea that a god might have any sort of message for humanity seems ludicrous to me.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I can't imagine any scenario where it would be reasonable to expect a god to communicate with humanity in any way whatsoever, whether directly as you describe or indirectly through messengers. The idea that a god might have any sort of message for humanity seems ludicrous to me.
I see it the opposite way. The idea that God would not have any communication with humans would mean He did not care about them. Why would God create creatures He did not care about? Why would God leave us completely alone to fend for ourselves? That would not be a Loving God.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I see it the opposite way. The idea that God would not have any communication with humans would mean He did not care about them.
The idea that a god would care about humanity also seems ludicrous to me.

Why would God create creatures He did not care about?
I have no idea. I also see the idea of a creator-god as ludicrous, especially if the god is supposed to be perfect.

Why would a supposedly perfect God do anything? How would creating things - or anything else he might do - make things better or solve any problem if he was already as good as he could be without creating, and had no problems to solve?

Why would God leave us completely alone to fend for ourselves? That would not be a Loving God.
Why would we expect God to feel love at all?

Humans feel love because we're social creatures. Sociability has been ingrained in us through billions of years of evolution.

God, OTOH, has none of these pressures or conditioning to be social. Whether you think he always existed or magically poofed into being, we're talking about a solitary creature: a hyper-intelligent, hyper-powerful creature that's alien not only to our planet, but to our entire universe, initally more totally alone than any being that has ever existed. It's absolutely bizarre to me that anyone would expect such a creature to express sociability in ways that a human would.

We're talking about something that would have much less in common than, say, an octopus. We would expect its thought processes to be many times more inscrutable to us than those of an octopus.

When you talk about God having human attributes like feeling love, I think you're getting very close to "big man with a long white beard sitting on a cloud" levels on anthromorphism of God.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning - Wikipedia

The evidence that God provides for His existence is Manifestations of God. That is not circular because I am not beginning with what I am trying to end with since the Manifestations of God are not God.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God is not that He claimed to be a Manifestation of God because that would be circular reasoning. The evidence is everything that indicates that He was a Manifestation of God.

There is no proof that He was a Manifestation of God, only evidence that indicates that. Nobody can ever prove that Baha’u’llah got communication from God; He and God are the only Ones who can know that for certain.

I have had two requests for evidence that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God so I will be posting a new thread this coming weekend.

And what is this evidence that she was a manifestation of God?

Ciao

- viole
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why would a supposedly perfect God do anything? How would creating things - or anything else he might do - make things better or solve any problem if he was already as good as he could be without creating, and had no problems to solve?
God is not the one with problems to solve, humans are the ones who have problems to solve. God sends Messengers who reveal what we need to solve our problems.
Why would we expect God to feel love at all?

Humans feel love because we're social creatures. Sociability has been ingrained in us through billions of years of evolution.
Humans were created in the image and likeness of God. God is love and that is why humans love.
God, OTOH, has none of these pressures or conditioning to be social. Whether you think he always existed or magically poofed into being, we're talking about a solitary creature: a hyper-intelligent, hyper-powerful creature that's alien not only to our planet, but to our entire universe, initially more totally alone than any being that has ever existed. It's absolutely bizarre to me that anyone would expect such a creature to express sociability in ways that a human would.
You are absolutely correct. God is not a social being. As I told @ Left Coast yesterday, according to my beliefs God is unapproachable and unreachable so we cannot ‘socialize’ with God because we are not on God’s level. God is one and alone, detached from all things, self-subsisting. God has no associates or partners, as some Christians believe.
We're talking about something that would have much less in common than, say, an octopus. We would expect its thought processes to be many times more inscrutable to us than those of an octopus.
You are absolutely correct. God is inscrutable to all except Himself.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
God is not the one with problems to solve, humans are the ones who have problems to solve. God sends Messengers who reveal what we need to solve our problems.

Humans were created in the image and likeness of God. God is love and that is why humans love.

You are absolutely correct. God is not a social being. As I told @ Left Coast yesterday, according to my beliefs God is unapproachable and unreachable so we cannot ‘socialize’ with God because we are not on God’s level. God is one and alone, detached from all things, self-subsisting. God has no associates or partners, as some Christians believe.

You are absolutely correct. God is inscrutable to all except Himself.
Thank you for reminding me why I stopped responding to you.

You didn't read my post. When you're ready for a real conversation, let me know.

I'm not interested in playing along with your game where you reply with some stock response that you parrot based on a keyword in my post even if it's irrelevant to what I said.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why He?

ciao

- viole
I do not know. To date Messengers of God have always been men, but in the future there might be a woman Messenger. I heard from a Baha’i that there is something in the Baha’i Writings that indicates the next Messenger might be a woman.

I am guessing they have always been men simply because humanity was not yet ready for a woman Messenger, but times are changing.
 
Top