stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I did not state this. You misread my words.
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Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts
- Thread starter Iymus
- Start date
InChrist
Free4ever
Jesus was asking a rhetorical question in Mark 19:17. A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question which is asked to make a point rather than elicit an answer. The point Jesus was making is that He is God because He is good. The fact that Jesus is good and the perfect, sinless One who alone was able to pay for the sins of the world is verified throughout the NT.
As stated in 1 Peter 2:22, in reference to Jesus Christ... He who committed no sin and no deceit was found in His mouth.
Iymus
Active Member
I looked up the definition of a rhetorical question. If Jesus was asking a rhetorical question then he would not have followed up with a statement.
rhetorical question - Dictionary Definition
a statement that is formulated as a question but that is not supposed to be answered.
When something is rhetorical that means it is made for style or effect, likewise a rhetorical question is a question that is asked for mere effect, rather than a question that needs to be answered. Questions like “Who knew?” or “Who's better than me?” are often rhetorical.
According to the definition of a rhetorical question, the following are not rhetorical questions. I see a question followed up with a statement or clarity: not a question standalone
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
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InChrist
Free4ever
Jesus did not follow up with a statement concerning His question about His own goodness because the obvious answer was that He was GOOD and He spent His time going about doing good, healing people and instructing people in truth. The only statement He made was to declare that only God is good. Since Jesus is clearly good and only God is good, Jesus is therefore God.
Iymus
Active Member
Wait a minute!!! Didn't you lie "whether intentionally or unintentionally" that Jesus asked a rhetorical question?
Why can't you be honest that Jesus is obviously God because of your feelings and how you learned or was taught;
The one whose will and works he did is Good. see references below instead of my obvious feelings.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Skwim
Veteran Member
What you call equations here, are better known in logic as syllogisms. A syllogism is a kind of logical argument that applies deductive reasoning to arrive at a conclusion based on two or more propositions that are asserted or assumed to be true. There are 19 valid forms, which combined with true premises produce a sound argument. Your first "equation" is one such sound argument :
God = Good
Jesus = Not Good
Jesus = Not God
Jesus = Not Good
Jesus = Not God
In traditional form his would be stated as
God is Good
No Jesus is Good
_______________
No Jesus is God
No Jesus is Good
_______________
No Jesus is God
For reasons not pertinent to this post, this particular form of syllogism is named Camestres, which in logic is stated as
All M are P
No S are P
_____________
No S are M
No S are P
_____________
No S are M
Unfortunately, your second "equation"
God = Good
Father = Good
Father = God
Father = Good
Father = God
All M are P
All S are P
__________
All S are M
All S are P
__________
All S are M
is invalid. To see why, simply substitute different terms
All Butter is Yellow............... ("is" and "are" are interchangeable depending on the number in the statement)
All School buses are Yellow
______________________
All School buses are Butter
.
All School buses are Yellow
______________________
All School buses are Butter
.
.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Nothing you posted so far, including any of the scriptures you posted, address anything in the post you are reaponding to. It is your OP not mine. Did you want to have another go? Your OP's title is "Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts" Now so what?
Are you saying we ignore the Gospel of JOHN which is the only gospel that was witten by one of the APOSTLES that eye witnessed everything that JESUS said and did and the rest of the bible that shows the divinity of JESUS?
Your claims to the three gospels seems to be an argument of silence - because nothing is mentioned in them on Christs devinity, then it must not be true despite the gospel of JOHN being the only eyewitness account of the four gospels and the rest of the bible disagreeing with you. You can ignore my post if you want to it is up to you but please don't try and pretend that you addressed it when you clearly haven't
I can quote bible verses to and they do not teach what you do. Here you go....
John 14:7-10 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
John 8:58 I am telling you the truth,” Jesus replied. “Before Abraham was born, ‘I AM’ (see Exodus 3:14)
John 12:45 He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
John 10:37-38 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.
John 16:15 All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
John 1:1-4; 14 [1], In the beginning was the Word, and THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. [2], The same was in the beginning with God. [3], ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM; AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE . [4], In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[14], AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH AND DWELLED AMONG US AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY THE GLORY AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH
John 20:28-29 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and MY GOD!” Jesus said to him, “Do you believe because you see me? How happy are those who believe without seeing me
Luke 22:69 But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD.
Luke 22:70 And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am."
Colossians 2:9 For in Him (Chrsit) all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form
Philippians 2:6-11 [6], Who (Christ), being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [7], But made himself of no reputation, and took on him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: [8], And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross. [9], Why God also has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10], That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [11], And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Hebrews 1:8 About the Son, however, God said: “YOUR KINGDOM O GOD, will last forever and ever! You rule over your people with justice.
Titus 2:12-13 That grace instructs us to give up ungodly living and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in this world, as we wait for the blessed Day we hope for, when the glory of OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST will appear.
2 Peter 1:1 . . . our God and Savior Jesus Christ
..........
God's Word says we must live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, not some of it *MATTHEW 4:4.
Hope this helps.
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LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
This is a very interesting statement made by Jesus.
The word I want to look at is the word translated as "was" (G1096).
HELPS Word-studies
1096 gínomai – properly, to emerge, become, transitioning from one point (realm, condition) to another. 1096 (gínomai) fundamentally means "become" (becoming, became) so it is not an exact equivalent to the ordinary equative verb "to be" (is, was, will be) as with 1510 /eimí (1511 /eínai, 2258 /ēn).
1096 (ginomai) means "to become, and signifies a change of condition, state or place" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 109).
M. Vincent, "1096 (gínomai) means to come into being/manifestation implying motion, movement, or growth" (at 2 Pet 1:4). Thus it is used for God's actions as emerging from eternity and becoming (showing themselves) in time (physical space).
What I believe Jesus is saying is that "Before Abraham is to become or emerge, I am"
Jesus is not speaking of Abraham's first birth, but his being born from the dead by resurrection from the dead.The Pharisees, as they often did, misunderstood Jesus. And Jesus, as he often did, would confound them.
There are two ways to understand what Jesus was saying by the word gínomai . He could be speaking of Abraham's original birth, or of his birth to come.
It may be understood as the Pharisees understood it, or as I do.
This is a very interesting statement made by Jesus.
The word I want to look at is the word translated as "was" (G1096).
HELPS Word-studies
1096 gínomai – properly, to emerge, become, transitioning from one point (realm, condition) to another. 1096 (gínomai) fundamentally means "become" (becoming, became) so it is not an exact equivalent to the ordinary equative verb "to be" (is, was, will be) as with 1510 /eimí (1511 /eínai, 2258 /ēn).
1096 (ginomai) means "to become, and signifies a change of condition, state or place" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 109).
M. Vincent, "1096 (gínomai) means to come into being/manifestation implying motion, movement, or growth" (at 2 Pet 1:4). Thus it is used for God's actions as emerging from eternity and becoming (showing themselves) in time (physical space).
What I believe Jesus is saying is that "Before Abraham is to become or emerge, I am"
Jesus is not speaking of Abraham's first birth, but his being born from the dead by resurrection from the dead.The Pharisees, as they often did, misunderstood Jesus. And Jesus, as he often did, would confound them.
There are two ways to understand what Jesus was saying by the word gínomai . He could be speaking of Abraham's original birth, or of his birth to come.
It may be understood as the Pharisees understood it, or as I do.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
None of these are "proof" and these simple errors in Bible understanding stand corrected for you on countless sites, do some research.
Iymus
Active Member
When it comes to Math, or Languages, or the bible, there is an order of operations or what is expedient or a foundation.
The Divinity of The Father was already revealed to the Hebrews.
The Father raised up Jesus by his own power because Jesus was subservient to the will of The Father.
1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
The Divinity of The Father was already revealed to the Hebrews.
The Father raised up Jesus by his own power because Jesus was subservient to the will of The Father.
1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
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That's not a fact. It's a claim.
And scripture is verification of nothing other than that it was written down. If there is a fact in the Bible, we know it as fact by consulting something other source than the Bible to determine as much.
Sure, he committed no sin of you allow his transgressions to slide and call him sinless anyway. Jesus is reported to have cursed a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season.
He also is reported to have said, "if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done." Not true.
Jesus allegedly said that it is more important to anoint him with a very expensive precious ointment than to sell it and give the proceeds to the poor.
Jesus also allegedly said that anyone who believes in him can play with venomous snakes or drink poison without harm.
None of this is exemplary.
Yeah, I know - you have a just-so answer ready to try to sanitize all of this in an effort to try to argue that the words don't mean what they say, but you could do that with any comment from any speaker. Cursing a fig tree is just a loss of self-control. Yes, Jesus said that you could cast a mountain into the sea with words alone. Yes, Jesus put himself above the poor, and said that it was safe to play with deadly snakes.
Jesus may have been good, but so are millions of other people who are basically gentle and well-meaning, including many friends and acquaintances of mine. I don't see where Jesus was better than any of them. Some of them also heal people and teach truths. All do good. Are they also all gods as well? According to your argument
Iymus
Active Member
If I take after my earthly father then the attributes of my earthly father is in me. Those of understanding or who can see the big picture knows where the source of my attributes originate and give the credit to where credit is due first and foremost.
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
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If I am a liar and the Originator of Lies is the Devil, then I take after the Originator or Father of Lies which is the devil. I am doing his works and not my own because I am not the originator of lies. By doing his works I would be considered one or joined unto him: According to the bible or volume of the book perspective .
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
-----------------------------
If I am a liar and the Originator of Lies is the Devil, then I take after the Originator or Father of Lies which is the devil. I am doing his works and not my own because I am not the originator of lies. By doing his works I would be considered one or joined unto him: According to the bible or volume of the book perspective .
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Iymus
Active Member
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
There can be no greater honour and glory than saying oneself is God. Seems someone else came in there own name saying they are God in which you received?
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Skwim
Veteran Member
Just so you're aware, preaching on Religious Forums is against the rules (#8), and can have consequences if done repeatedly.
.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
And I suspect that all those who disagree with you ALSO claim to have a 'strong foundation'. So much so that they can quote just as many scriptures as you can to support their position. CLEARLY if the bible is God's Word, then God has done a VERY poor job of communicating what 'the foundations' are. If god WAS a good communicator then virtually everyone would agree of what those foundations are.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
Then please DO clarify what this is supposed to mean:
It needs 2 for the Communication. Maybe the "God part" is good, but the problem is the other part.
I do think all Christians will agree with this
(that we can't blame God for bad communication)If god isn't the problem, but rather 'the other part'... I have to assume that the 'other part' are the human beings receiving the message. It sure SOUNDS like you're blaming the students for not being able to comprehend the teachers lesson.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
'Exalt ye the LORD our God, and worship at his footstool: for he is holy.' [Psalm 99]
Tell me, lymus, do you think that Jesus Christ is worthy of worship?
Iymus
Active Member
Unfortunately this occurs:
Jer 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
-----------------------------------------
Shouldn't the Love or Appreciation of God which consists of his commandments be The Foundation?
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
The Commandments of God is not Grievous which consist of him being one. Do you think the singular pronoun his or the singular digit / number one is a miscommunication.
1 is 100% or 1-in-1 "1/1=1"
Is One God and Father above all so hard to understand?
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Is it hard to understand That the Father is the Originator of Life?
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
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Consolidated list of questions asked above:
Shouldn't the Love or Appreciation of God which consists of his commandments be The Foundation?
The Commandments of God is not Grievous which consist of him being One. Do you think the singular pronoun his or the singular digit / number one is a miscommunication?
Is One God and Father above all so hard to understand?
Is it hard to understand That the Father is the Originator and Source of Life?
Iymus
Active Member
Him worshiped as God = No. Him worshiped as only begotten Son of God = Yes.
Our Lord is worthy of being worshiped as the Son of God; not as God.
Lord God alone is worthy of being worshiped as God.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately this occurs:
Yes, and any God that chooses a method of communication where THIS can occur is a VERY poor communicator. Communicating a vital message by handing it down over centuries using oral stories that were eventually written down by fallible human beings in languages that are now long dead is a sure way to guarantee that the message will become virtually incomprehensible and can be interpreted in almost any way anyone might want. In fact, it's the method I would use if I wanted to create mass confusion, instead of understanding.