What will the Second Coming of Christ look like?

[CG Didymus]

I am expecting that before Jesus comes, disciples of Jesus are persecuted and there will be difficult times. I have no need to make own additions for what the Bible tells.

Probably a smart thing to do. Too many people have made predictions and interpretations about Revelation that haven't come true.

Bible tells Jesus rose bodily.

For me that is clearly what the NT says, yes "says", because the verses were written by people and people do say things in writing. So I think you are correct in believing that what it says is what is meant... that Mary and the others went to the tomb and it was empty.

Now all us unbelievers can say we don't believe it... that it didn't happen... that Christians made it up. But, I do believe that the gospel writers made it very clear, Jesus came back to life and was seen by several eyewitnesses. So now what? If they are right, Jesus came back to life, then, if we believe that, it is a living Jesus that is coming back. No need for another "Christ". So either Jesus is alive or dead. Baha'is say he is dead. In their Second Coming it is the Spirit of Christ that returns... and has already returned more than 100 years ago.

To make that happen, they have to make all the verses in the gospel that say Jesus came back to life... symbolic. Mary didn't really see Jesus or talk with him. Thomas didn't touch him. None of that really happened in the real world. Somehow and for some reason the gospel writers all went from telling the story of the crucifixion to telling a metaphorical story about Jesus appearing. I don't believe that is what the gospel writers did. Whether it really happened or they made it up, I believe they wrote it as if Jesus really did rise again and appeared to the disciples. So to me, it's either totally true or totally false, but not "symbolic". It's good to have you here commenting. Most Christians don't bother. They just blow off Baha'is as a false religion that isn't worth their time responding to.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Has any Christian come forward to refute William Miller's calculations? But, I have a question for you, California and Australia are burning up. Is this the tribulations? Are things going to all fall apart? Problem is... it still fits the Christian prophecies. They can say that all these bad things happen before the Second Coming. Baha'is have to show how bad things happened before Baha'u'llah, and now, since he was rejected, more bad things are going to happen.

I see there is no stronger prophecy than the 1844/1260. To refute that, would be to refute any valid prophecy one has for their own Messengers.

Short answer is yes to increasing tribulation, it is tied into our spiritual health. We are connected to nature.

I have mentioned before that the Baha'i writings confirm that Bible Prophecy is not a chronological unfolding step by step in time. There are many that are timeless and will happen with each Messenger. Prophecies given by Baha'u'llah support prophecy in the Bible, yet to unfold in the physical world.

Justice says to me that God is merciful and sends the Messenger before we bring upon ourselves great destruction. So the question is, why do we still neglect the remedy? Why do we wait until the poo hits the fan before we unite in effort to help all people in distress? Why can we not help all people before any poo hits the fan?

Why do we destroy nature on a mass scale, which in turn we can now choose to see, adds to more destruction?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I think it would be better, if people would not make own interpretations, but instead let the Bible explain what is means. The reason for all the divisions is that people take only small part of the whole and then make own interpretations. It is really sad that "Christian" are not loyal to Jesus and God.

I guess you do not understand what I said.
The Bible does not explain anything. It just sits on a shelf till you open it, read it, and interpret the words that are written on the pages.

Everyone makes their own interpretations because everyone attributes different meanings to the words they read, since the minds of all humans work differently, based upon their knowledge base and their past and present experiences.

Even Baha'is do not all agree on the exact meanings of our scriptures. I read something Baha'u'llah wrote and it seems very clear to me what He meant, but other Baha'is will think it means something else. Some of this is based upon personal bias and what people want to be true. For example, Baha'u'llah writes about "things of the flesh" and in the context in which it is written, which I will not quote here, I think He is referring to sexual desire. Other Baha'is disagree it is referring to that, and I think they disagree because they do not want to see it, since it might mean they have to behave differently... Of course, I also have a bias, so how can we know what scriptures really mean? We can have an opinion, but how can we know we are right?

That made me think of some of my favorite verses in the NT. As an exercise, explain what you think these mean and why you think they mean that, and then I will explain what I think they mean and why I think so.

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

 

[1213]

...Everyone makes their own interpretations because everyone attributes different meanings to the words they read,...

I think that is funny idea. So, perhaps I just give own meanings to your words, you are actually saying: “everyone gives the same meanings…” and that is because I arbitrarily decided that your “different” actually means “same”. We can end this whole debate, because I can give own meanings to what you say and then I win all the debates.

... That made me think of some of my favorite verses in the NT. As an exercise, explain what you think these mean and why you think they mean that, and then I will explain what I think they mean and why I think so.

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

I think it is good idea to go this through an example. Jesus is saying Peter is offence to him. Peter is trying to lead Jesus away from correct path, which Jesus thinks is not ok.

 

[CG Didymus]

Justice says to me that God is merciful and sends the Messenger before we bring upon ourselves great destruction. So the question is, why do we still neglect the remedy? Why do we wait until the poo hits the fan before we unite in effort to help all people in distress? Why can we not help all people before any poo hits the fan?

Why do we destroy nature on a mass scale, which in turn we can now choose to see, adds to more destruction?

Well the environment can be something that forces all people to have to come together. In the U.S. things could change real fast. People on the left and people on the right aren't giving an inch. How the U.S. deals with the Middle East can easily lead to a major war. We could be close to something big happening very soon. If the Baha'is can fix it, go ahead. We can debate our differences later.

 

[Vinayaka]

Well the environment can be something that forces all people to have to come together. In the U.S. things could change real fast. People on the left and people on the right aren't giving an inch. How the U.S. deals with the Middle East can easily lead to a major war. We could be close to something big happening very soon. If the Baha'is can fix it, go ahead. We can debate our differences later.

The rise in veganism, if it continues, will have a significant impact. Not significant enough, but a start.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well the environment can be something that forces all people to have to come together. In the U.S. things could change real fast. People on the left and people on the right aren't giving an inch. How the U.S. deals with the Middle East can easily lead to a major war. We could be close to something big happening very soon. If the Baha'is can fix it, go ahead. We can debate our differences later.

Sorry to say, the only fix will not be considered until after the events CG. The sickness is still not accepted and the remedy is still neglected.

The chance to implement what needs to be done has always been our choice.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The rise in veganism, if it continues, will have a significant impact. Not significant enough, but a start.

I see a future where meat will not be eaten.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I see a future where meat will not be eaten.

Regards Tony

I always find this so interesting, Tony. Tiruvalluvar, amongst others, recommended it over 2000 years ago, and it has a long long history in my faith. And yet, rather than changing right now as individuals, or having leaders recommend it, the old 'some time in the future' card is used. Same for the 'in the future the reason will be clear' with regard to women on the UHJ.

I can't imagine asking a woman to marry me, and her answer is 'Some time in the future." Why not just do it now, and make the future happen right in front of your eyes? Saying 'some time in the future' is just procrastination, IMO.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I always find this so interesting, Tony. Tiruvalluvar, amongst others, recommended it over 2000 years ago, and it has a long long history in my faith. And yet, rather than changing right now as individuals, or having leaders recommend it, the old 'some time in the future' card is used. Same for the 'in the future the reason will be clear' with regard to women on the UHJ.

I can't imagine asking a woman to marry me, and her answer is 'Some time in the future." Why not just do it now, and make the future happen right in front of your eyes? Saying 'some time in the future' is just procrastination, IMO.

Such is life, no one is compelled to consider and practice any Faith and its laws, or advice as to diet.

The world has not the maturity to drop evrything and change. Consider that most of the objections against Baha'u'llah is because change is required.

Thus the wisdom of implementing foundation principles and upon those foundations, build a wider maturity. First we must find unity, before we can consider the sundries.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Such is life, no one is compelled to consider and practice any Faith and its laws, or advice as to diet.

The world has not the maturity to drop evrything and change. Consider that most of the objections against Baha'u'llah is because change is required.

Thus the wisdom of implementing foundation principles and upon those foundations, build a wider maturity. First we must find unity, before we can consider the sundries.

Regards Tony

So there is no point in changing oneself? Nobody is saying the entire world has to change overnight, but one can easily change themselves if they so choose to. I believe in the molecular theory of social change. When a pot of water boils, each individual molecule starts 'dancing' or moving faster. Eventually all the molecules start bouncing and the water boils. But hey, if people don't choose to be part of social change, that's up to them. It's going to happen regardless.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So there is no point in changing oneself? Nobody is saying the entire world has to change overnight, but one can easily change themselves if they so choose to. I believe in the molecular theory of social change. When a pot of water boils, each individual molecule starts 'dancing' or moving faster. Eventually all the molecules start bouncing and the water boils. But hey, if people don't choose to be part of social change, that's up to them. It's going to happen regardless.

The need is for all of to consider the change within.

Let's start on Unity, that we are one human family and then see what that compels the mind of men to further implement.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

The need is for all of to consider the change within.

Let's start on Unity, that we are one human family and then see what that compels the mind of men to further implement.

Regards Tony

Like I said, one can change themselves. I'm working on that. Excessive worrying about what others are doing isn't going to help them change one iota. You and I have Unity under control. Let's move on to something else, like the environment, or uplifting others.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think that is funny idea. So, perhaps I just give own meanings to your words, you are actually saying: “everyone gives the same meanings…” and that is because I arbitrarily decided that your “different” actually means “same”. We can end this whole debate, because I can give own meanings to what you say and then I win all the debates.

I don't think you understand what I have been trying to say, but that's okay. You won't be the first one.
Suffice to say, the meaning of the Word of God can never be exhausted, so there is more than one correct way to interpret the same verse(s). Many different meanings we attribute to those verses can be correct, but many meanings can also be incorrect. Obviously, this can present certain problems, and it has.

I think it is good idea to go this through an example. Jesus is saying Peter is offence to him. Peter is trying to lead Jesus away from correct path, which Jesus thinks is not ok.

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

The way I interpret these verses is that Jesus is talking to Satan, which I believe is not an entity, but rather symbolizes Jesus' worldly self that savors things that are not of God. Then Jesus tells His disciples that anyone who is going to follow Him should deny their selfish desires and follow Him doing His work, because it would not profit any man to live for their worldly desires in exchange for eternal life of the soul.

 

[Muffled]

Thanks for sharing that.

We Baha’is believe that the new Jerusalem is a new Revelation from God and that the new name refers to Baha’u’llah- the Glory of God translated into English.

Just one question. To you which sect is true Christianity because there are about 40,000 sects so which one do you believe is the true one?

I don't believe any Christian group has the whole truth. In addition to that I am an Iconoclast so my views often run contrary to contemporary Christian thinking.

 

[Muffled]

It’s interesting that in His Book of Certitude which it is said ‘broke the seals’ of the Book, Baha’u’llah interprets word for word most of that very passage. That is why I am absolutely convinced that He has returned.

Baha’u’llah said that such language was deliberately used to test and distinguish the sincere from the insincere. Christians were told to ‘ watch and pray’ not sit and expect to automatically see Him. Watching and praying means an effort must be made to see Him not that one will be automatically saved. Otherwise the thief will come and go and there will be those that get left behind and miss His coming completely.

The Baha’i Faith began in 1844. William Spicer, a Christian scholar recognised this date as the fulfillment of Daniels prophecy regarding the cleansing of the sanctuary in his book Our Day in the Light of Prophecy.


“From 457 b.c., when the commandment of Artaxerxes to restore Jerusalem went forth, the measuring line of the 2300 years reaches to the year A.D. 1844. In that year the time of the prophecy came. Then the cleansing of the sanctuary was to begin.”


Our Day / In the Light of Prophecy
William Ambrose Spicer

I don't believe any of that is rational. Of course you can believe in the bogeyman if you want but it is still irrational.

 

[Muffled]

Do you know that no Baha'i had to predict any date, some Christians had already settled upon a year which history has shown, did have foundations in Truth.

Thus the event was what everyone awaits for, or it is not. It is True, or it is False. It is from God, or not from God.

I have made my choice. It was a right choice, or some may say it is the wrong choice.

Regards Tony

I believe it is the wrong choice. I believe one has to look at the results. Does this mean you have stopped watching for the return of Jesus. If so that means you will be caught by surprise and not make a rational decision or even have the right information to make the needed decision.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe it is the wrong choice. I believe one has to look at the results. Does this mean you have stopped watching for the return of Jesus. If so that means you will be caught by surprise and not make a rational decision or even have the right information to make the needed decision.

I agree people have to make their own rational decisions. Faith in God always requires us to watch and act.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't believe any of that is rational. Of course you can believe in the bogeyman if you want but it is still irrational.

Why isn't it rational?

 

[CG Didymus]

I agree people have to make their own rational decisions. Faith in God always requires us to watch and act.

Regards Tony

And again, What will the Second Coming look like? What are we supposed to be looking for? Has all the prophecies been fulfilled? Baha'is say "yes". Christians say "no". That every eye will see him. That he will return to the Mt. of Olives. There will be the great battle of Armageddon. And on and on. The Baha'i answer is that these things did not get fulfilled literally, but spiritually. He's come to Mt. Carmel. Christians believe Jesus is coming back. Baha'is say the body of Jesus is dead. The Spirit of Christ, in Baha'u'llah, has already come back. Yeah, let's see? Ah, how do I make a "rational" decision on who's right?