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The irony in the Baha'i faith

Jim

Nets of Wonder
You are just trying to make a fool of us. You say that messages of these seven religions are outdated and then you expect us to respect you! And for what? For some uneducated 19th Century Iranian who said that he had a vision of the Maid of Heaven and is now an image, a replica of Allah! And this in 21st Century! I am afraid you are asking too much from us.
:p to you, too.
Oh, I am sorry that you have been reported.
Thanks. :)
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Of course. An atheist is someone who lacks or doesn’t have a belief in god or gods. You don’t necessarily disbelief in god. So God could exist. You just haven’t had sufficient evidence to establish He definitively does exist.

Some online atheists even say you could be 99% certain He does exist, but there’s that niggling doubt. Therefore you must be an atheist because you don’t have absolute certainty.
You seem to be describing an agnostic.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
You seem to be describing an agnostic.
The point was some atheists want to extend the boundaries of what is and isn’t an atheist. Of course what I describe is more like an agnostic than an atheist. I personally would label someone who is 99% certain of the existence of a God or gods a theist. But its semantics really. Its up to each of us how we define ourselves. @Jim considers himself an atheist. I’m not sure about that but I give him the benefit of the doubt. It can be a sensitive matter in a strongly theistic faith community. For me part of my theistic identify identify are qualities such as love, compassion, tolerance and patience. Its up to Jim how he describes himself, how much he wants to reveal and explain how that fits with being a Baha’i. Personally I have no problem with it. Behaviour is much more important to me than belief.
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The point was some atheists want to extend the boundaries of what is and isn’t an atheist. Of course what I describe is more like an agnostic than an atheist. I personally would label someone who is 99% certain of the existence of a God or gods a theist. But its semantics really. Its up to each of us how we define ourselves. @Jim considers himself an atheist. I’m not sure about that but I give him the benefit of the doubt. It can be a sensitive matter in a strongly theistic faith community. For me part of my theistic identify identify are qualities such as love, compassion, tolerance and patience. Its up to Jim how he describes himself, how much he wants to reveal and explain how that fits with being a Baha’i. Personally I have no problem with it. Behaviour is much more important to me than belief.
Fair enough
I do accept that atheism can vary in different people. I believe in a Diety, but identify self as atheist because I do not believe in an interested or
involved God. But that auto excludes me from believing in or being on any Abrahamic religion .

If you just think through your Bahai daily compulsory prayers, you would surely have difficulty with any if you were any kind of agnostic or atheist.
:shrug:
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Fair enough
I do accept that atheism can vary in different people. I believe in a Diety, but identify self as atheist because I do not believe in an interested or
involved God. But that auto excludes me from believing in or being on any Abrahamic religion .

If you just think through your Bahai daily compulsory prayers, you would surely have difficulty with any if you were any kind of agnostic or atheist.
:shrug:
The Baha’i Writings including the obligatory prayers strongly suggest a Creator God that is concerned for humanity and intervenes in human affairs. This outlook is consistent with Hindu theism held by a majority of Hindus.

One aspect of liberal theology movements is to allegorise the story of God and make God Himself a symbol rather than an entity that truly exists. The same approach could be taken with the Baha’i writings. I personally don’t agree or see it that way but each to their own.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I believe in a Diety, but identify self as atheist because I do not believe in an interested or
involved God. But that auto excludes me from believing in or being on any Abrahamic religion.
If that excludes you from membership in the Baha’i community, that’s by your choice and not mine.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Its up to Jim how he describes himself, how much he wants to reveal and explain how that fits with being a Baha’i.
My explanation of it is in dozens of posts all over these forums. My heart is an open book here, for anyone who actually wants to read it.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
You say that messages of these seven religions are outdated ...
I think that you’re right to highlight that, and to criticize Baha’i for obscuring it sometimes.

I disagree with saying that all religions are one, and trying to reconcile the beliefs that people associate with them.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hi folks,

The irony in the Baha'i faith is that they, despite their claim to do otherwise, facilitate religious animosities or at least irritation between religious groups (at least against themselves) by devaluing other people‘s religious backgrounds, which by nature is a very personal thing and might easily lead to feelings of being offended.

Please discuss.

From what I understand, of what Baha'u'llah offered, is not the devaluing of any Faith. To me it enables the valuing one's ones faith to raise it back above human devaluing.

I see what was abrogated, was all human intervention in what was from God.

As such the Message of Baha'u'llah will fully explain one's faith, help them to understand what is from God and what has been added by man.

That being said, no person is compelled to embrace the Message of Baha'u'llah and I do not expect many people will be able to embrace that concept without thinking their faith has been devalued.

It is just not the way I see it and I see that all people of all Faiths that do accept what Baha'u'llah offered, only find greater strength in the Faith they originally found God in.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
My explanation of it is in dozens of posts all over these forums. My heart is an open book here, for anyone who actually wants to read it.
Sure, but I’m not reading all your posts as you’re not reading mine. Last time I asked you about it you appeared reticent to explain so I let it slide. If we’re sincere we’re all seekers of truth here, you and I included. The core question I explore is how Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation fits or doesn’t fit with other beliefs. I can usually do that without mentioning the Baha’i Faith at all. In that sense my emphasis is to learn as opposed to teaching others about the Baha’i Faith. Of course if I’m asked I’ll share my knowledge. If an OP is started that misrepresents my faith like this one I’ll correct the misinformation where possible.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Only if you change the meaning of 'creation' substantially. Carry on.

Do you mean God emanates in Hinduism?

Emanationism is a transcendent principle from which everything is derived, and is opposed to both creationism(wherein the universe is created by a sentient God who is separate from creation) and materialism(which posits no underlying subjective and/or ontological nature behind phenomena being immanent).

Emanationism - Wikipedia
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
It was damaged long before the British came and left. Arguably the largest genocide on the face of the planet occurred. The Islamic invasions were brutal. Estimates go as high as 10 million deaths, even higher. Hindu temples totally destroyed number around 100 000. The western historians may ignore it, but Indians, particularly Hindus, haven't forgotten.

How long will it be before Hitler's holocaust has no effect on the victim's psyche?

One aspect here is the impact on the soul of one who deliberately takes the life of another. It is one thing to be killed, quite another to kill. If someone kills me I don’t believe that will harm my soul. If I deliberately take the life of another the damage is immeasurable and quite possibly irreparable.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Well mine sounds nothing like 3 to me. Brahman creates. The entire universe is a thought/form/play/drama of Brahman.

Brahman animates all living entities.

Your 3. sounds unimportant.
So what’s your perspective of theism from a Hindu perspective if you don’t mind me asking?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
So what’s your perspective of theism from a Hindu perspective if you don’t mind me asking?
There are two main schools:

dvaita (meaning dual; God and creation are two)

advaita (meaning non-dual; God and creation are not-two)

The Dvaita Vedanta school believes that God (Vishnu, supreme soul) and the individual souls (jīvātman) exist as independent realities (from Wikipedia)

I would say the Abrahamic religions are Dvaita

In Advaita, a spark of Brahman/God animates all living things. The goal then is realizing the underlying Oneness.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Ah! I understand a little. A game-loving, game-addict God. :D
No, you don't understand then. A playwright is the more accurate energy.
So, 1 if it creates and interferes in the affairs of the world and 2 if it just creates but does not interfere in the ways of the world. I will like to know what kind of your Brahman is.
The entire universe is a thought-form/play/drama of Brahman. So it doesn't make sense to say 'interfere' or 'doesn't interfere'.

When a human writes a play does it makes sense to say he interferes or doesn't interfere with the characters? It is all his thought creation.

The Brahman idea is completely different from the idea of a God. I have used the word only for ease of comprehension. Brahman is not a being. It is 'all what exists', it is existence as well as non-existence. Only people familiar with Quantum Mechanics will understand it.
The entire universe is a creative emanation of Brahman. Every movement is his thought/play/drama in an eternal now.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Brahman idea is completely different from the idea of a God. I have used the word only for ease of comprehension. Brahman is not a being. It is 'all what exists', it is existence as well as non-existence. Only people familiar with Quantum Mechanics will understand it.

I see the Bible says that well before we thought of Quantum Mechanics. When we look at the passage in the Bible that says;

Isaiah 45:6 so that everyone will know there is ·no other God [none besides me]. From the ·east [rising of the sun] to ·the west [its setting] they will know I alone am the Lord. 7 I make the light and create the darkness. I bring ·peace [prosperity; wholeness; C Hebrew shalom], and I ·cause [create] ·troubles [disaster; calamity]. I, the Lord, do all these things. (Expanded Version)

This is a creation of opposites, the animating force is light, the non existing force is darkness.

Thus that explains what is 'existence as well as non-existence'. Existence the animating force, non existence is the lack of existence.

It can then be known that a source for existence can be found. In this world what gives life and light it is the Manifestations of God in the spiritual realm and the Sun in this Material World. Without both of those there is nonexistence for us.

Regards Tony
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Maybe one problem is Baha’is thinking sometimes that all religions are one, and trying to find some way for that to be true, which it isn’t. Also sometimes people might think that “all religions are one” means “all religions are equal,” and that might always be what Baha’is mean when they say that.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Maybe one problem is Baha’is thinking sometimes that all religions are one, and trying to find some way for that to be true, which it isn’t. Also sometimes people might think that “all religions are one” means “all religions are equal,” and that might always be what Baha’is mean when they say that.

Which one is it, though?

All religions are equal is not wrong just a matter of perspective. All religions are one is totally false and ignorant of the facts from practitioners perspectives themselves and the religion's theology dropped for one's own opinions of what these two former things should be.
 
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