The irony in the Baha'i faith

[oldbadger]

Here's a quote:

Baha’u’llah envisioned a time in the future when the peoples of the world will live together in peace and unity as members of one faith. Universal justice will be established based on adherence to the law of God. A new civilization based on spiritual values will come into being. He referred to this as the Most Great hown Peace.​

That sounds to me like Baha'is would rule the world.

Yes.
And they would rule over non-Bahais and subject them to its laws and decisions.

And they would be treated like the Bab's goats, maybe? Certainly not like the Bab's sheep.

For this reason the followers of this faith should be shown these main objectives, in case they were never told about them.

Yet again I read a Bahai post which suggests that some outsiders on RF misinform about Bahai. The way to respond to this is to show writings and historical reports and ask direct questions which need a clear 'Yes' or 'No' in response. Then the misinformants can show themselves, but of course some Bahais just don't know the truth, imo.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Please quote from Scriptures, where it says Kalki comes 432000 years, or as you calculated 426879 years.

According to Puranic sources, Krishna's departure marks the end of Dvapara Yuga and the start of Kali Yuga, which is dated to 17/18 February 3102 BCE.
Kali Yuga - Wikipedia
Kali Yuga equals 432,000 human years
Yuga - Wikipedia
Therefore, as Kalki will come towards the end of Kali Yuga, that leaves 432,000 year - 3102 BCE years - 2019 CE years = 426,879 years from now.
Even the dates can be calculated just as the exact date of the beginning of Kali Yuga too is given, though I would not go into that detail.
So, anyone claiming to be Kalki before that time will be an imposter and a charlatan. As simple as that.
(forget about what Yukteshwar says. He spoke trash for his American Christian audience. He has no standing in traditional Hinduism)

 

[Aupmanyav]

Oh, and another positive is that these topics have gotten Hindus here that would never have otherwise gotten involved. And I thank you for that. I've learned stuff from you Baha'is and them ..

Yeah, if the Bahais were not talking of Hinduism, we would not have come here at all. We are least bothered about the fakes in Abrahamic religions.

This peace will be built by the Governments of the world (Aup. adds: and all the 7.5 billion people of the world, willingly, submit to ..), but only when they submit to what Baha'u'llah revealed, as required for a Lesser Peace.

What do you people smoke, Tony?

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is the irony of Hinduism. Most Hindus believe in god or Gods yet another Hindu can state as a categorical fact there are no such God or gods.

No irony. There will always be ignorants and those with better analytical ability in the world. The ignorants will believe on old scriptures and people whom they consider to be prophets \ messengers \ sons \ manifestations \ mahdis from their imaginary Flying Spaghetti Monsters. Other people who would refine their views based on evidence and science. New knowledge will come to people who have the aptitude for it and not to the people who keep their eyes, ears and mind closed.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'll come back in a bit. This stood out at me because this is what many on this board is kind of getting at.

...but bahai sees Hindu and Bahai source aligned with each other, so we wouldn't need to talk with a Hindu/Bahai.

A lot of their terms that define their god are in Sanskrit and totally in a language and mythology I don't understand. But I can kind of understand bahai because I'm familiar with abrahamic religions. Since bahai is saying both religions have one god, can you describe the god in which both Hindu and Bahai believe in?

It is not hard to find common theistic concepts between the Baha’i Faith and Hinduism. As you may recall I grew up Christian and become a Baha’i in my mid 20s. I live in a country where Christianity is the main religion. So I was a Christian first and Baha’i second. I’ve never been a Hindu nor grown up in a Hindu culture. That being said like most people living in a multicultural community I’ve had significant contact with Hindus. Besides it easy to find some basic information to get us started.

As we know the concept of God in Hinduism varies to include a wide range of beliefs including henotheism, monotheism, polytheism, panentheism, pantheism, monism, and atheism.

The Bhagavad Gita is a particularly important book for many Hindus and Baha’is. The Gita refers to loving devotion to a primary God such as Avatars of Vishnu, Krishna being a key example. Alongside Vishnu we have Shiva and Brahman.

There are a few Hindus on this site who identify with Advaita Vedanta where atman within every living being as being the same as Vishnu, Shiva or Brahman. Such a view probably wouldn’t be supported by the Baha’i Writings. However in describing theistic concepts it becomes a complex matter. Baha’is are encouraged to let deeds not words be our adorning and be distinguished by good character and works. If Theism facilitates a moral life then it is praiseworthy. If it becomes words that ends in words then we become a tree without fruit. So merit is seen with an atheist or one with an incorrect Theism provided they live a moral life.

Hindus following Dvaita Vedanta consider that the individual souls and the eternal metaphysical Absolute (Brahman) exist as independent realities that these are distinct. Such a philosophical system of dualism especially as set out in the Vedas was popularised by Madhvacharya in the 13th century has been influential on Hinduism. Especially the influence of Madhva's philosophy has been most prominent and pronounced on the Chaitanya school of Bengal Vaishnavism. Madhva taught that in the beginning there was only one God and that was Narayana or Vishnu and refused to accept any claims that other Hindu deities, such as Brahma or Shiva, might be equally the highest.

It has been claimed by some scholars that the Dvaita tradition founded by Madhvacharya in 13th century is based on a concept similar to God in other major world religions. Their writings also led some early colonial-era Indologists to suggest Madhvacharya was influenced by Christianity, but later scholarship has rejected this theory. Madhva's historical influence in Hinduism, has been salutary, but not extensive.

Adapted from:
God in Hinduism - Wikipedia

 

[Dawnofhope]

No irony. There will always be ignorants and those with better analytical ability in the world. The ignorants will believe on old scriptures and people whom they consider to be prophets \ messengers \ sons \ manifestations \ mahdis from their imaginary Flying Spaghetti Monsters. Other people who would refine their views based on evidence and science. New knowledge will come to people who have the aptitude for it and not to the people who keep their eyes, ears and mind closed.

The irony for me is how strongly you assert your beliefs and vaunt them as superior to the inferior beliefs of your fellow Theistic Hindu. Obviously Abrahamics will be the lowest of the low.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hi folks,

The irony in the Baha'i faith is that they, despite their claim to do otherwise, facilitate religious animosities or at least irritation between religious groups (at least against themselves) by devaluing other people‘s religious backgrounds, which by nature is a very personal thing and might easily lead to feelings of being offended.

Of course, in the first place, like any other people, Baha'is are individuals, but my intent is to describe what I see as an overall characteristic in that faith, regardless of any anecdotal evidence.

Please discuss.

In which specific ways do you believe we are facilitating religious animosities? Please give some examples.

In which way do yo feel the Baha’i Faith devalues other peoples religious backgrounds?

 

[Dawnofhope]

According to Puranic sources, Krishna's departure marks the end of Dvapara Yuga and the start of Kali Yuga, which is dated to 17/18 February 3102 BCE.
Kali Yuga - Wikipedia
Kali Yuga equals 432,000 human years
Yuga - Wikipedia
Therefore, as Kalki will come towards the end of Kali Yuga, that leaves 432,000 year - 3102 BCE years - 2019 CE years = 426,879 years from now.
Even the dates can be calculated just as the exact date of the beginning of Kali Yuga too is given, though I would not go into that detail.
So, anyone claiming to be Kalki before that time will be an imposter and a charlatan. As simple as that.
(forget about what Yukteshwar says. He spoke trash for his American Christian audience. He has no standing in traditional Hinduism)

Sounds like no one really knows for certain and the Puranas have a great deal of mythology.

From your source:

Contemporary analysis of historical data from the last 11 millennia[12] matches with the indigenous Saptarishi Calendar.[13] The length of the transitional periods between each yuga is unclear, and can only be estimated based on historical data of past cataclysmic events. Using a 300 year (10% of the length of a particular yuga) period for transitions, Kali Yuga has either ended recently in the past 100 to 200 years, or is to end soon sometime in the next 100 years.

Kali Yuga - Wikipedia

So doesn’t the Kalki Avatar come at the end of the Kali Yuga?

He appears at the end of Kali Yuga to restore the order of the world.

Hindus believe that human civilization degenerates spiritually during the Kali Yuga.[17] Common attributes and consequences are spiritual bankruptcy, mindless hedonism, breakdown of all social structure, greed and materialism, unrestricted egotism, afflictions and maladies of mind and body.

Kalki - Wikipedia

 

[Aupmanyav]

Or the Buddha, did He not say His teachings will be lost, and someOne else come to restore it again?

Ah, Yes, Buudha said so. But he also said that it will happen when people have 80,000 year life-span.
It did not happen 200 years ago in Iran (Bahaullahs time) where the life-span may have been of 60 years.

‘And in the time of the people with an eighty thousand-year life-span, there will arise in the capital city of Ketumati a king called Sankha, a wheel-turning monarch, a righteous monarch of the law, conqueror of the four quarters... (as verse 2).'
DN26 Cakkavatti-Sῑhanāda Sutta: The Lion’s Roar on the Turning of the Wheel

You making it out of ...

 

[Marcion]

Sounds like no one really knows for certain and the Puranas have a great deal of mythology.

From your source:

Contemporary analysis of historical data from the last 11 millennia[12] matches with the indigenous Saptarishi Calendar.[13] The length of the transitional periods between each yuga is unclear, and can only be estimated based on historical data of past cataclysmic events. Using a 300 year (10% of the length of a particular yuga) period for transitions, Kali Yuga has either ended recently in the past 100 to 200 years, or is to end soon sometime in the next 100 years.

Kali Yuga - Wikipedia

So doesn’t the Kalki Avatar come at the end of the Kali Yuga?

He appears at the end of Kali Yuga to restore the order of the world.

Hindus believe that human civilization degenerates spiritually during the Kali Yuga.[17] Common attributes and consequences are spiritual bankruptcy, mindless hedonism, breakdown of all social structure, greed and materialism, unrestricted egotism, afflictions and maladies of mind and body.

That is why I would speak of the Puranic religion (Hinduism is not a religion) because I see the Purana's and the idea of a literal and very long lasting Kali Yuga as religious mythology.
You could see the advent of communism and fascism as a kind of darkest period in human history that was more or less defeated in the last century.
Such a dark very crude period calls forth a great spiritual leader who gives a renewed ideology for the suffering humanity so that Dharma can be restored in human society.
Only believers in the theory of avatarism would call such a great leader an avatar.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Kali Yuga has either ended recently in the past 100 to 200 years, or is to end soon sometime in the next 100 years.

"The Kali Yuga is an important concept in both Theosophy and Anthroposophy, and in the writings of Helena Blavatsky, W.Q. Judge, Rudolf Steiner, and Traditionalist philosophers such as René Guénon and Julius Evola, among others. Rudolf Steiner believed that the Kali Yuga ended in 1900."

How are these people connected with Hinduism? You want me to believe on people like Helena Blavatsky and her group? You must be joking.

Obviously Abrahamics will be the lowest of the low.

True, the most superstitious. One God and prophets \ sons \ messengers \ manifestations \ mahdis and what not cropping up every now and then each claiming without any evidence that their message is the final or the latest from the Flying Spaghetti Monster.[/QUOTE]

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is why I would speak of the Puranic religion (Hinduism is not a religion) because I see the Purana's and the idea of a literal and very long lasting Kali Yuga as religious mythology.
Only believers in the theory of avatarism would call such a great leader an avatar.

And yeah, such a great avatara was your Guru, Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar.
Well, you are not a Hindu. You do not even consider Hinduism a religion. So, I am not surprised that you will have different views.

 

[Dawnofhope]

According to Puranic sources, Krishna's departure marks the end of Dvapara Yuga and the start of Kali Yuga, which is dated to 17/18 February 3102 BCE.
Kali Yuga - Wikipedia
Kali Yuga equals 432,000 human years
Yuga - Wikipedia
Therefore, as Kalki will come towards the end of Kali Yuga, that leaves 432,000 year - 3102 BCE years - 2019 CE years = 426,879 years from now.
Even the dates can be calculated just as the exact date of the beginning of Kali Yuga too is given, though I would not go into that detail.
So, anyone claiming to be Kalki before that time will be an imposter and a charlatan. As simple as that.
(forget about what Yukteshwar says. He spoke trash for his American Christian audience. He has no standing in traditional Hinduism)

Sounds like no one really knows for certain and the Puranas have a great deal of mythology.

From your source:

Contemporary analysis of historical data from the last 11 millennia[12] matches with the indigenous Saptarishi Calendar.[13] The length of the transitional periods between each yuga is unclear, and can only be estimated based on historical data of past cataclysmic events. Using a 300 year (10% of the length of a particular yuga) period for transitions, Kali Yuga has either ended recently in the past 100 to 200 years, or is to end soon sometime in the next 100 years.

Kali Yuga - Wikipedia

So doesn’t the Kalki Avatar come at the end of the Kali Yuga?

He appears at the end of Kali Yuga to restore the order of the world.

Hindus believe that human civilization degenerates spiritually during the Kali Yuga.[17] Common attributes and consequences are spiritual bankruptcy, mindless hedonism, breakdown of all social structure, greed and materialism, unrestricted egotism, afflictions and maladies of mind and body.

Kalki - Wikipedia

"The Kali Yuga is an important concept in both Theosophy and Anthroposophy, and in the writings of Helena Blavatsky, W.Q. Judge, Rudolf Steiner, and Traditionalist philosophers such as René Guénon and Julius Evola, among others. Rudolf Steiner believed that the Kali Yuga ended in 1900."

How are these people connected with Hinduism? You want me to believe on people like Helena Blavatsky and her group? You must be joking.

What do you people smoke, Tony?

Seriously!? Why pray tell are you taking about Rudolf Steiner?

I’m not trying to convince you of anything. You raised the issue of the Kalki Avatar, the final Avatar of Vishnu. Its an interesting topic as its relevant to both Hinduism and the Baha’i Faith. You suggested the Kalki Avatar would come in the very distant future but then say it’s not going to happen at all. There is no Vishnu, Shiva or Brahma for you. The Kalki Avatar is pure mythology and rational enlightened atheists such as yourself can well dispense with this nonsense. Nevertheless the topic is of interest and I believe highly relevant to the OP.

Baha’i beliefs around the Kalki Avatar may well be a source of division between Baha’is and some Hindus. For that reason I would generally avoid raising the matter. However the OP is really Hindus who want to critically evaluate the Baha’i Faith. So sure, the Kalki Avatar is now on the table for anyone whose interested.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That is why I would speak of the Puranic religion (Hinduism is not a religion) because I see the Purana's and the idea of a literal and very long lasting Kali Yuga as religious mythology.
You could see the advent of communism and fascism as a kind of darkest period in human history that was more or less defeated in the last century.
Such a dark very crude period calls forth a great spiritual leader who gives a renewed ideology for the suffering humanity so that Dharma can be restored in human society.
Only believers in the theory of avatarism would call such a great leader an avatar.

And yeah, such a great avatara was your Guru, Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar.
Well, you are not a Hindu. You do not even consider Hinduism a religion. So, I am not surprised that you will have different views.

Well @Marcion good to see you again. Welcome back into the arena of Hindu-Baha’i discussions. It is not necessarily the easiest of discussions.

It would appear that one Hindu here doesn’t see you as being a Hindu at all. Strong words really. Although your preceptor is not someone I know or follow I’m curious as to why @Aupmanyav would speak so harshly. Well, Avatars are certainly an important concept for many Hindus as for Baha’is so it would appear a potentially useful point of discussion between Baha’is and Hindus.

Here’s a starting point from Wikipedia to assist people who don’t really know to much about Avatars and Hinduism. As you have expertise in this area you may want to critique it from either a Hindu or non-Hindu position.

The concept of avatar within Hinduism is most often associated with Vishnu, the preserver or sustainer aspect of God within the Hindu Trinity or Trimurti of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Vishnu's avatars descend to empower the good and fight evil, thereby restoring Dharma. Traditional Hindus see themselves not as "Hindu", but as Vaishnava (Worshippers of Vishnu), Shaiva (Worshippers of Shiva), or Shakta (Worshipper of the Shakti). Each of the deities has its own iconography and mythology, but common to all is the fact that the divine reality has an explicit form, a form that the worshipper can behold.[34] An oft-quoted passage from the Bhagavad Gita describes the typical role of an avatar of Vishnu:[10][30]

Whenever righteousness wanes and unrighteousness increases I send myself forth.
For the protection of the good and for the destruction of evil, and for the establishment of righteousness, I come into being age after age.

— Bhagavad Gita 4.7–8

The Vishnu avatars appear in Hindu mythology whenever the cosmos is in crisis, typically because the evil has grown stronger and has thrown the cosmos out of its balance.[35] The avatar then appears in a material form, to destroy evil and its sources, and restore the cosmic balance between the ever-present forces of good and evil.[35]

The most known and celebrated avatars of Vishnu, within the Vaishnavism traditions of Hinduism, are Krishna, Rama, Narayana and Vasudeva. These names have extensive literature associated with them, each has its own characteristics, legends and associated arts.[30] The Mahabharata, for example, includes Krishna, while the Ramayana includes Rama.

Avatar - Wikipedia

From a Baha’i perspective I really have no serious criticism. It certainly fits with a Baha’i worldview from what I can see. I’m just one Baha’i and my colleagues may differ in their opinions.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why pray tell are you taking about Rudolf Steiner?
You suggested the Kalki Avatar would come in the very distant future but then say it’s not going to happen at all. There is no Vishnu, Shiva or Brahma for you. The Kalki Avatar is pure mythology and rational enlightened atheists such as yourself can well dispense with this nonsense.
However the OP is really Hindus who want to critically evaluate the Baha’i Faith. So sure, the Kalki Avatar is now on the table for anyone whose interested.

- Rudolf Joseph Lorenz Steiner was an Austrian clairvoyant - Wikipedia. So, certainly not my type of person.
- You know that I am an atheist Hindu, so no question of Gods \ Goddesses or an avatara with me. I am an Advaitist, for me you or even a stone is none other than Brahman. But we have theists among our fold, and they believe there will be a Kalki avatara at the end of Kali Yuga, which tradition says will last for 432,000 years. If someone says anything otherwise, that is not my tradition.
- Rational enlightened people should also not believe in prophets and prophecies \ sons \ messengers \ manifestations \ mahdis. That also is a sign of backwardness. I have no problem about people discussing Kalki avatara. If someone says something which contradicts Hindu tradition; then as a Hindu, I would sure point it out.

I’m curious as to why Aupmanyav would speak so harshly.

Harshly, when was that? Marcion himself does not mention that he is a Hindu. Why are you trying to make Marcion into a Hindu?

 

[loverofhumanity]

After Baha'is saying that some of us are "anti-Baha'i"... we have a "vendetta" against the Baha'is... we are biased against the Baha'is and so on... you and I think maybe Adrian were the only Baha'is that said that you appreciated the questions. This is a great opportunity for Baha'is. You've got Hindus right here, right now. If the Baha'is can't make friendships with Hindus, what hope is there for Baha'is uniting any of the other religions. I don't think it gets much more tolerant than that.

I enjoy your questions because they really make me think and try to learn more. But I try to keep in mind that more importantly than being defensive is to try and just get along despite diversity of thought. You’re right in that myself and others need to be mature in our discussions and keep the peace despite differing understandings.

So CG, whatever your views and questions feel completely free to say to me what’s on your mind, in your heart or what’s bugging you. It doesn’t matter what your opinion is I would like to always consider you a friend.

 

[Dawnofhope]

- Rudolf Joseph Lorenz Steiner was an Austrian clairvoyant - Wikipedia. So, certainly not my type of person.
- You know that I am an atheist Hindu, so no question of Gods \ Goddesses or an avatara with me. I am an Advaitist, for me you or even a stone is none other than Brahman. But we have theists among our fold, and they believe there will be a Kalki avatara at the end of Kali Yuga, which tradition says will last for 432,000 years. If someone says anything otherwise, that is not my tradition.
- Rational enlightened people should also not believe in prophets and prophecies \ sons \ messengers \ manifestations \ mahdis. That also is a sign of backwardness. I have no problem about people discussing Kalki avatara. If someone says something which contradicts Hindu tradition; then as a Hindu, I would sure point it out.Harshly, when was that? Marcion himself does not mention that he is a Hindu. Why are you trying to make Marcion into a Hindu?

I had understood @Marcion considered himself a Hindu but I accept if I’m wrong about that.

So in regards a more recent estimate of the end of the Yuga Kali-yuga I note:

Other authors, such as the revered Hindu guru Swami Sri Yukteswar[14] in his book The Holy Science, as well as the influential Yogi Paramhansa Yogananda,[15] believe that the Kali Yuga has already ended, and that we are now in an ascending Dvapara Yuga. This calculation is also supported [16]by modern-day self-styled spiritual promoters such as Jaggi Vasudev.

Kali Yuga - Wikipedia

What are your thoughts about the authenticity of the three individuals above?

I’m pleased you are here to provide an opinion as to what is authentically Hindu or not. Thanks for that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Other authors, such as the revered Hindu guru Swami Sri Yukteswar in his book The Holy Science, as well as the influential Yogi Paramhansa Yogananda, believe that the Kali Yuga has already ended, and that we are now in an ascending Dvapara Yuga. This calculation is also supported by modern-day self-styled spiritual promoters such as Jaggi Vasudev.

What are your thoughts about the authenticity of the three individuals above?

All the three are peripheral to traditional Hindu thought - 'modern-day self-styled spiritual promoters' - as Wikipedia well notes, upstarts.
They are dime a dozen in India, and many a times, crooks and criminals.

.. or what’s bugging you.

I do not think anything is bugging CG. He is a cool guy.

 

[Marcion]

I had understood @Marcion considered himself a Hindu but I accept if I’m wrong about that.

If you treat Hinduism as a religion (like Christianity, Islam and Bahaism), you run into all kinds of complications, because it is not.
I don't believe Hinduism can be defined in any way like Christianity or Islam can be.
One could say that any tradition of Indian origin that is not Buddhist or Jain should be called Hindu, others however would also prefer Buddhism and Jainism to be included in the Hindu fold (on good grounds).
By no means however can you compare such a very large network of Indian traditions with a religion.
You can call it that for administrative reasons, but that does not mean much in a substantive assesment (if that is proper english).

I practise Tantra Yoga, which is not a religion because it can be found in Hindu, Bhuddist as well as in Jain contexts and is even said to be at the base of Taoism (and the original teachings of Yeshua).

In my modernized type of Tantra-Yoga there is no connection to the mythologies of the Puranic religion (which is even younger than Islam and Christianity) nor to any other Hindu mythologies such as ideas about a long golden spiritual age in the distant past and a so-called Kali-yuga in the present age nor does it recognize the idea of avatars.

That is the problem (for me personally) with the Bahai viewpoint. Because it uses very simple religious templates only, it has to invent a mythological (Bahai) religious framework for God having worked through religions and their so-called messengers or founders. This may satisfy Bahai followers but realistically it is quite meaningless.

 

[Jim]

(edited for clarification)
I just want to remind people not to confuse the individual personal beliefs and practices that people in Internet discussions call “the Baha’i Faith” with the community whose Universal House of Justice is seated on Mount Carmel, which is also called “the Baha’i Faith.”