The irony in the Baha'i faith

[loverofhumanity]

I have to break it up. Since the questions weren't question/answer, this will be all over the place.













That's definitely a good belief. Many religions do share this as well. All is good.

Does Baha'i religion replace older religions (in order to achieve this goal)?

The oneness of mankind would involve replacing other religions in order for them to evolve into one that promotes oneness (so, disregarding teachings of that time period that teaches the opposite)?

Shaping religions in order to promote oneness bahai religion defines?



We agree with the oneness of humanity. We disagree with the religious part, though, not the humanity part.



That's good for many religions. I know other religions that do this too; that, not the focus, though. We're talking about the religion part of bahai (god, manifestations, etc) rather than charity and humanity.

Does Baha'i believe that Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Buddhist, believe in the same abrahamic god?

Yes. The issue isn't the oneness of humanity. It's the religious part.

God: Are all religions under one abrahamic god?
Manifestations:
a. Do manifestations replace "old" teachings in place of new ones (that relate to oneness)?
b. Are other religions (Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Christian) wrong because they hold on to old beliefs that do not help humanity in today's period?

Years ago, one Bahai mentioned that scriptures were distorted. I can't quote verbatim.

Scriptures: Do bahai change the scriptures (Suttas, Bible, Quran) to its original in order to promote oneness of humanity rather than division?

1. As to God. This is how Baha’u’llah puts it.

There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God.

So He is saying no matter how we term it or understand it, it’s the same heavenly Source all religions derive their inspiration from.

a) Jesus said to love thy neighbour, with Muhammad He said to love ones country and with Baha’u’llah He said to love all humanity. So as the world progressed and expanded so too the Manifestations expanded the concept of oneness and love which incorporates the previous concept for love of ones country includes love of ones neighbour and to love humanity includes nations, individuals as well as races and religions.

B) All the religions you mentioned are true. We read from all their Holy Books each week in our Houses of Worship all over the world. (Quran, Bible, Bhagavad-Gita, Zend Avesta etc)

Actually the more each religion follows and obeys its own teachings the better humanity will be. So if all religionists , including Baha’i, strive to live according to what each religion teaches us we would have had world peace long ago.

c) The scriptures of other religions we do not believe are distorted but interpretations can be distorted. The further back in history we go the more difficult it becomes to authenticate the true author so many religious texts remain ‘attributed to’.

In the Book of Certitude Baha’u’llah points out that with so many copies having been distributed of Holy Texts actual physical distortion is well nigh impossible without being detected but by corruption of a text He said is meant ‘corruption of the meaning’. So some have twisted the meanings of Holy texts to provoke war which was never the real intention.

D) No Baha’is do not change any religious text. But we read them as devoted believers would because we believe in them too. So I read the Dhamapadda as a Buddhist would as I believe in Buddha and the Gospels I read with devotion as a Christian would with humility and utmost reverence.

This is an inscription Abdul-Baha, Son of Baha’u’llah, made in a Bible in London.

Inscription in the Old Bible Written by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in Persian


THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá Abbás.

With such reverence towards all other Holy Books to Baha’is these are all part of our own belief and so we don’t change them.

 

[George-ananda]

I don't discuss individuals, George.
If I mention anything, it is about Bahai.
But many Bahais have felt the need to make very strange suggestions about me.


On the side, class, wealth and social status don't cut with me. If, for instance a Bahai should boast about their work, wealth and size of home, or show pictures of their success in various ways, it would put them down in my estimation.

You might have misunderstood me, badger. In American English 'classy' just means conducts himself in a polite, respectable and honorable manner. I consider @adrian009 'classy' in that sense.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Then according to the rules of this forum you’re proselytising.

Preaching/Proselytizing
Creating (or linking to) content intended to convert/recruit others to your religion, spirituality, sect/denomination, or lack thereof is not permitted. Similarly, attempting to convert others away from their religion, spiritual convictions, or sect/denomination will also be considered a form of preaching. Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching.

The frying pan calling kettle black. What are the Bahais doing here by starting various topics each day and quoting lengthily from Bahaullah, Abdul Baha, Shoghi Effendi and their House of Justice.

Unfortunately, the greatest "untruth" the Baha'is have brought is that they believe in the "oneness" of religion.

Hah, "oneness" of religion by spawning one more religion.

They give us life in this world. This life is for us to grow spiritually, which takes free will. Thus a reality is created where we can use our God given free will to grow our spiritual limbs, or we can also choose not to.

If you are going by the words of just one person, and that too without any evidence, then you do not have any free will. You are just dominated by Bahaullah and his ilk. Even thinking of anything beyond that would make you a breaker of covenant and your House of Justice would disown you and stop the payments, if any.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Unfortunately. I guess I'm a peace maker at heart "and" we just we have different means of coming to that peace.

I can see that.

Thank you. The context is:

So, for a short example, if Hindu believe in the same god Abrahamic does in order to promote oneness of humanity, that is a replacement or upgrade. It's saying "at the moment, Hindus are still working to build oneness, but when they know everyone comes from the same god (or agree to it) we can come to oneless of humanity.

It's saying "the old did not work, so let's together to form a new perspective."

I don't know how else to flip it so it won't sound negative.

Is this the case with Bahai views?

An upgraded Baha'i version will better clarify the nature of god or Gods. That will naturally be inclusive of some 'God of Abraham' concepts while incorporating Hindu theistic concepts that will in all likelihood include Shiva, Brahma, Vishnu and avatars. Other concepts such as the Eternal Dharma and Karma will be central to a Hindu/Baha'i narrative.

This leads me to my former question, though. They don't think in terms of... does that mean they believe in god but their perspective is different or do they not believe in god of abraham (no perspectives/colors)?

Then they will reject a Baha'i/Hindu religion and choose another path. The choice of Sampradaya is a profound and personal choice.

Thank you. I'm trying to find what other differences bahai have with other faiths without it being perspectives of the same foundation.

Do you think that's possible or does bahai not teach that?

If we have a working knowledge of two faiths, for example Christianity and the Baha'i Faith it is not hard to be able to make a list of what those two faiths have in common and where they differ.

I'm not entirely certain what you are asking here.

True. They are totally separate religions so it would be unwise to compare them outside academic purposes.

Of course. I'm more getting towards old vs new and how bahai sees the new at the expense of the old.

In regards Islam and Christianity it is very fluid. Christians have successfully incorporated the Hebrew Bible and New Testament though their theology has major problems.

The Muslims have tried and failed to incorporate the Hebrew Bible and New Testament with the Quran. They take the approach that only the Quran is the Word of God. They view the New Testament and Hebrew Bible as corrupted and superseded by the Quran. It is a good example of how NOT to integrate the former faiths (Christianity and Judaism) with the new.

The Baha'i Faith has successfully incorporated the Hebrew Bible, New Testament and the Quran with the Baha'i Writings.

True. I think the main problem (I think main?) people have with the three is its build on one foundation.

The differences are drastic, yes. Different colors. But you got to recognize different sources.

Do they believe that other religions have different sources?

Thanks for answering.

You're welcome.

I believe all genuine religion is derived from a common source. The language used to describe that source is strongly influenced by culture.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The frying pan calling kettle black. What are the Bahais doing here by starting various topics each day and quoting lengthily from Bahaullah, Abdul Baha, Shoghi Effendi and their House of Justice.

I can only speak about why I am here Aup, I can not speak for other Baha'is and their personal motives. I am here to learn about different faiths and to have friendly conversations with peoples from other faiths, cultures and backgrounds. I am happy to share the little I know with others who are interested. I have no interest in trying to convince you or anyone else here to become a Baha'i. Besides that would be proselytizing.

If you see the threads I've started on RF most are about religions other than my own. I avoid using quotations unless asked or necessary to make a point. If you feel I have been proselytizing you are free to report me. Moderators need to represent by their actions respect for the rules of the forum and are held to account the same as everyone else is.

 

[oldbadger]

But isn't that just anybody? Stuff like that from anyone doesn't impress me. The temple I go to has a few Mercedes in the parking lot. So what? I go with what our priest said ... "once they cross the sanctum line, they're all equal in the eyes of God." Just as they sometimes call death the great equaliser, so too we should view people as equals, based on character, and not much else.

I don't think so.
The person who has acquired wealth, position, property, prestige, freedom etc and is proud of that is not wicked if that is their main object in life. I have several such friends, and they are honest.

But that is not my way for good reasons. Even when I was a child I would suffer depression after receiving too many gifts on birthdays or at Xmas. I cannot have too much or I actually get depressed. One way of rising high as a kite (for me) is to collect masses of stuff together in charity, dump and deal piles and get rid of the lot. I'm just odd, is all.

It's when wealth pretends spirituality and minimalist qualities that I get well clear of it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yeah, Adrian is a classy proselytizer. Always so sweet. See what loverofhumanity is doing at the top of the page (post 101) and others elsewhere. What is it if not a crude attempt at proselytizing?

Loverof humanity is answering direct questions from another participant. Its all about the Baha'i Faith, but so too were the questions.

This thread is about the Baha'i Faith. Was it started by a Baha'i trying to Proselyte? No, it was started by a Hindu wishing to denigrate the faith of another. I'm here to defend my faith from slander and misinformation. As far as I can see so too are the Baha'i's here.

 

[oldbadger]

You might have misunderstood me, badger. In American English 'classy' just means conducts himself in a polite, respectable and honorable manner. I consider @adrian009 'classy' in that sense.

Oh! You 'mericans an' yer funny English!

Around where I live such characteristics are described as 'rare'. (joking)

 

[Dawnofhope]

The basics are fine, almost. It's the fine print stuff. What is not true to a Hindu, or a Jew, or a Christian or some other person from some other religion. It's always in the details of what the Baha'i really believe.

Well, the Baha'i Faith is an independent religion that emerged from the nineteenth century out of Persia. Its bound to have a few differences with Hinduism, Judaism and Christianity. The starting point for an interfaith dialogue is to accept and respect differences, not get upset and angry because we have a different worldview.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yeah, Adrian is a classy proselytizer. Always so sweet. See what loverofhumanity is doing at the top of the page (post 101) and others elsewhere. What is it if not a crude attempt at proselytizing?

I was only answering questions that I had been asked as accurately as possible.

 

[Jim]

... and people will be all united under the one independent world religion, the Baha'i Faith.

By this is meant that all nations and kindreds will be gathered together under the shadow of this Divine Banner, which is no other than the Lordly Branch itself, and will become a single nation.

All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race and become a single people.

Shoghi Effendi (Source Document from which quotes are taken)

My current understanding of this is that all people will live in accordance with Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes and prescriptions, not that all people will become members of the Baha’i Faith, or that Baha’i spiritual assemblies will replace the governments. Different Baha’is have different views of that, but if the question is what is the leadership aiming for, I don’t think it’s aiming for Baha’i spiritual assemblies to replace the governments, or ever will. I don’t think that it’s aiming for all people to become members, or ever will.

 

[Dawnofhope]

OK, but I think you are presenting the modern liberal thinking western palatable version.

What I honestly see is that the words of the Guardian (the official interpreter) not really being understood and given a palatable interpretation.

Per Shoghi Effendi the Baha’i Faith (under the banner ‘Baha’i) is to be the overwhelming one religion and one administrative order replacing the religions and governmental organizations of the earlier dispensations.

I knew people in the 1980’s with an encyclopedic knowledge of the faith and these things I say were not in question.

I became a Baha'i during 1990 in New Zealand. I have no doubt the thinking you mention was how some Baha'is understood it. I recall expectation about how some cataclysmic and dramatic event would happen before the turn of the millennia and large numbers would come into the faith. That never happened of course. Its easy to get hyped up about the future and imagine what will happen. As I understand that is what Baha'u'llah referred to as 'vain imaginings'. I also recall Baha'is would talk about 'Kitab-i-hearsay'. That means stuff Baha'is believe that has nothing to do with the Baha'i Writings...like Krishna founded Hinduism or some overly simplistic view of religious history that sees a linear progression from Adam to Baha'u'llah.

Shoghi Effendi certainly talks about a time when large numbers of people throughout the world will become Baha'i's.

"... presage and hasten the advent of the day which, as prophesied by `Abdu'l-Bahá, will witness the entry by troops of peoples of divers nations and races into the Bahá'í world--a day which, viewed in its proper perspective, will be the prelude to that long awaited hour when a mass conversion on the part of these same nations and races, and as a direct result of a chain of events, momentous and possibly catastrophic in nature ..., will suddenly revolutionize the fortunes of the Faith, derange the equilibrium of the world, and reinforce a thousandfold the numerical strength as well as the material power and the spiritual authority of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh."

I can see how some Baha'is might read into these words the whole world will become Baha'i but it seems a stretch at best to me. Then we have no way of knowing when any of this will happen. How long did it take the disciples of Christ take to spread the Gospels to all the nations?

 

[Jim]

OK, but I think you are presenting the modern liberal thinking western palatable version.

What I honestly see is that the words of the Guardian (the official interpreter) not really being understood and given a palatable interpretation.

Per Shoghi Effendi the Baha’i Faith (under the banner ‘Baha’i) is to be the overwhelming one religion and one administrative order replacing the religions and governmental organizations of the earlier dispensations.

I knew people in the 1980’s with an encyclopedic knowledge of the faith and these things I say were not in question.

I don’t think that Bahá’u’lláh, Abdu’l-Baha, or Shoghi Effendi ever intended for Baha’i spiritual assemblies to replace the governments, but for discussion purposes let’s say that they did. What difference does that make now, if most or all of the members aren’t thinking that way any more?

 

[Aupmanyav]

An upgraded Baha'i version will better clarify the nature of god or Gods.

Ah! So, you think Bahaism now needs an upgrade after 200 years. Your manifestation was talking about some 800 years. Your Allah needs to send another manifestation.

 

[Sirona]

Well, the Baha'i Faith is an independent religion that emerged from the nineteenth century out of Persia. Its bound to have a few differences with Hinduism, Judaism and Christianity.

I guess this is as good as it gets in admitting that the Baha'i faith doesn't accurately represent Hinduism. Most likely, the same is true for the other religions, but to each their own.

]The starting point for an interfaith dialogue is to accept and respect differences, not get upset and angry because we have a different worldview.

I am surprised you didn't notice that this is in the section "General Religious Debates", and not "Interfaith". If I had wanted some Interfaith discussion I'd definitely have gone there. And I think a culture that doesn't allow religious debates might not be too generous in granting other fundamental freedoms as well.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Ah! So, you think Bahaism now needs an upgrade after 200 years. Your manifestation was talking about some 800 years. Your Allah needs to send another manifestation.

My point was Hinduism has no agreement or consensus about the nature of gods and God but I think you knew that.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I guess that is as good as it gets in admitting that the Baha'i faith doesn't accurately represent Hinduism. Most likely, the same is true for the other religions, but to each their own.

The Baha’i Faith does not claim to represent Hinduism or any other religion apart from the Baha’i Faith. Once again, if you are going to start a thread criticising a religion make sure you have a working knowledge of that religion. You clearly don’t.

 

[Sirona]

The Baha’i Faith does not claim to represent Hinduism or any other religion apart from the Baha’i Faith. Once again, if you are going to start a thread criticising a religion make sure you have a working knowledge of that religion. You clearly don’t.

There are quite a few differences between Hinduism and the Bahai faith. Let me pick out one for you.

1. Bahai's put Baha'ullah in the same category as Krishna.
2. Although, as you said there is no general consensus in Hinduism about the nature of God(s), many Hindus consider Krishna as (a) God according to the Bhagavad-Gita and the Bhagavatapurana
3. If Baha'ullah is in the same category as Krishna, then this would mean from a Hindu perspective (a) either, Krishna was a mere mortal or (b) Baha'ullah is God.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't think so.
The person who has acquired wealth, position, property, prestige, freedom etc and is proud of that is not wicked if that is their main object in life. I have several such friends, and they are honest.

But that is not my way for good reasons. Even when I was a child I would suffer depression after receiving too many gifts on birthdays or at Xmas. I cannot have too much or I actually get depressed. One way of rising high as a kite (for me) is to collect masses of stuff together in charity, dump and deal piles and get rid of the lot. I'm just odd, is all.

It's when wealth pretends spirituality and minimalist qualities that I get well clear of it.

I wasn't indicating that all wealth is bad. I know a few wealthy people give creatively without thought of reward, and are really down to earth. My point was that the 'attitude' ones are found all over too. Overall, they're in the minority.

 

[Aupmanyav]

My point was Hinduism has no agreement or consensus about the nature of gods and God but I think you knew that.

There is no question of agreement or disagreement, when the thing does not even exist. What exists is Brahman \ physical energy \ space, and nothing else. That is what we started with at the time of Big Bang. I dont expect prophets \ sons \ messengers \ manifestations \ mahdis of by-gone ages to have known the truth. This is 21st Century.