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If God exists, why does He allow suffering?

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Hey there. You look troubled as if the weight of the world is upon your shoulders. Friend, do not be disheartened and know that when the chips are down and everyone abandons you, Jesus still loves you. He will carry the burden of your sins. For those who are oppressed Christ will ease your suffering. Do not be afraid or perturbed.

Many of us are familiar with such a narrative in Christianity where suffering has meaning and a remedy is offered to alleviate misery. How that kind of narrative resonates is the topic of this OP.

We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?

Do religions other than Christianity provide similar narrative or is the a substantial difference in perspective?

If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?

Most religions I have examined offer some sort of liberation. In the west the liberation is from sin or wrong action...in the east liberation is from ignorance or karma. Sin and ignorance seem to be two sides of the same coin.

In order to be moral we need some sort of tool, instrument or rules to use to orient not just ourselves but each other. If we all use the same then we can all see each other as moral agents and feel assured that we live in a just society.

But circumstance or experience or even self-knowledge can leave us personally in quite a deficit of character...we need some way to see out of that deep despair of inadequacy.

It seems that in the world's mystic traditions we know that strength is weakness and weakness strength, wisdom, folly and the fool is king. With such somersaults of perspective religion allows everyone the opportunity for deliverance.

The atheist and the theist experience life in the same way...good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. The Universe and/or God obviously has set things up this way.

In a systemic reality no one being or factor is fully responsible for outcomes. The matter of the system exhibits a creative ability to transcend all intention. God does not have omnipotence or omniscience. God or an agent acts/causes and the system responds. It is as if a creator crafted the Universe out of a chaos/clay that He found available but did not know of its nature or origins before He began to work it.
 
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j1i

Smiling is charity without giving money
Hey there. You look troubled as if the weight of the world is upon your shoulders. Friend, do not be disheartened and know that when the chips are down and everyone abandons you, Jesus still loves you. He will carry the burden of your sins. For those who are oppressed Christ will ease your suffering. Do not be afraid or perturbed.

Many of us are familiar with such a narrative in Christianity where suffering has meaning and a remedy is offered to alleviate misery. How that kind of narrative resonates is the topic of this OP.

We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?

Do religions other than Christianity provide similar narrative or is the a substantial difference in perspective?

If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?


In Islam
God created us to perform the task of worship
(Worship here is not only prayer but rather doing honorary, noble and many things in our life

And God has prepared for us a very harmonious life environment, and we promised that if we thank, then our way of life will be very easy
If we disobey and move away, it will make our way of life very difficult

We got off to a sound start, and human work was like a new employee who starts off with a strong start, then complacency and less productivity with age due to boredom or lack of sincerity, but some people strive

That is why God rewarded the diligent and left the rest deviant and lead a difficult life as they want.

Pain is a matter of choice for yourself, not a divine choice for you

The door of repentance is open to all, you have chance

Jesus was a prophet warning against leaving worship to God
He encouraged sincerity to worship God truthfully

Because Jesus was a struggling human being and prophet
He was sanctified they made as a god who came to relieve people of their suffering
He was placed in the position of deity, knowing that there is no evidence that he was a god before his
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
At the end of the lesson, God is left with "sheep and goats"...each has a destination....one to life and the other to death. (Matthew 7:13-14) The sheep will go on to enjoy what God created in the beginning, and the goats, who have no interest in God or doing the right thing, will have their tenancy here terminated. (Matthew 25:31-33; 41; 46)
'"The end of the lesson" will encompass the Resurrection, and then the Final Test. Its not in this System.

Mankind will get a 'taste' of Jehovah's love -- what He's really like -- during the Thousand-year reign of Jesus....when conditions described in Revelation 21:3-4 permeate the Earth.

But sadly according to Scripture, even then, many (most?) won't genuinely want such a loving Ruler.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
. I've often heard Hindus say how a belief in reincarnation and karma can enable them to make sense of suffering. A belief in previous lives may account for particular tests and difficulties in this life, particularly one who has a disability.
Honestly, I find the notion that you face hardship in this life as a result of misdeeds in past lives to be offensive and cruel, especially since you can't even remember what you've done! It's what leads to the abuse of the caste system in India. Even animals are looked down upon as sinners who were reborn as "lower" creatures as punishment.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Hey there. You look troubled as if the weight of the world is upon your shoulders. Friend, do not be disheartened and know that when the chips are down and everyone abandons you, Jesus still loves you. He will carry the burden of your sins. For those who are oppressed Christ will ease your suffering. Do not be afraid or perturbed.

Many of us are familiar with such a narrative in Christianity where suffering has meaning and a remedy is offered to alleviate misery. How that kind of narrative resonates is the topic of this OP.

We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?

Do religions other than Christianity provide similar narrative or is the a substantial difference in perspective?

If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?
Suffering is just a part of life. It's inevitable with a world of beings with different desires, personalities, etc. and with the natural world being the way it is. God isn't there to coddle us and He never said life was going to be easy. Life certainly wasn't easy for God Himself when He came to live among us, so how dare we think we should be shielded from suffering. Suffering can be a crucible that tests who we are and strengthens us. It's not a good in of itself (I think the Catholic concepts of mortification of the flesh and redemptive suffering to be disgusting and sadomasochistic, for example) but it can lead to good in the end. It's all about perspective. Oh, and I'm saying this while I'm sitting at the library on a computer, in total poverty and with a concussion. So, yeah. Life ain't great for me at the moment, either. But it is what it is and blaming God for it is childish and short-sighted.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Suffering is just a part of life. It's inevitable with a world of beings with different desires, personalities, etc. and with the natural world being the way it is. God isn't there to coddle us and He never said life was going to be easy. Life certainly wasn't easy for God Himself when He came to live among us, so how dare we think we should be shielded from suffering. Suffering can be a crucible that tests who we are and strengthens us. It's not a good in of itself (I think the Catholic concepts of mortification of the flesh and redemptive suffering to be disgusting and sadomasochistic, for example) but it can lead to good in the end. It's all about perspective. Oh, and I'm saying this while I'm sitting at the library on a computer, in total poverty and with a concussion. So, yeah. Life ain't great for me at the moment, either. But it is what it is and blaming God for it is childish and short-sighted.
Welcome back.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
If we are not changed by our suffering, and by witnessing the suffering of others, all that suffering has been wasted.
If this was in response to me (and I admit I do not know at all if that is the case), then I did hint at the fact that others' suffering greatly impacts my perception of my own "suffering." In my original post I made mention of the fact that I use what I know of the suffering of others to judge whether my own condition should necessarily be considered "suffering." Again, where is the "line" beyond which something affecting you becomes "suffering?" Can anyone answer this?

I honestly feel that others' suffering is all we can truly gauge. If we feel what is happening to them is unfair, terrible, or there is pain being felt, then we can recognize the suffering of others. I think the danger comes when we decide to put a measurement against our own "suffering" - because the ego is very prone to taking things personally, and so sometimes even a slight amount of discomfort can be interpreted as "suffering" by an unwary soul who is the one feeling that discomfort. I have also seen this time and time again. People living very comfortable lives, and complaining about their "suffering" in one aspect of their life that is merely the "worst" thing happening to them in that moment in their lives. The "worst" thing happening to you is not necessarily "suffering." And this is what I would encourage everyone to keep in mind.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, it is not deism because I believe God intervenes by sending Messengers, so God must care or God would not send Messengers and make Covenants with man.

Yes, we can be channels through which God acts of we follow the teachings of the Messengers, so God can work through people who are channels. I just do not believe God gets involved directly, that is a Christian belief.

No, this particular view is supported by the Baha'i Writings. It is when people say that God is doing this and that that it becomes a Christian belief. For example, on my Christian radio station they sometimes say God is making them who they are as if God is doing everything and they are not making their own choices or determining their own destiny. They will say things like "God is not finished with me yet."

I do not see the view is wrong, some of our actions may not live up to the claim.

I see God's Message is that of surrender and submission unto God's Messengers.

I see the prayers offered in the Baha'i Writings are asking that we rid ourselves of our worldly self and desires to be enabled the unconstrained to shine from us.

Thus it is logical in this sense, that we can become a servant that does reflect the will of the master. That was Abdul'baha. A key being that he told us His life was an example to follow.

Look at me follow me be as I am, a choice and at the same time, God Messenger working through us.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Hi, again, Trailblazer. I'm just curious as to why you think "God designed this world so people would suffer".
I was in a bit of a hurry when I wrote that. I did not mean that the way it sounds. I meant that God designed this world knowing that people would suffer; I did not mean that God purposefully designed it so that just so people would suffer. Either way though, God is not off the hook, Imo. :(

OTOH, if God is All-Knowing and All-Wise it is logical to think that this was the best design God could have come up with to achieve what He wanted to achieve for humanity, so suffering was in humanity's best interest. But still, if you were the one suffering you might be singing a different tune. Of course, then people will tell me they have suffered but they were able to rise above it, but they cannot really know the extent of the suffering of other people, the duration or the magnitude, or what resources that person had to cope. Only the person who suffered (and God) can ever know that. All we can do is describe our experiences to other people but nobody can really understand unless they have walked in our moccasins.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
If this was in response to me (and I admit I do not know at all if that is the case), then I did hint at the fact that others' suffering greatly impacts my perception of my own "suffering." In my original post I made mention of the fact that I use what I know of the suffering of others to judge whether my own condition should necessarily be considered "suffering." Again, where is the "line" beyond which something affecting you becomes "suffering?" Can anyone answer this?
It is self-evident. If you are suffering, it IS suffering. If you are not, it is not. Most people know when they are suffering. Fear, pain, anxiety, confusion, powerlessness, hopelessness: these are all forms of suffering. Are you asking about degree? What degree of these experiences constitute "suffering"? I think the answer is whatever degree YOU determine to be sufficient to label it "suffering". Suffering is, after all, a subjective experience.
I honestly feel that others' suffering is all we can truly gauge. If we feel what is happening to them is unfair, terrible, or there is pain being felt, then we can recognize the suffering of others. I think the danger comes when we decide to put a measurement against our own "suffering" - because the ego is very prone to taking things personally, and so sometimes even a slight amount of discomfort can be interpreted as "suffering" by an unwary soul who is the one feeling that discomfort. I have also seen this time and time again. People living very comfortable lives, and complaining about their "suffering" in one aspect of their life that is merely the "worst" thing happening to them in that moment in their lives. The "worst" thing happening to you is not necessarily "suffering." And this is what I would encourage everyone to keep in mind.
Everything about suffering is relative, and subjective. And yet the suffering is as real as we experience it to be. Every time, for every one.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Again, where is the "line" beyond which something affecting you becomes "suffering?" Can anyone answer this?
I can answer it. It is suffering whenever someone says they are suffering (whether we think that situation warrants suffering or not).
My point is that nobody has the right to "question" another person's suffering, Imo.

For example, it is very arrogant to say something like "I would not be suffering if what happened to you happened to me." We are all very different in our ability to withstand certain circumstances. I know that most people would never be able to endure what I have endured and still be able to achieve what I have achieved, because they tell me that when they hear my story, but I am sure there are people who have endured much worse than me. Would I be able to endure that? I can't say I know unless it has happened to me.
People living very comfortable lives, and complaining about their "suffering" in one aspect of their life that is merely the "worst" thing happening to them in that moment in their lives. The "worst" thing happening to you is not necessarily "suffering." And this is what I would encourage everyone to keep in mind.
I agree. There might be suffering in that moment, but we have to look at their overall lives.

But what is a "comfortable life?" If you are measuring comfort by material conditions and wealth, I should be very happy, but there is more to life than material wealth and financial security. At the end of the day, all suffering is psychic pain, so it is how we relate to our situation that determines whether we will suffering or not. So about six years ago the head of the behavioral health clinic I went to for PTSD and grief reactions told me that "most people would be very happy if they had what you have" and I wanted to punch her upside the face. I know she was just trying to help but she had no right to be practicing psychology.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I don't understand. Why would God make the world to suffer, and then send messengers to get people out of suffering?
God does not MAKE people suffer. The material world is what causes ALL suffering. God MADE the material world so in that sense God causes suffering, but God is not the DIRECT cause of suffering. Suffering is caused by many things, it is not ONLY caused by our failure to follow the teachings and laws of God which are delivered through the Messengers.

It is really naive when some religious people say that all you have to do is turn to God and all your suffering will no longer be. Give me a break. That is just an indirect way of saying "if you did what I do you would never suffer. " There is no magic formula to eliminate suffering ALL suffering is psychological, so it is related to how we perceive our circumstances at the moment. Sometimes we can change our perceptions, but not always.

All that said, don't you believe that God sent Jesus to get people out of suffering? I do. :)
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?
There doesn't need to be a god for people to believe in gods ─ it seems to be a trait we've evolved to have, as a quick count of the thousands and thousands of gods we have now or have had in the past will tend to confirm.

And if at a personal level religion indeed consoles someone in frustration, distress, mourning, and so on, who can argue?

The process is emotional, not rational, so while eg the argument attributed to Epicurus is unanswerable, it's likely to be irrelevant to the particular problem / solution.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
There doesn't need to be a god for people to believe in gods ─
No, of course not... Logically speaking, there is either a God or not. :)
Since that can never be proven, belief and atheism are equally logical.
The process is emotional, not rational,
Not necessarily. It could be either emotional or rational, or a combination of both.

Nice to see you again, as always. :)
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, of course not... Logically speaking, there is either a God or not. :)
Since that can never be proven, belief and atheism are equally logical.
But that would first require a nice clear definition of a real god, wouldn't it?
Not necessarily. It could be either emotional or rational, or a combination of both.
It's true that one's own reason is sometimes helpful in dealing with one's own emotional state. The problem can often be the absence of any sense that reason would help. And in cases of grieving, especially when unbonding is involved, reason can say what it likes, the feelings won't go away till they've run their course.
Nice to see you again, as always. :)
Just so.

And I wish you a great solstice, which is about five hours away, and all the best and most cheerful for the festive season, and a really roaring Twenties coming up!
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But that would first require a nice clear definition of a real god, wouldn't it?
There is a clear definition, but not one everyone is going to recognize.
It's true that one's own reason is sometimes helpful in dealing with one's own emotional state. The problem can often be the absence of any sense that reason would help. And in cases of grieving, especially when unbonding is involved, reason can say what it likes, the feelings won't go away till they've run their course.
That is true. As you might recall, psychology is my other hat, and one I wore a lot longer than my religion hat.
And I wish you a great solstice, which is about five hours away, and all the best and most cheerful for the festive season, and a really roaring Twenties coming up!
Thanks. I did not even realize that. The holidays for me just mean more time off work. :D
I do not celebrate Christmas or New Years, I am just grateful when all is well and I am not having some big disaster, like the last two years and counting. :(
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Hey there. You look troubled as if the weight of the world is upon your shoulders. Friend, do not be disheartened and know that when the chips are down and everyone abandons you, Jesus still loves you. He will carry the burden of your sins. For those who are oppressed Christ will ease your suffering. Do not be afraid or perturbed.

Many of us are familiar with such a narrative in Christianity where suffering has meaning and a remedy is offered to alleviate misery. How that kind of narrative resonates is the topic of this OP.

We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?

Do religions other than Christianity provide similar narrative or is the a substantial difference in perspective?

If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?

First of God did not allow suffering..
It was man who brought about suffering.

Let's for say...there's a train coming...
The warning lights are flashing.and a person disobeyed warnings runs right through the lights and gets hit by the train...
Now who's at fault..
The train or the person who disobeyed the warnings?
Therefore it was man who disobeyed God and brought about all this suffering...

So it wasn't the fault God...
Had mankind obeyed God..
We wouldn't be in this mess of suffering.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Therefore it was man who disobeyed God and brought about all this suffering...

So it wasn't the fault God...
Had mankind obeyed God..
We wouldn't be in this mess of suffering.
That's true, disobeying God accounts for a lot of suffering, but it does not account for all suffering.
the material world God created is the cause of all suffering so there will always be some suffering as long as we have to live in this world. Only in heaven will suffering be no longer.
 
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