If God exists, why does He allow suffering?

[PureX]

This was the question that drove me away from Christianity.

What spontaneously comes to my mind is Epicurus' trilemma:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Catholics believe in something I would now call similar to karma. They believe you consciously suffer something and then offer it up to God in atonement for you or others, compensating bad deeds which such a "good" deed. They believe suffering endured in such way is "very valuable".

I think the problem with this "problem" is that it assumes that we humans can imagine and assign attributes to "God" and then demand to see them fulfilled (omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence), when in both fact and truth, we lack the capacity for it.

The source, sustenance and purpose of existence (all being) is a profound mystery to us. Calling it "God" and then imagining some sort of divine being is just a way for our limited minds to conceptualize and intellectualize that profound mystery. Trying to then force our conception onto that mystery, and expecting that the mystery somehow comply, is just self-centered hubris. That won't stop most of us from doing it, of course, but it does explain why we get no "answers" from the practice.

 

[osgart]

There is a you and me, that is the reality. All that Eastern wisdom really does not add up.

Humans, perhaps, are the makings of a far less then ideal intelligence. We are both purposeful, and purposeless. The purpose is to see if life can survive, and flourish. The purpose is to learn and see if there is anything worthy to experience. The purpose is to find out what reality is and has to offer.

The purposelessness is that life is a scavenger in a vast void. Suffering is an brute fact of nature, nothing more, nothing less.

Whatever, or whomever created humans does not have all the answers. Our place in the universe is a miracle.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?

Absolutely refuse to let it take anything from you. That's what I do. I've tried many times to describe how I accomplish this, but I never seem to convey it quite right, or maybe it's that people just don't want to hear it. I think a lot of times, people actually like being defined by their suffering. That may sound odd, but I have seen something like this time and time again. The moment you tell people something like the FACT that others have it worse than they do, they shut down, maybe nod and smile - and I can read in their eyes a statement that "you don't really understand." And maybe I don't understand. I see my own suffering as a nothing, a trifle. Compared to what I know and have heard others have gone through, I have gone through nothing at all. It may be that I don't understand because I don't know when to label something I am going through "suffering." At what point does a thing become "suffering?" I don't know the answer, and so I just take on more and more, maybe evaluate from time to time, ask if I am suffering yet - but the answer always comes back: "no."

I remember our garage was burnt down by some arsonists, and a neighbor who was helping us clean up the wreckage commented that he admired the way I seemed to tirelessly take the trash cans of ash and junk to the top of the pile and dump them, when he himself was feeling beaten and tired out just dragging the cans along the ground. I stopped and thought about it for a moment... and wondered when exactly it was I was supposed to give in to feeling sore and tired and claiming that I was "beat." I don't really know when that is... and I like very much the fact that I do not. I think I am going to keep it that way.

 

[PureX]

If we are not changed by our suffering, and by witnessing the suffering of others, all that suffering has been wasted.

 

[whirlingmerc]

God made a world with no suffering, but this somewhat good but now sin broken 'echo of the original shout' that made it is now sin cursed.

God did it for a greater good in the end.

In part the world was made by through to and for the glory of God and Jesus and the restoration of it and showing mercy is part of that. Good world is now broken but that is not the end. Redemption in progress. Glory to come.

In part in the New Covenant because of the death and resurrection and risen life of Jesus nothing but good intentions of God are toward those reconciled to God through the Messiah. God will someday wipe every tear from the eyes of the redeemed.

Until then we call to Jesus as in Psalm 98 and 102 and sing of the victory that is here and not yet.

Joy to the earth! the Saviour reigns:
let men their songs employ
while fields and floods rocks hills and plains
repeat the sounding joy.

No more let sins and sorrows grow

nor thorns infest the ground:
he comes to make his blessings flow
far as the curse is found.

 

[nPeace]

I find it very difficult, if not impossible, to believe God is All-Loving given all the suffering in the world, especially given the fact that God designed this world so people would suffer, and some people suffer much more than others. Sure, the Baha'i belief is that those who suffer most will attain the most perfection, but one still has to suffer through this world to realize the benefits and they need an extraordinary amount of faith to believe there is something much better waiting for them in the afterlife. I cannot see any of this as just and fair, but who am I to criticize God or God's Method? Nobody.

Hi, again, Trailblazer. I'm just curious as to why you think "God designed this world so people would suffer".

 

[nPeace]

I fail to understand why an all-powerful being, who'd fail to keep child rapists away from hurting innocent children, should be considered as being highly benevolent.

The answer may lie in the first four words you wrote.
We may not understand because we are missing some facts.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Hi, again, Trailblazer. I'm just curious as to why you think "God designed this world so people would suffer".

God designed a world with no suffering, no pain and no death.

Sin entered the world as did death.

Romans 5:12-13
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
​

No pain in Christ is pointless there is a purpose to all of it

​

 

[nPeace]

If God intervened every time someone was about to get raped or murdered, etc., it would throw off the entire order in the world which is based upon free will, and evil people would become programmed robots. The solution is for evil people to follow the teachings and laws of the Messengers of God and if they did that there would be no evil in the world. So the way God demonstrates His benevolence is by sending those Messengers with teachings and laws.

I don't understand. Why would God make the world to suffer, and then send messengers to get people out of suffering?

 

[nPeace]

God designed a world with no suffering, no pain and no death.

Sin entered the world as did death.

Romans 5:12-13
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.​

So suffering entered the world through the disobedience of man. That is what the Bible says, and I agree.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I don't understand. Why would God make the world to suffer, and then send messengers to get people out of suffering?

I think there are a number of reasons
a few:

Showing God's justice against evil
Making God's love and mercy more clear
Man is elevated in the process from the creature made in God's image to the Bride of Christ in redemption​

 

[shmogie]

Hey there. You look troubled as if the weight of the world is upon your shoulders. Friend, do not be disheartened and know that when the chips are down and everyone abandons you, Jesus still loves you. He will carry the burden of your sins. For those who are oppressed Christ will ease your suffering. Do not be afraid or perturbed.

Many of us are familiar with such a narrative in Christianity where suffering has meaning and a remedy is offered to alleviate misery. How that kind of narrative resonates is the topic of this OP.

We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?

Do religions other than Christianity provide similar narrative or is the a substantial difference in perspective?

If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?

We humans always look at anything within the context of time. We do this whether we choose to, or not. Therefore present suffering and loss are major issues before our eyes, and will be till we die.

However, our experience in time is just the tiniest grain of sand on the smooth road of eternity, a smaller and smaller point.

Some look at the earth as it is, as we are, as all there is, and within that context, the ever present suffering and pain is an abhorrent indictment of God. A good God would eliminate it.

However, this earth and it's inhabitants and it's time are not a true reflection of reality, they are an anomaly within the universe.

In my opinion, I believe there are any number of beings in the Universe who are observing us, and the evil we create as an object lesson, God allows the evil of humanity to show those who have not chosen evil, the natural course of doing so.

Humanity has said to God, we will do things our way, you need not intrude. So He does't

When God finally ends the earth, and us, as we know the earth, and us, all will be remade, and we will no longer be held in the death grip of time and a world under the manic tyranny of humanity that is adrift in a terrible sea of it's own creation.

Those who inhabit this new eternal earth will no longer need to fear evil, or the flutter of the wings of the angel of death above their head as they sleep, or go about their happy life that will never end.

The Bible says that Christ will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and strongly implies that they will no longer remember the evil, the pain, the suffering.

In eternity, the time where evil stalked the earth will mean nothing except a tiny place, a tiny people in relation to the universe who were saved from their own folly by God.

 

[shmogie]

Every answer to this question falls into one of three categories:

- God wants to prevent suffering but can't do it.
- God could prevent suffering, but doesn't want to do it.
- God is both unable and unwilling to prevent suffering.


Yes, there's potentially tremendous harm. If you use promises of reward in Heaven to encourage people to be compliant and complacent, then they won't bother to do anything about the suffering or injustice they have to endure. This means that it will continue and that more people will have to endure it unnecessarily.


Look for ways to overcome it.

The fourth category is that it is allowed for for a much greater purpose that many do not grasp. This is the right one.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

1/ See the positives in peoples and not the negatives and love them for who they are.
2/ Positive encouragement to be of service, offer charity, participate and work in the community.
3/ Avoidance of alcohol and drugs.
4/ Encouragement to be a good husband and father.
5/ Learning the skills of consultation and collective decision making through community life
6/ Increased devotion to God through prayer, reading of sacred writings and chanting.
7/ Inner peace through meditation.
8/ Development of self-restraint through fasting
9/ Avoidance of backbiting and gossip.
10/ Being concerned not just for myself and immediate family and friends but also for my community.

That's a lot. A work in progress, I'm sure. I didn't know you are a father. That's a good source of "scripture" right there.

You know, going online is a good practice for anyone when it comes to a lot of those things. In person it takes longer to practice patience and awareness but online we can take a breather and shut the window. Maybe it's a great place to start when it comes to those type of practices.

Thanks for answerin'

 

[Etritonakin]

Hey there. You look troubled as if the weight of the world is upon your shoulders. Friend, do not be disheartened and know that when the chips are down and everyone abandons you, Jesus still loves you. He will carry the burden of your sins. For those who are oppressed Christ will ease your suffering. Do not be afraid or perturbed.

Many of us are familiar with such a narrative in Christianity where suffering has meaning and a remedy is offered to alleviate misery. How that kind of narrative resonates is the topic of this OP.

We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?

Do religions other than Christianity provide similar narrative or is the a substantial difference in perspective?

If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?

(a general outline of what the bible actually says on the matter)
The most difficult thing to accept is that yes... God knows what is happening to people -and, for the most part, does NOTHING -for now.
That is not to say he will never do anything.

1: It was necessary to create a future for billions of new 'gods' in which such things do NOT happen. The choice was similar to that of any parent -either to not reproduce, or accept all that is between newness and responsible adulthood -including dealing with children free to make choices and affect each other adversely or positively. Being the ultimate authority, however -and having ultimate power, he has both a greater responsibility (to literally make us perfect) and more options. 2: God knew from the beginning he could make it a non-issue -reverse all adverse effects and memory of it.

Some do great evil -but many who experience great evil are innocent. They are born into a reality where things are not as they should be.
They do not deserve it. Few would have an issue with evil happening to evildoers -but the greatest evil is that which happens to the innocent.

Some say that what is written in the bible equates to God saving us from himself -but it is actually God saving us from a lack of himself.

It is not an ego trip. God is literally math, logic, truth -every inescapable thing -personified. That is especially important to remember as things become extremely complicated.
We absolutely need God's government because of WHAT God is -just as much as WHO God is. He is also the original -so it is logical that he HAD to be perfect in order to move forward.
God worked more directly with beings in the past. He gave them all they needed, but they were new and could make decisions.
The only thing he could not give them instantaneously was personal experience.

The alternative to God is a reality we are incapable of managing -and experience of things going very wrong.
So... God allowed things to go very wrong -because many consistently chose it (because they did not fully realize what they were choosing yet) -and would continue to do so.
Not all rejected God, but God is responsible for making EVERYTHING and EVERYONE right -so the innocent are affected by the choices of the evil.
That is the reality of a shared environment.

Because guidance and instruction was consistently rejected, creating a future in which everyone is perfect and absolutely incorruptible REQUIRED experience of reality without God -for the most part -and also God purposing that we actually experience the LEAST amount of evil necessary OVERALL -in the shortest amount of time.
That includes every horrible and heartbreaking thing that should never happen. The only way for it to never happen is for people not to do it.
The only way for people not to do it is experience.
Does every individual innocent person need to experience everything they do?
No -but that is the point.

Each individual is given about 120 or less years -and man since Adam onward about 6,000 years (has nothing to do with age of Earth).
From Adam until the return of Christ, mankind OVERALL is living the reality that without God's government, things go horribly wrong until we destroy ourselves.
This point absolutely had to be made -but, more importantly, it had to be LIVED. Unless it was LIVED, there was room for doubt. IT HAD TO BE WRITTEN IN REALITY.
Talk changes little. Experience brings us to change ourselves -and acceptance of reality.
The harsh reality is that God is focusing on the OVERALL FIRST -because it is NECESSARY to create a perfect future FOR EVERY INDIVIDUAL.
From within this reality -and by being made strong by striving against it -God has called some to be "firstfruits" who will literally be the beginnings of a government under God -of Earth and beyond -which will be capable of keeping horrible things from happening -which has not been the case thus far. God -through Christ -will initially ENFORCE PEACE among the nations as that government ADMINISTERS PEACE.

Meanwhile...Not all chose to do evil. Not all rejected God. Many did wonderful things and had horrific things happen to them.
During this time, most suffering of individuals is not dealt with.
ONLY AFTERWARD WILL ALL SUFFERING OF ALL INDIVIDUALS BE NULLIFIED -HEALED -ERASED -DELETED FROM REALITY -FORGOTTEN.
GOD KNEW HE COULD DO THAT BEFORE HE STARTED.

God will vent his wrath -building as he worked out his purpose of making us gods -until it is gone. He will begin by drawing all nations (still 'in the game' at the time) to around Jerusalem (as he further purifies those Israelites there -who will experience a sustained attack by neighbors as larger warring forces advance toward there). Christ will return -in his glorious body (that which Moses saw the back parts of) -and "stand as in the day of battle" -forces gathered to war with each other and against Jerusalem will turn to fight him -but Christ and HIS army (his camp is very great [Joel 2]) will put down their forces in no uncertain terms -and will "destroy those who destroy the Earth".
He will then begin to reign on Earth -and rebuke nations afar off -who will beat their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks.
The last will be made first and the first last. The meek (which does not equate to weak) and innocent will govern -and evildoers will be separated and given an ultimatum... being essentially... stay here and suffer indefinitely, have this evil purified out of you -or die.

"God is equal" -it's just a matter of time.

"Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy."

 

[loverofhumanity]

With the gift of temporary life in this world goes things like old age, sickness and death as well as chance happenings which I don’t believe have anything to do with God. That’s the deal. Suffering on the other hand I believe only comes from this world not the spiritual world so if we live a spiritual life I believe we will mostly be content and happy.

But the human heart or spirit needs things like love, fellowship, friendship and unity and material things cannot satisfy these needs so in a materialistic world we see a lot of depression, suicide and unhappiness caused by lack of spiritual fulfillment.

This is where God I believe comes in. We make our choices of how we wish to lead our lives and pay the consequences for our choices. We make the bed we sleep in so to speak not God.

God has regularly sent Divine Teachers throughout history to offer us spiritual education so that we can be happy but if we refuse to incorporate these spiritual virtues and principles into our life then it is us not God to blame.

If we choose to be hateful , prejudiced and go to war then that suffering is our fault for God has always taught us in all religions to be at peace with one another.

God didn’t start the world wars we did. We brought about world poverty because we erected a system based not upon sharing but greed.

Our suffering mostly comes I believe, from wrong choices that go against our spiritual natures as we are primarily spiritual beings and if we don’t nourish our spirits with the proper food, like our bodies, it will become afflicted and diseased.

We choose our path in life not God. He offers us the way to be happy but it’s up to us to choose His ways. On the one hand humanity refuses the Divine Remedy for its ills proffered by God and then unjustly blames God for allowing us to suffer when in fact it was our refusal to take the medicine that exacerbated our illnesses.

Maybe when we choose to try God’s ways of love and peace towards all humanity then a lot of our suffering may be turned into joy. But until we do that I believe that we will continue to suffer by our own hands not God’s.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How about through following God's Messengers, God provides us as a means to overcome suffering?

I'm not sure where you're going with this, because it doesn't seem to have much to do with the question of why God doesn't prevent suffering.

For God to provide any means to overcome suffering, we're taking it as given that God either failed to prevent - or maybe deliberately caused - the suffering in the first place.

And then given all this, we can still ask questions about this response to suffering you're claiming. Since there is still suffering in the world, apparently God's approach of "relieve suffering by sending messengers" hasn't been entirely effective, so we can still ask why God didn't use a more effective approach, which leads us to the same three answers:

- God wanted to be more effective, but this was the best that he could do.
- God could have been more effective, but he chose not to be.
- God neither wants nor is capable of being more effective at relieving suffering.

Another way of looking at it: if we assume that God exists, then the fact that suffering exists means that either:

- the suffering is aligned with God's will, or
- the suffering is not aligned with God's will, but God is incapable of making his will fully realized.

All the various religious arguments around the issue of suffering are versions of one of those two things, combined with some sort of explanation for why the god of the person making the argument might have chosen that option.

From what you say, it sounds as if people who follow a theistic religion do so because of a future reward in the after life. That's not my personal experience but may be for others. Many people I know who follow a spiritual path do so because that path makes sense and they find it enables them to be better people.

No, I didn't say anything about why a person accepts a religion in the first place. I'm saying that once a person believes in the tenets of a religion - however they came to believe in them - they'll treat those tenets as true.

Sometimes those tenets include ideas like "God will ensure that justice is done in the end" and "suffering on Earth will earn you reward in Heaven."

However for some people, religion can be harmful especially if it leads to superstition, prejudice and estrangement with those who view the world differently. Sometimes religion can prevent a life saving medical intervention such as a blood transfusion.

That's an extreme case; religion can still be harmful when it's much less extreme.

Of course. There are ways to overcome adversity without following any religion or spiritual path. However there are practices in religion such as meditation that have proven health benefits.

Thanks for your post.

You didn't ask about meditation. You asked about "finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible." I take this as referring to the stories that say things like:

- don't worry about how you'll feed or clothe yourself, because God sees you and will provide for you.

- rejoice in suffering, because God will reward you for it in Heaven.

- obey every Earthly authority, becsuse they were all appointed by God.

- endure any injustice, because all injustices will be addressed on the day of judgement.

All of these stories depend on them being true for them not to be monstrous things to make people rely on.

 

[viole]

So God is malevolent and cruel?

No. Because then we would have to explain why He allows good to happen in the world, as well.

Ciao

- viole

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The fourth category is that it is allowed for for a much greater purpose that many do not grasp. This is the right one.

That's not a fourth category. That's an example of the second category ("God could prevent suffering, but doesn't want to do it"). You're just tacking on a claim about why God has taken that approach.

 

[Windwalker]

We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?

Do religions other than Christianity provide similar narrative or is the a substantial difference in perspective?

While I'm not going to speak for other religions, I will speak for myself in how I hold this question. I do tend to think there is a substantial difference in perspective. A more traditional theistic view of God immediately sets this question in motion. God is viewed as external to creation, and thus the questions of why would a God who is good and all-powerful allowing suffering. He's ostensibly in control, so bears some personal responsibility in the matter.

In a less radical dualistic view, as expressed above, where God and nature are not separated thusly, the question above no longer bears such an unresolvable dilemma. When viewed as a whole, that creation is essentially the body of God, and that God is equally in all things and all of us, then the questions of good and evil become different. Suffering begins to be recognized as self-originating. This is not say pain doesn't exist, but the anguish we inflict upon ourselves in the face of pain, is self-inflicted. God doesn't have a responsibility in that. We do.

While I find value in a theistic view, I've found a much greater grounding and cohesion with a pantheistic view. Yet there is also transcendence as well, and why I hold both provisionally in a panentheistic view.

If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?

We find God in many ways. If reading scriptures inspires that to rise within you, then that is an effective tool. But I see that as being much more than simply finding comfort in words that tell you don't worry, it'll be better later on. I see that very inspiration that arises with us, as that very immanence of God. God "saves" us, but us accessing God here and now, not in promises of joy tomorrow.