Who is Baháʼu'lláh?

[Dawnofhope]

LOL!
I Corinthians 15:

• 13 But if there is no resurrection of th'e dead, not even Christ has been raised;
• 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
• 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
  
• 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
• 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
• 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
• 19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

Paul never saw the resurrected Jesus. At least there is no record of it in the New Testament. Instead he was blinded on the road to Damascus several years after the alleged resurrection as recorded by the author of Luke in Acts of the Apostles 9:1-5. Of course this was well after appearances of Jesus culminating in His ascending to heaven many weeks after He rose from the dead (Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11).

Yet Paul claims to have seen the resurrected Jesus as the others in 1 Corinthians 15:6-9. By having seen the resurrected Jesus, Paul most likely refers to a mystical experience he has of Jesus 2 Corinthians 12:1-4.

The problems with a literal resurrection are many but it essentially relies on a cosmology where heaven is literally up in the sky and hell below the earth. Maybe you really believe that but the last time I consulted scientific texts there was no such heaven to be found in outer space.

Your "Jesus", whether he is Baha'i's "Jesus" or just yours is as unrecognizable to me as Islam's Jesus. And your "theology", and/or Baha'i's theology is, a "replacement theology," as is Islam's. I say: replacement theologies come and go, like dandelion seeds in the wind.

You can certainly say that about the Baha’i Faith and time will us where the Baha’i Faith is in a couple of hundred years. Islam on the other hand is no dandelion and set to become the largest religion on the planet in 50 years.

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group

 

[loverofhumanity]

Welcome to the forum. Neuropteron.

We Baha’is believe there is only one God. We also believe in the same God of the Christians and the Jews and do not accept any religions that worship Satan or evil or things like that.

Baha’u’llah was a descendant of Abraham through His wife Katurah and also a descendant of David through His father Jesse.

We Baha’is also ‘believe’ that Baha’u’llah- meaning the Glory of God’ was foretold by Jesus and in the Old Testament and in the Holy Books of other major religions.

We Baha’is ‘believe’ Him to be the Promised return of Jesus in the Glory of the Father that Christians have been awaiting. Other religions also foretell a Promised One. We Baha’is ‘believe’ these all are referring to the same Person, Baha’u’llah.

When Baha’u’llah made His announcement in Baghdad that He was the Promised One, He was exiled and imprisoned for 40 years eventually to Israel. There are prophecies in Micah ‘we Baha’is believe’ that refer to His exile.

Baha’u’llah wrote Tablets to the Kings and religious leaders of the world including Pope Pius IX regarding His claims to be the Messiah and that He came to establish the Kingdom of God.

Baha’is are from all nationalities, religions and races who have put aside their prejudices to work for the unity of humanity.

I hope you find this brief post about Who is Baha’u’llah helpful to you.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Peruse:

• Manifestation of God - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith
• Progressive revelation - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

Thank you very much for being fair and just in the links you provided.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Paul never saw the resurrected Jesus.

We already know that you and I have irreconcilable differences and now you say things that call for a Bible study together? Okay, ...

• Jesus' Crucifixion, before 34 CE
  • Why before 34 CE? The martyrdom of Stephen is estimated to have been c. 34 CE.
    • Stephen, one of seven Greek-speaking, Hellenistic, Christian Jews chosen to be a deacon in charge of food distribution to Greek-speaking, Christian widows, who was stoned to death on charges of disrespectful speech against Moses and God.
      
    • Acts 7:58 "... Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul."
    • Acts 8:1 "On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.
      
    • Acts 8:2 Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him.
      
    • Acts 8:3 But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison."
• Saul's Conversion, c. 36 CE.
  • Acts 9:1 "Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest
    
  • Acts 9:2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.
  • Acts 9:3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him.
  • Acts 9:4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
  • Acts 9:5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied.
  • Acts 9:6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
  • Acts 9:7 "The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.
  • Acts 9:8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus.
  • Acts 9:9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything."
• My conclusion: Whether you believe it or not, Paul may not have "seen" the resurrected Jesus that Jesus' followers saw before Jesus' ascension, but Paul certainly believed that he met and was addressed by Jesus after Jesus' ascension, sometime around 36 CE, give or take a few years.

Of course this was well after appearances of Jesus culminating in His ascending to heaven

By a couple of weeks at least, don't ya think?

Yet Paul claims to have seen the resurrected Jesus as the others in 1 Corinthians 15:6-9.

Let's see what the verses you cite say.

• 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ ...
  
• 5 and that He appeared to Cephas,
• then to the twelve.
• 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
• 7 then He appeared to James,
• then to all the apostles;
• 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

So, according to Paul, who surely heard stories of Jesus' post-resurrection, pre-ascension appearances from more than one principal witness, Jesus appeared to more than 500 witnesses, and then, a considerable amount of time later, AFTER Jesus' ascension, Jesus appeared to Paul. Note that Paul does not claim to have "seen Jesus" face-to-face as Jesus appeared to the others before His ascension. Paul says that the post-ascension Jesus appeared to him. Whether or not Jesus appeared to Paul is a "faith matter". One either believes Paul or does not.

By having seen the resurrected Jesus, Paul most likely refers to a mystical experience he has of Jesus 2 Corinthians 12:1-4.

Let's see what the verses you cite say.

• 1 Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
• 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
• 3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—
• 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Does Paul say, clearly and unambiguously, that he is speaking of himself? Some say "yes"; some say "no"; but let's go with your apparent opinion: that he was speaking of himself. So, what if he was speaking of himself and was saying that he experienced something that would evoke derision from many, if not most, folks here in RF.

• When does he say it happened? Fourteen years before 2 Corinthians was written.
• I haven't made an exhaustive search for the "best estimated date" of this letter, but I did see a range: i.e. from 52-57 CE, with some apparent consensus that it was written in the mid-50s CE, (55/56 CE). Let's say it was written about 55 CE. That would place the author's "trip" to "the third heaven" somewhere around: 55 - 14 years = 41 CE, several years AFTER Paul's first encounter with the post-ascension Jesus.
• Summary: Paul had two experiences: (1) the first when he was knocked off his horse and (2) the second, some years later, in which he was "caught up into Paradise". To which experience was he referring, in 1 Corinthians? IMO, the first; although I'd be open to hear a better argument for the second experience. But in either case, the two were certainly not one and the same experience.

The problems with a literal resurrection are many but it essentially relies on a cosmology where heaven is literally up in the sky and hell below the earth.

That's the best "problem" you could pick out of the many problems there are with a literal resurrection?

• Have you run that one by the Muslims?
  • Qur'an 6:110 "When Allah will say, “O Jesus son of Mary, recall My favor upon you and upon your mother, how I supported you with the Holy Spirit. You spoke to the people from the crib, and in maturity. How I taught you the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel. And recall that you molded from clay the shape of a bird, by My leave, and then
    you breathed into it, and it became a bird, by My leave. And you healed the blind and the leprous, by My leave; and you revived the dead, by My leave.
  • And I believe the Qur'an also mentions "the Day of Resurrection" frequently. I'm sure that they'll be disappointed to hear that the Baha'i don't believe in a literal resurrection.
• I would have thought that the biggest problem that the Baha'i have with Jesus' "literal resurrection" is that that would seem to place Jesus in heaven at the same time that Baha'u'llah is on earth unless, of course, the Baha'i believe that Jesus was reincarnated as Baha'u'llah, in which case it seems to me that the Baha'i must believe that Jesus, like some kind of quantum particle, can pop into existence any place at any time.

Maybe you really believe that but the last time I consulted scientific texts there was no such heaven to be found in outer space.

Hmmm, ... you're apparently not aware of my cosmology. I'll spare you the details, but briefly, IMO, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

 

[Dawnofhope]

We already know that you and I have irreconcilable differences and now you say things that call for a Bible study together? Okay, ...

The resurrection of Christ is certainly a major irreconcilable difference for you. Its simply a difference of opinion as far as I’m concerned. No big deal. I was reading and reflecting about how many Christians see the belief in a literal resurrection as being foundational and essential. There are increasing numbers of theologians who believe the resurrection is symbolic and not literal at all. It must be really difficult for them as they have conservative Christians telling them they are not really Christians at all and seeing them as heretics.

Not All Christians Believe in the Resurrection of Christ?

Of course the ordinary man on the street has little interest in theology. In the UK a recent survey found a quarter of those who identify as Christian don’t believe in the resurrection.

Resurrection beliefs laid bare in poll

What’s happening in my country, New Zealand is people are losing their faith in Christianity. Our recent census last year 2018 showed the percentage of NZers who identify as Christian as declined from 48% in 2013 to just 37% in 2018. OTOH the number of those who identify with no religion has risen from 42% in 2013 to 49% in 2018.

'No religion' officially overtakes Christianity in New Zealand Census stats

Christianity has fallen into disrepute in New Zealand. If politicians start talking about their religion its political suicide. Christianity in the USA is obviously something your politicians like to talk a lot about. The USA and its evangelical Christians? I don’t know Terry but I’ll have to bite my tongue.

So in discussing the resurrection we do need to refer to the New Testament as there’s no evidence elsewhere that such a dramatic event took place. You would think so many having witnessed the resurrection it would have made the news. Unfortunately there isn’t one historian that refers to this event. No historians apart from the Gospel writers of course. But were they really historians?

My conclusion: Whether you believe it or not, Paul may not have "seen" the resurrected Jesus that Jesus' followers saw before Jesus' ascension, but Paul certainly believed that he met and was addressed by Jesus after Jesus' ascension, sometime around 36 CE, give or take a few years.

So we’re agreed Paul believed he met Jesus well after the ascension. I suppose as Jesus is literally God incarnate He could have descended from heaven again and talked to Paul. Either no one noticed or perhaps with all the appearances before the first ascension the Christians become so accustomed to Christ dropping out of the sky no one thought it worth documenting.

So, according to Paul, who surely heard stories of Jesus' post-resurrection, pre-ascension appearances from more than one principal witness, Jesus appeared to more than 500 witnesses, and then, a considerable amount of time later, AFTER Jesus' ascension, Jesus appeared to Paul. Note that Paul does not claim to have "seen Jesus" face-to-face as Jesus appeared to the others before His ascension. Paul says that the post-ascension Jesus appeared to him. Whether or not Jesus appeared to Paul is a "faith matter". One either believes Paul or does not.

I wonder if Paul tends to speak metaphorically rather than literally. Let’s consider the phrase ‘body of Christ’ which should obviously mean the physical body of Christ but when Paul’s writings are analysed really means the Church.

How is the church the Body of Christ? | GotQuestions.org

Let's see what the verses you cite say.

• 1 Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
• 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
• 3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—
• 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Does Paul say, clearly and unambiguously, that he is speaking of himself? Some say "yes"; some say "no"; but let's go with your apparent opinion: that he was speaking of himself. So, what if he was speaking of himself and was saying that he experienced something that would evoke derision from many, if not most, folks here in RF.

When does he say it happened? Fourteen years before 2 Corinthians was written.

I haven't made an exhaustive search for the "best estimated date" of this letter, but I did see a range: i.e. from 52-57 CE, with some apparent consensus that it was written in the mid-50s CE, (55/56 CE). Let's say it was written about 55 CE. That would place the author's "trip" to "the third heaven" somewhere around: 55 - 14 years = 41 CE, several years AFTER Paul's first encounter with the post-ascension Jesus.

Summary: Paul had two experiences: (1) the first when he was knocked off his horse and (2) the second, some years later, in which he was "caught up into Paradise". To which experience was he referring, in 1 Corinthians? IMO, the first; although I'd be open to hear a better argument for the second experience. But in either case, the two were certainly not one and the same experience.

I’m not sure why all this matters. Paul clearly had a profound experience with ‘the resurrected Jesus’ and whether it was once or a whole series of events. The point is it doesn’t need to have been literal and the whole story makes sense if it wasn’t.

That's the best "problem" you could pick out of the many problems there are with a literal resurrection?

Mate, I’m not really trying to convince you that Jesus didn’t literally rise from the dead and ascend to heaven because its an essential part of your belief. You can’t be the Christian you are without it.

Have you run that one by the Muslims?

• Qur'an 6:110 "When Allah will say, “O Jesus son of Mary, recall My favor upon you and upon your mother, how I supported you with the Holy Spirit. You spoke to the people from the crib, and in maturity. How I taught you the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel. And recall that you molded from clay the shape of a bird, by My leave, and then
  you breathed into it, and it became a bird, by My leave. And you healed the blind and the leprous, by My leave; and you revived the dead, by My leave.
• And I believe the Qur'an also mentions "the Day of Resurrection" frequently. I'm sure that they'll be disappointed to hear that the Baha'i don't believe in a literal resurrection.

So are you saying the Muslims and Christians believe in the same resurrection as each other but not the same God? At least we can have some seriously colourful and apocalyptic art work with a literal day of resurrection. The Baha’is have a book that records our take on this historic event.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation

An estimated 20,000 of the early Baha’is put to death was certainly an apocalypse. Bahá’u’lláh explains the phrase ‘day of resurrection’ quite nicely in the Kitab-I-Iqan.

I would have thought that the biggest problem that the Baha'i have with Jesus' "literal resurrection" is that that would seem to place Jesus in heaven at the same time that Baha'u'llah is on earth unless, of course, the Baha'i believe that Jesus was reincarnated as Baha'u'llah, in which case it seems to me that the Baha'i must believe that Jesus, like some kind of quantum particle, can pop into existence any place at any time.

That’s quite a lot of contortions going on to make that one fit. Baha’is are just ordinary people.

Christ means Messiah and so its simply through the Christ God Revealed Himself. Moses with the Torah, Christ the Gospels, Muhammad the Quran and Bahá’u’lláh with His substantial body of Writings.

The only example of a returned Prophet in the New Testament is John the Baptist being Elijah. But that wasn’t literal so no need for a reincarnation or for Elijah to descend from heaven.

Was John the Baptist really Elijah reincarnated? | GotQuestions.org

Hmmm, ... you're apparently not aware of my cosmology. I'll spare you the details, but briefly, IMO, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Hey, just because God can perform any miracles, doesn’t mean to say that he has. Just because you or I imagine something to be true doesn’t make it so.

Thanks for the Bible lesson.

 

[oldbadger]

Bottom line is anyone can say whatever they wish, but that doesn't make it true.

That's how some of us view Bahauallah's words

 

[Terry Sampson]

• First.

  • By having seen the resurrected Jesus, Paul most likely refers to a mystical experience he has of Jesus 2 Corinthians 12:1-4.

  • Summary: Paul had two experiences: (1) the first when he was knocked off his horse and (2) the second, some years later, in which he was "caught up into Paradise". To which experience was he referring, in 1 Corinthians? IMO, the first; although I'd be open to hear a better argument for the second experience. But in either case, the two were certainly not one and the same experience.

  • I’m not sure why all this matters. Paul clearly had a profound experience with ‘the resurrected Jesus’ and whether it was once or a whole series of events. The point is it doesn’t need to have been literal and the whole story makes sense if it wasn’t.

  • I wouldn't have brought up the issue of "one experience" vs. "two experiences" and "if two, to which does Paul refer?" if you hadn't said: "Paul most likely refers to a mystical experience he has of Jesus 2 Corinthians 12:1-4". I figured that, since all we're doing is casting votes for opinions, I'd cast my vote for an opinion that doesn't match yours. But I do see now, or rather 'think I see' your point: What do details matter, if they are all just details in metaphors, allegories, parables, and folktales and we can make sense of all of it without worrying about the literality of any of it and use the sense that we've made to do something more constructive than destructive? If that is your point, then it's an interesting point.
  • Assuming that I've correctly (or almost correctly) understood your point, how far do you think the Baha'i dream of unifying all mankind is going to get when folks realize what Baha'i wants them to give up? And don't you think that somebody along the way is going to suggest that the Baha'i give up their belief in non-literal Manifestations of God, that Baha'u'llah fulfilled non-literal prophecies, and the Maid of Heaven, all in the interest of "unity". [Ahhh, ... fare thee well, Maid of Heaven. Will you give me a kiss before you go?]

The resurrection of Christ is certainly a major irreconcilable difference for you. Its simply a difference of opinion as far as I’m concerned. No big deal.

The resurrection of Jesus only seems to be a major irreconcilable difference for me in your opinion because it's an issue that some folks here in RF, including you, have brought up, and that
i have not shied away from responding to. Actually, it's really not as big a deal to me as my several posts on the matter may make it seem. Einstein's Relativity is a much bigger deal to me.

There are increasing numbers of theologians who believe the resurrection is symbolic and not literal at all. It must be really difficult for them as they have conservative Christians telling them they are not really Christians at all and seeing them as heretics.

Difficult for them? Ha! If they've been earning a living teaching that the resurrection is symbolic, they should be grateful for the added prestige that being deemed heretics gives them. It gives them a larger audience among those folks who like to "cite authoritative sources" when spouting heresy. I just wish I could be so lucky in making a living by affirming my Anti-relativitistic opinions.

In the UK a recent survey found a quarter of those who identify as Christian don’t believe in the resurrection.

Is that all? I'm surprised. My father was a Lutheran preacher for roughly 60 years and believed in the resurrection of Jesus from his conversion to Christianity at the age of 13 until his death. Of his 15 grandchildren, I'd be surprised if more than 4 still believe in it.

I'm reminded of a story I read several years ago.

• [from CHRISTIAN MARTYRDOM: A GLOBAL DEMOGRAPHIC ASSESSMENT, Todd M. Johnson ([email protected]), Notre Dame, November 2012]
  • David Barrett pioneered the quantitative study of martyrdom. He died last year at age 83. Barrett told me the story of when he was invited to speak to a group of wealthy industrialists. They asked him what the most effective means of evangelism was so that they could invest their money to hurry up the evangelization of the world. He responded, “We have been engaged in in-depth research on this subject, and we think the most effective means might be Christian martyrdom.” There was an awkward silence until one industrialist screwed up the courage and asked, “Dr. Barrett, could you tell us the second most effective means of evangelism?”
• I suspect that persecution and martyrdom are significant factors in the spread of any religion, and possibly in any social "movement". What prestige is there in a religion that has never experienced persecution or martyrdom.

I suppose as Jesus is literally God incarnate He could have descended from heaven again and talked to Paul. Either no one noticed or perhaps with all the appearances before the first ascension the Christians become so accustomed to Christ dropping out of the sky no one thought it worth documenting.

Bummer, ain't it. I've been suggesting to Him that He needs to update/upgrade His public relations strategy, maybe add a twitter-account, a blog, and/or a YouTube channel.

Mate, I’m not really trying to convince you that Jesus didn’t literally rise from the dead and ascend to heaven

I didn't think you were trying to. I was saying: If you think there are many reasons not to take Jesus' resurrection literally, it seems to me that you'd either try to dazzle me with their multiplicity or a more exciting cosmology than "Heaven - Up", "Hell - Below". Something, perhaps, like what I've suggested before elsewhere: "There is only one infinite, eternal Heaven that is Hell for those who don't want to be there."

I wonder if Paul tends to speak metaphorically rather than literally. Let’s consider the phrase ‘body of Christ’ which should obviously mean the physical body of Christ but when Paul’s writings are analysed really means the Church.

"Should obviously?" What? All scriptures, including Baha'i's are either 100% literal or 100% metaphorical? or Paul's such an idiot that he can't tell when he's speaking literally or metaphorically? That's an odd notion, IMO, but let's go with it. Let's suppose that he was actually speaking of a metaphorical resurrected Jesus. Do you also propose that we rephrase Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15:13-19 as follows?

• 13 If there is no metaphorical resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised metaphorically. 14 And if Christ has not been raised metaphorically, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be metaphorical false witnesses about a metaphorical God, for we have testified about God that He metaphorically raised Christ from the dead. But He did not raise him metaphorically if in fact the dead are not raised metaphorically. ... 19 If only for this life we have hope in a metaphorical Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

Did I miss a "metaphorical" or "metaphorically"?

So are you saying the Muslims and Christians believe in the same resurrection as each other but not the same God?

No, what I'm saying is that, according to the Qur'an, Allah himself said Jesus "revived a dead person" (by Allah's permission) and Allah himself spoke of "a Day of Resurrection", but your position has been that "resurrections" are to be taken metaphorically. And I'm wondering when you're going to break the news to the Muslims that the author of the Qur'an was just putting metaphorical words in Allah's mouth.

Baha’is are just ordinary people.

Can I quote you?

 

[Trailblazer]

That's how some of us view Bahauallah's words

But your views do not make anything true. That was my point.
Nobody's views make anything true or false. Reality is whatever it is.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Maid of Heaven, all in the interest of "unity". [Ahhh, ... fare thee well, Maid of Heaven. Will you give me a kiss before you go?]

Moses was the Burning Bush, Jesus was the Dove, Muhammad the Angel Gabriel, the Bab was the severed head of Imam Husayn and Baha'u'llah the Maid of Heaven.

There is great meaning in that Metephor and why would one even consider removing it from the 'Word of God'.

Let the dead bury the dead.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

But your views do not make anything true. That was my point.
Nobody's views make anything true or false. Reality is whatever it is.

Most Bahai claims have not supported reality.
The rubbish that I have heard and once believed, from the claims about Bahai genocides in Iran in recent decades to how Bahais advise the United Nations (!!), to how Bahai is a bringer of Equality to mankind, etc etc...... the list is endless, all shown to be misinformation.

Very Bad, imo.

 

[oldbadger]

Moses was the Burning Bush, Jesus was the Dove, Muhammad the Angel Gabriel, the Bab was the severed head of Imam Husayn and Baha'u'llah the Maid of Heaven.

There is great meaning in that Metephor and why would one even consider removing it from the 'Word of God'.

Not the word of God, Tony.

Yeshua BarYosef and all his close disciples were hardened, tough campaigners, ready to pick up and carry the Baptist's mission forward, and they were prepared for trouble. You write about Jesus as if he was a soft hearted delicate peace-bringer. 0/10

Let the dead bury the dead.

Regards Tony

Making quotes which you would never follow in life is how to spot pointless rhetoric, Tony.

 

[Trailblazer]

Most Bahai claims have not supported reality.

Reality has nothing to do with any Baha'i claims.
God determines what reality is. Everything else is an illusion.
God either spoke to Baha'u'llah or not. That is a true/false statement.
What Baha'is say or do has no bearing on that reality.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not all of the dead are dead.

All the physically dead are dead but they are not really dead because they could be spiritually alive in heaven, if they played their cards right.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Where did Jesus ever talk about rising from the grave? Being born of the spirit has nothing to do with the body. It means spiritual rebirth, exactly the same thing that Baha’u’llah wrote about:

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

 

[oldbadger]

Reality has nothing to do with any Baha'i claims.

At last! Some Bahai truth.

You got that right.

 

[Trailblazer]

At last! Some Bahai truth.

You got that right.

Or any anti-Baha'i claims.
Claims are just claims unless they have actual proof to support them.

 

[oldbadger]

Or any anti-Baha'i claims.
Claims are just claims unless they have actual proof to support them.

Good.
Sadly, Bahauallah's claims, that he is a manifestation of God etc, are not proven. Bahauallah was of a rich and influential family with connections to Russian diplomats, a combination which probably kept him alive and in comfort despite being an apostate of Shia Islam.

We can show that he often discarded his own tenets for his own benefit.

Enough

 

[Trailblazer]

Good.
Sadly, Bahauallah's claims, that he is a manifestation of God etc, are not proven

Neither are the claims of Jesus provable. Nobody can ever prove they are a Manifestation of God.

Bahauallah was of a rich and influential family with connections to Russian diplomats, a combination which probably kept him alive and in comfort despite being an apostate of Shia Islam.

Can you prove that?

We can show that he often discarded his own tenets for his own benefit.

Show it then.

 

[oldbadger]

Neither are the claims of Jesus provable. Nobody can ever prove they are a Manifestation of God.

I don't think Jesus made any claims. Christians manipulated those claims in to the gospels. Yeshua BarYosef just picked up the Baptist's mission and tried to keep it going.

Can you prove that?

Show it then.

One step at a time. Let's take my sentence:-
We can show that he often discarded his own tenets for his own benefit.

You must do some work on this too.....
1. What was Bahauallah's rule about men's and women's haircuts?
2. What was Bahauallah's rule about the number of wives allowed?

Let's start there.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think Jesus made any claims. Christians manipulated those claims in to the gospels. Yeshua BarYosef just picked up the Baptist's mission and tried to keep it going.

So now all he claims Jesus made in the Gospels are just as bogus as Baha'u'llah's claims?
Sounds like conspiracy theories to be.

One step at a time. Let's take my sentence:-
We can show that he often discarded his own tenets for his own benefit.

You must do some work on this too.....
1. What was Bahauallah's rule about men's and women's haircuts?
2. What was Bahauallah's rule about the number of wives allowed?

Let's start there.

What does any of that have to do with discarding His own tenets for His own benefit?

 

[oldbadger]

So now all he claims Jesus made in the Gospels are just as bogus as Baha'u'llah's claims?
Sounds like conspiracy theories to be.

Jesus never made any claims, Trailblazer.
Show me one, and let's take it from there.

What does any of that have to do with discarding His own tenets for His own benefit?

You did not show those rules, Trailblazer. If you would kindly show Bahauallah's hair-cut rules and his a rules about number of wives we can move forward. A little effort from you is required.

Now..... haircut rules. Number of wives rules.
OK?