Kitab-i-Iqan was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d. Was it?

[paarsurrey]

Kitab-i-Iqan was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d. Was it?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said: ↑
Quote, "Every Writing by the Bab and Baha'u'llah were revealed from God, just as the Quran. The difference in this day is that the Messengers wrote a lot of it with their own hands."Unquote

Friend! I know that is one's belief, but now one has to prove it to help us understand one's belief with reason or, is it one acknowledgement that one's belief is in blindfaith, please?
The above sentence colored in magenta is one's conjecture in general which entails that the whole book of Iqan is Direct Converse of/from G-d with Bahaullah. So we need these claims from within the main text of Iqan (Farsi or English) in an unequivocal and straightforward manner that:

1. the whole Iqan is Direct Converse of/from G-d with Bahaullah.
2. Iqan is not authored by Bahaullah.
3. and the natural words in the main text of Iqan demonstrate to that effect.

Right, please?

We now take verses 41-45 of Iqan :

41
باری، اين است مقصود از تلويحات کلمات مظاهر الهی. پس اطلاق شمس و قمر در اين مراتب بر اين مقامات مذکوره به آيات نازله و اخبار وارده محقّق و ثابت شد. اين است که مقصود از ذکر تاريکی شمس و قمر و سقوط انجم، ضلالت علماء و نسخ شدن احکام مرتفعه در شريعت است که مظهر آن ظهور به اين تلويحات اخبار می دهد. و جز ابرار را از اين کأس نصيبی نيست و جز اخيار را قسمتی نه. "إنَّ الاَبرَارَ يَشرَبُونَ مِن کأسٍ کَانَ مِزَاجُها کافُوراً
42
و اين مسلّم است که در هر ظهور بعد، شمس علوم و احکام و اوامر و نواهی که در ظهور قبل مرتفع شده و اهل آن عصر در ظلّ آن شمس و قمر معارف و اوامر منوّر و مهتدی می شدند تاريک می شود، يعنی حکمش و اثرش تمام می گردد. و حال ملاحظه فرمائيد که اگر امّت انجيل مقصود از شمس و قمر را ادراک می نمودند و يا از مظهر علم الهی مستفسر می شدند بدون اعتراض و لجاج، البتّه معانی آن واضح می گشت و اين گونه در ظلمت نفس و هوی مبتلا و گرفتار نمی شدند. بلی، چون علم را از مبدأ و معدنش اخذ ننمودند لهذا در وادی مهلک کفر و ضلالت به هلاکت رسيده‏اند و هنوز مُشعر نشده‏اند که علامات کلّ ظاهر
شد و شمس موعود از افق ظهور اشراق نمود و شمس و قمر علوم و احکام و معارف قبل تاريک شد و غروب نمود
43
حال به چشم علم اليقين و جناحَی عين اليقين به صراط حقّ اليقين قدم گذار، "قل اللّهُ ثُمَّ ذَرهُم فِی خَوضهِم يَلعَبُونَ"
تا از اصحابی محسوب شوی که می فرمايد: "إنَّ الَّذينَ قَالُوا رَبُّنَااللّهُ ثُمَّ اسْتَقَامُوا تَتَنَزَّلُ عَلَيهِمُ المَلائِکَةُ
تا جميع اين اسرار را به بَصَر خود مشاهده فرمائی
44
ای برادر من، قدم روح بردار تا باديه های بعيده بُعد و هجر را به آنی طيّ فرمائی و در رضوان قرب و وصل در آئی و در نَفَسی به انفس الهيّه فائز شوی. و به قدم جسد هرگز اين مراحل طيّ نشود و مقصود حاصل نيايد. والسَّلامُ عَلَی مَنِ اتَّبَعَ الحَقَّ بِالحقِّ وَ کانَ عَلی صِراطِ الاَمرِ فيِ شاطئِ العرفانِ بِاسمِ اللّه موقُوفاً
45
اين است معنی آيه مبارکه که می فرمايد: "فَلا اُقسِمُ بِرَبِّ المَشارِقِ و المَغَارِب
زيرا که از برای هر شمسی از اين شموس مذکوره محلّ اشراق و غروب است. و چون علمای تفسير بر حقيقت اين شمس های مذکوره اطّلاع نيافتند لهذا در تفسير اين آيه مبارکه معطّل شدند. و بعضی ذکر نمودند که چون آفتاب در هر روز از نقطه ای طلوع می نمايد غير از نقطه يوم قبل لهذا به
لفظ جمع ذکر فرموده. و بعضی ديگر نوشته‏اند که مقصود فصول اربعه است که در هر فصلی چون شمس از محلّی طالع می شود و به محلّی غروب می نمايد لهذا مشارق و مغارب ذکر شده. اين است مراتب علم عباد. و با وجود اين به جواهر علم و لطائف حکمت چه جهل ها و عيوب ها که نسبت می دهند
مرجع كتب وآثار بهائی - کتاب ايقان٬ صفحه ١٥-٣٠

Now its English Translation, please:
(Continued in the next post #142)

 

[paarsurrey]

(Continued from post #141)
Now its English Translation, please:

41
This is the purpose underlying the symbolic words of the Manifestations of God. Consequently, the application of the terms “sun” and “moon” to the things already mentioned hath been demonstrated and justified by the text of the sacred verses and the recorded traditions. Hence, it is clear and manifest that by the words “the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven” is intended the waywardness of the divines, and the annulment of laws firmly established by divine Revelation, all of which, in symbolic language, have been foreshadowed by the Manifestation of God. None except the righteous shall partake of this cup, none but the godly can share therein. “The righteous shall drink of a cup tempered at the camphor fountain.”26
42
It is unquestionable that in every succeeding Revelation the “sun” and “moon” of the teachings, laws, commandments, and prohibitions which have been established in the preceding Dispensation, and which have overshadowed the people of that age, become darkened, that is, are exhausted, and cease to exert their influence. Consider now, had the people of the Gospel recognized the meaning of the symbolic terms “sun” and “moon,” had they sought, unlike the froward and perverse, enlightenment from Him Who is the Revealer of divine knowledge, they would have surely comprehended the purpose of these terms, and would not have become afflicted and oppressed by the darkness of their selfish desires. Yea, but since they have failed to acquire true knowledge from its very Source, they have perished in the perilous vale of waywardness and misbelief. They still have not awakened to perceive that all the signs foretold have been made manifest, that the promised Sun hath risen above the horizon of divine Revelation, and that the “sun” and “moon” of the teachings, the laws, and learning of a former Dispensation have darkened and set.
43
And now, with fixed gaze and steady wings enter thou the way of certitude and truth. “Say: It is God; then leave them to entertain themselves with their cavilings.”27 Thus, wilt thou be accounted of those companions of whom He saith: “They that say ‘Our Lord is God,’ and continue steadfast in His way, upon them, verily, shall the angels descend.”28 Then shalt thou witness all these mysteries with thine own eyes.
44
O my brother! Take thou the step of the spirit, so that, swift as the twinkling of an eye, thou mayest flash through the wilds of remoteness and bereavement, attain the Riḍván of everlasting reunion, and in one breath commune with the heavenly Spirits. For with human feet thou canst never hope to traverse these immeasurable distances, nor attain thy goal. Peace be upon him whom the light of truth guideth unto all truth, and who, in the name of God, standeth in the path of His Cause, upon the shore of true understanding.
45
This is the meaning of the sacred verse: “But nay! I swear by the Lord of the Easts and the Wests,”29 inasmuch as the “Suns” referred to have each their own particular rising and setting place. And as the commentators of the Qur’án have failed to grasp the symbolic meaning of these “Suns,” they therefore were at pains to interpret the above-quoted verse. Some of them maintained that owing to the fact that the sun each day rises from a different point, the terms “easts” and “wests” have been mentioned in the plural. Others have written that by this verse the four seasons of the year are intended, inasmuch as the dawning and setting points of the sun vary with the change of the seasons. Such is the depth of their understanding! Nonetheless, they persist in imputing error and folly to those Gems of knowledge, those irreproachable and purest Symbols of wisdom.



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26. Qur’án 76:5. ↩
27. Qur’án 6:91. ↩
28. Qur’án 41:30. ↩
29. Qur’án 70:40. ↩
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Is there any natural word/s in the text of the above verses that indicates that these verses are a Direct Verse from/by G-d addressed to Bahaullah, please?
On the same lines that I have adopted for Quran in my post #281, please . Right, please?
If one is not easy with Farsi Iqan to highlight one could highlight in the English translation, no harm, please.

Anybody, please.

Regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

Adrian. You have completely ignored the whole context of what was said in the comment you replied to. Completely.

I recall when we initially talked about the Baha’i Faith in reference to the Kitab-i-Aqdas you seemed unable to produce a simply cut and paste of the English translation that is readily available for anyone. It appeared a prolonged and frustrating discussion for us both that was eventually abandoned at your request. You would continually accuse me of misunderstanding you, missing the point or going off on an irrelevant tangent as you have suggested here. If we cannot have a meaningful discussion about the vast body of the Baha’i writings that have been translated into English, how can we talk about the works that are yet to be translated?

I hear the argument being presented. There are these works from the Baha’i Writings that are ‘unsavoury’ and the governing body of the Baha’i Faith do not want these translated into English. Some of those translations are of course readily available on the official Baha’i website in Persian or Arabic. The solution is simple. Find a Baha’i fluent in these languages. Unfortunately there are none currently active on this forum.

 

[Muffled]

Baha'is consider Baha'u'llah's wrings including the Kitab-i-Iqan as Divine Revelation just as the Quran is both Divine Revelation and the Words Spoken by Muhammad. Obviously someone who rejects either Muhammad and/or Baha'u'llah as being a Prophet/Messenger of God will have a different opinion and see human origins only.

Baha'u'llah's works need to be considered as a whole and in light of the authoritative interpretations and elaborations provided by Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. We also need to consider the Bab's Revelation and the authority of the Universal House of Justice to resolve and clarify difficulties. So it would be a mistake to read the Kitab-i-Iqan is isolation.

We've had this conversation before.

I believe a persons consideration is no better than an opinion and I have seen some very messed up opinions on RF.

I don't believe you can use other writings as proof of this one.

I have read the Qur'an and there is sufficient evidence for me to accept it as the word of God. As for it coming from Muhammad, I accept his accreditation from those who wrote the history of it since that is the only source.

I do not believe he is a messenger of God and have seen no evidence of it. The words in his writings that I have seen so far are the words of a religious philosopher and not always correct and we know God does not make mistakes.

 

[firedragon]

I recall when we initially talked about the Baha’i Faith in reference to the Kitab-i-Aqdas you seemed unable to produce a simply cut and paste of the English translation that is readily available for anyone. It appeared a prolonged and frustrating discussion for us both that was eventually abandoned at your request. You would continually accuse me of misunderstanding you, missing the point or going off on an irrelevant tangent as you have suggested here. If we cannot have a meaningful discussion about the vast body of the Baha’i writings that have been translated into English, how can we talk about the works that are yet to be translated?

I hear the argument being presented. There are these works from the Baha’i Writings that are ‘unsavoury’ and the governing body of the Baha’i Faith do not want these translated into English. Some of those translations are of course readily available on the official Baha’i website in Persian or Arabic. The solution is simple. Find a Baha’i fluent in these languages. Unfortunately there are none currently active on this forum.

Whats not so frustrating Adrian is your attempt of making the Tu Quoque fallacy.

Not relevant. Your argument should have been that its none of my business because i wasnt involved in the question, and though its a public forum i would have accepted that as a valid argument compared to the one you are making about some episode that happened some long ago point of time.

And what happened at that time was I couldnt corroborate the arabic verson to the English version because there were translation issues and some verses were missing between the manuscript and your translation on your website.

I tried to explain but since you cant understand what i am saying i abandoned it. Its actually kind of pathetic to have to explainn something that happened long ago and you bringinng that as some response to a post today for a completely irrelevant comment.

).,

 

[Muffled]

Thanks for the question "paarsurrey"....

The Kitab-I-Iqan was revealed in response to questions by an uncle of Siyyid Ali Muhammad the Bab while the said uncle was on pilgrimage to Karbala near Baghdad. You can read the full text of the Iqan online at

The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

Shoghi Effendi wrote a foreword to his translation:

"This is one more attempt to introduce to the West, in language however inadequate, this book of unsurpassed preeminence among the writings of the Author of the Bahá’í Revelation. The hope is that it may assist others in their efforts to approach what must always be regarded as the unattainable goal—a befitting rendering of Bahá’u’lláh’s matchless utterance. "

—Shoghi

The opening paragraph and the rest of the Iqan is believed by Baha'is to be the revealed Word of God:

"No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the dispensations of Providence, hath been raised in the firmament of the Bayán.

The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. …"

At the time the Iqan was revealed Baha'u'llah was in exile in Baghdad.

Christopher Buck in his introduction to the Iqan has written:

"The Book of Certitude may be among the first texts by Baha'u'llah explicitly designated as "revelation," since the colophon at the end of the book refers to it as having been "revealed" (al-manzul [British Museum MS., BL Or. 3116, foll. 78-127] or in some MSS al-munzal [Browne's MS.]), by the "Ba' " and the "Ha' ", as Cambridge Orientalist Edward Granville Browne first pointed out (ET, 257). In Islamic thought use of such terminology is reserved for books written by prophets, and so it represents an early claim to such a theophanic status by Baha'u'llah."

Baha'u'llah's Book of Certitude and the Sun of Iqan (Certainty)

Thanks for the reference.

I believe those words qualify as the words of a religious philosopher but not as the words of God. The reason is that God speaks more directly than this convoluted way of saying things.

 

[Muffled]

Welcome friend @RabbiO . Please keep on one's occasional appearance in the threads started by me, one is equally welcome to make them frequent if one likes. There is no harm in it. Right, please?

Regards

Do you have a thread on MGA? I believe I haven't seen one. From a Biblical standpoint there is no man who can be the return of Jesus if he was born on earth.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Friend! I know that is one's belief, but now one has to prove it to help us understand one's belief with reason or, is it one acknowledgement that one's belief is in blindfaith, please?

Dear paarsurrey, I have no obligation to do what you have suggested and many even see it is against RF rule 8 to do so.

The quandary is, that all Faith is exactly the same. No one can prove the Quran or any other Scriptures, in any other way, but the same way a Baha'i offers.

It is offered as a gift, no obligation and no intent but as a gift that some may want and use, some will leave sitting around, some will throw away and then there are some that tell how bad the gift was and that one should not have given it.

Regards Tony

 

[Muffled]

Kitab-i-Iqan was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d. Was it?



"Every Writing by the Bab and Baha'u'llah were revealed from God"
Post #283 of our friend @Tony Bristow-Stagg and my post #285 in another thread repeated here for very much relevance here:

"Friend! I know that is one's belief, but now one has to prove it to help us understand one's belief with reason. Right, please?

We take first five verses of Iqan :
بسم ربّنا العليّ الاعلی
1 الباب المَذکُورُ فی بَيانِ اَنَّ العباد لَن يَصِلُوا إلی شاطِئِ بَحرِ العِرفانِ إلّا بِالانقِطاعِ الصِّرفِ عَن کُلِّ مَن فِی السَّمواتِ و الاَرضِ. قَدِّسُوا اَنفُسَکُم يا اَهلَ الاَرضِ لَعَلَّ تَصِلُنَّ إلی المقامِ الَّذی قَدَّر اللّهُ لَکُم و تَدخُلُنَّ فی سُرادقٍ جَعَلهُ اللّهُ فی سَماء البَيانِ مَرفوعاً.
2 جوهر اين باب آنکه سالکين سبيل ايمان و طالبين کؤوس ايقان بايد نفوس خود را از جميع شئونات عرضيّه پاک و مقدّس نمايند، يعنی گوش را از استماع اقوال و قلب را از ظنونات متعلّقه به سُبُحات جلال و روح را از تعلّق به اسباب ظاهره و چشم را از ملاحظه کلمات فانيه و متوکّلين علی اللّه و متوسّلين اليه سالک شوند تا آنکه قابل تجلّيات ۲ اشراقات شموس علم و عرفان الهی و محلّ ظهورات فيوضات غيب نامتناهی گردند . زيرا اگر عبد بخواهد اقوال و اعمال و افعال عباد را از عالِم و جاهل ميزان معرفت حقّ و اوليای او قرار دهد هرگز به رضوان معرفت ربّ العزّه داخل نشود و به سر منزل بقا نرسد و از جام قُرب و رضا مرزوق نگردد.
3ناظر به ايّام قبل شويد که چقدر مردم از اعالی و ادانی هميشه منتظر ظهورات احديّه در هياکل قدسيّه بوده‏اند به قسمی که در جميع اوقات و اوان مترصّد و منتظر بودند و دعاها و تضرّع ها می نمودند که شايد نسيم رحمت الهيّه به وزيدن آيد و جمال موعود از سرادق غيب به عرصه ظهور قدم گذارد. و چون ابواب عنايت مفتوح می گرديد و غمام مکرمت مرتفع و شمس غيب از افق قدرت ظاهر می شد جميع تکذيب می نمودند و از لقاء او که عين لقاءاللّه است احتراز می جستند چنانچه تفصيل آن در جميع کتب سماويّه مذکور و مسطور است.
4 حال قدری تأمّل نمائيد که سبب اعتراض ناس بعد از طلب و آمال ايشان چه بود. و به قسمی هم اعتراض می نمودند که زبان و بيان و تقرير و تحرير همه از ذکر آن عاجز و قاصر است. و احدی از مظاهر قدسيّه و مطالع احديّه ظاهر نشد مگر آنکه به اعتراض و انکار و احتجاج ناس مبتلا گشت.٣ چنانچه می فرمايد: "يا حَسرَةً عَلَی العِبادِ ما يأتيهِمْ مِن رَسُولٍ إلّا کَانُوا بِهِ يَستَهزِؤونَ
۱ و در مقام ديگر می فرمايد: "وَ هَمَّتْ کلُّ اُمّةٍ بِرَسولِهِم لِيَأخُذوهُ وَ جادَلُوا بِالباطل لِيُدحِضوا بِهِ الحَقّ." ۲
5 و همچنين کلمات منزله که از غمام قدرت صمدانيّه و سماء عزّت ربّانيّه نازل شده زياده از حدّ احصاء و احاطه عباد است و اولوا الأفئده و صاحبان بصر را سوره هود کفايت می کند. قدری در آن سوره مبارکه تأمّل فرمائيد و به فطرت اصليّه تدبّر نمائيد تا قدری بر بدائع امور انبياء و ردّ و تکذيب کلمات نفی اطّلاع يابيد، شايد ناس را از موطن غفلت نفسانيّه به آشيان وحدت و معرفت الهيّه پرواز دهيد و از زلال حکمت لايزال و اثمار شجره علم ذی الجلال بياشاميد و مرزوق گرديد. اين است نصيب انفس مجرّده از مائده منزله قدسيّه باقيه.
۱
[ بازگشت به مرجع][ سوره يس، آيهء ٣٠ ]
۲
[ بازگشت به مرجع][ سوره غافر (مؤمن)، آيه ۵ ]
مرجع كتب وآثار بهائی - کتاب ايقان٬ صفحه ١-١٥
Now its English Translation, please:
1 IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD, THE EXALTED, THE MOST HIGH.
No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the dispensations of Providence, hath been raised in the firmament of the Bayán.
2 The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge 4 and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.
3 Consider the past. How many, both high and low, have, at all times, yearningly awaited the advent of the Manifestations of God in the sanctified persons of His chosen Ones. How often have they expected His coming, how frequently have they prayed that the breeze of divine mercy might blow, and the promised Beauty step forth from behind the veil of concealment, and be made manifest to all the world. And whensoever the portals of grace did open, and the clouds of divine bounty did rain upon mankind, and the light of the Unseen did shine above the horizon of celestial might, they all denied Him, and turned away from His face—the face of God Himself. Refer ye, to verify this truth, to that which hath been recorded in every sacred Book.
4 Ponder for a moment, and reflect upon that which hath been the cause of such denial on the 1 Again He saith: “Each nation hath plotted darkly against their Messenger to lay violent hold on Him, and disputed with vain words to invalidate the truth.”
5 In like manner, those words that have streamed forth from the source of power and descended from the heaven of glory are innumerable and beyond the ordinary comprehension of man. To them that are possessed of true understanding and insight the Súrah of Húd surely sufficeth. Ponder a while those holy words in your heart, and, with utter detachment, strive to grasp their meaning. Examine the wondrous behaviour of the Prophets, and recall the defamations and denials uttered by 6 the children of negation and falsehood, perchance you may cause the bird of the human heart to wing its flight away from the abodes of heedlessness and doubt unto the nest of faith and certainty, and drink deep from the pure waters of ancient wisdom, and partake of the fruit of the tree of divine knowledge. Such is the share of the pure in heart of the bread that hath descended from the realms of eternity and holiness.
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

Is there any natural word/s in the text of the above verses that indicates that these verses are a Direct Verse from/by G-d addressed to Bahaullah, please?
On the same lines that I have adopted for Quran in my post #281, please . Right, please?
If one is not easy with Farsi Iqan to highlight one could highlight in the English translation, no harm, please.
Anybody, please"

Regards

I believe there is no direct statement in that text. He might be trying to say that his persecution was due to his being a messenger but that is not necessarily so. There were also people who had a false word who were persecuted.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe a persons consideration is no better than an opinion and I have seen some very messed up opinions on RF.

I don't believe you can use other writings as proof of this one.

I have read the Qur'an and there is sufficient evidence for me to accept it as the word of God. As for it coming from Muhammad, I accept his accreditation from those who wrote the history of it since that is the only source.

I do not believe he is a messenger of God and have seen no evidence of it. The words in his writings that I have seen so far are the words of a religious philosopher and not always correct and we know God does not make mistakes.

You do understand your negations are just as applicable to the Message of Jesus.

All methods that you use to prove Jesus the Christ, can be used to prove all Messengers. All methods that you use to reject any Messenger can be used to reject Jesus the Christ.

It is time to see the Light no matter from where it shines and give up on being an exclusive source of Truth.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe a persons consideration is no better than an opinion and I have seen some very messed up opinions on RF.

I don't believe you can use other writings as proof of this one.

I have read the Qur'an and there is sufficient evidence for me to accept it as the word of God. As for it coming from Muhammad, I accept his accreditation from those who wrote the history of it since that is the only source.

I do not believe he is a messenger of God and have seen no evidence of it. The words in his writings that I have seen so far are the words of a religious philosopher and not always correct and we know God does not make mistakes.

That is your belief as I have stated my belief. Beliefs are not arguments or proofs. At least we share some beliefs about the Bible, Quran, Jesus and Muhammad.

If you believe Bahá’u’lláh has made an incorrect statement feel free to provide the verse(s) and we can discuss it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe those words qualify as the words of a religious philosopher but not as the words of God. The reason is that God speaks more directly than this convoluted way of saying things.

Yet Jesus Christ spoke about the Spirit in many a Metephor. All the discourses of Jesus, have much more to consider, well beyond what was recorded.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

So Muslims believe the Quran is the Word of God, but now one has to prove it to help us understand one's belief with reason or, is it one acknowledgement that one's belief is in blindfaith, please?

It is claimed by Muslims the whole book of the Quran is Direct Converse of/from G-d with Muhammad. So we need these claims from within the main text of Quran in an unequivocal and straightforward manner that:

1. the whole Quran is Direct Converse of/from G-d with Muhammad.
2. The Quran is not authored by Muhammad.
3. and the natural words in the main text of Quran demonstrate to that effect.

Right, please?

In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.
[All] praise is [due] to Allah, Lord of the worlds -
The Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful,
Sovereign of the Day of Recompense
It is You we worship and You we ask for help.

https://quran.com/1

 

[paarsurrey]

Whats not so frustrating Adrian is your attempt of making the Tu Quoque fallacy.

Not relevant. Your argument should have been that its none of my business because i wasnt involved in the question, and though its a public forum i would have accepted that as a valid argument compared to the one you are making about some episode that happened some long ago point of time.

And what happened at that time was I couldnt corroborate the arabic verson to the English version because there were translation issues and some verses were missing between the manuscript and your translation on your website.

I tried to explain but since you cant understand what i am saying i abandoned it. Its actually kind of pathetic to have to explainn something that happened long ago and you bringinng that as some response to a post today for a completely irrelevant comment.

).,

"And what happened at that time was I couldnt corroborate the arabic verson to the English version because there were translation issues and some verses were missing between the manuscript and your translation on your website."

The difficulty faced by one is genuine. I also faced it.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

So Muslims believe the Quran is the Word of God, but now one has to prove it to help us understand one's belief with reason or, is it one acknowledgement that one's belief is in blindfaith, please?

It is claimed by Muslims the whole book of the Quran is Direct Converse of/from G-d with Muhammad. So we need these claims from within the main text of Quran in an unequivocal and straightforward manner that:

1. the whole Quran is Direct Converse of/from G-d with Muhammad.
2. The Quran is not authored by Muhammad.
3. and the natural words in the main text of Quran demonstrate to that effect.

Right, please?

In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.
[All] praise is [due] to Allah, Lord of the worlds -
The Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful,
Sovereign of the Day of Recompense
It is You we worship and You we ask for help.

https://quran.com/1

"So Muslims believe the Quran is the Word of God, but now one has to prove it to help us understand one's belief with reason"

I am already doing it in the thread <Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad>, an another Forum.

Regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

"So Muslims believe the Quran is the Word of God, but now one has to prove it to help us understand one's belief with reason"

I am already doing it in the thread <Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad>, an another Forum.

Regards

So have you managed to convince anyone the Quran is the Word of God who didn't believe it before you started the thread?

 

[paarsurrey]

So have you managed to convince anyone the Quran is the Word of God who didn't believe it before you started the thread?

Is it essential to convince others, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I recall when we initially talked about the Baha’i Faith in reference to the Kitab-i-Aqdas you seemed unable to produce a simply cut and paste of the English translation that is readily available for anyone. It appeared a prolonged and frustrating discussion for us both that was eventually abandoned at your request. You would continually accuse me of misunderstanding you, missing the point or going off on an irrelevant tangent as you have suggested here. If we cannot have a meaningful discussion about the vast body of the Baha’i writings that have been translated into English, how can we talk about the works that are yet to be translated?

I hear the argument being presented. There are these works from the Baha’i Writings that are ‘unsavoury’ and the governing body of the Baha’i Faith do not want these translated into English. Some of those translations are of course readily available on the official Baha’i website in Persian or Arabic. The solution is simple. Find a Baha’i fluent in these languages. Unfortunately there are none currently active on this forum.

"Unfortunately there are none currently active on this forum."

Sen McGlinn was mentioned by a Bahai friend, I remember, that he as an expert on Farsi. Right, please?
What happened to him, please?

Regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

Is it essential to convince others, please?

Regards

It is not. However the purpose of this forum is to enable civil and respectful discussions between peoples of different faiths. If two people are simply talking past each other, not listening and insisting on their own point of view, it is neither civil nor respectful.

 

[Dawnofhope]

"Unfortunately there are none currently active on this forum."

Sen McGlinn was mentioned by a Bahai friend, I remember, that he as an expert on Farsi. Right, please?
What happened to him, please?

Regards

Although Sen considers himself a Baha'i he is not recognised as a Baha'i by our governing body (Universal House of Justice), nor by many Baha'is. Part of the issue was Sen (and he will most likely disagree) producing his own unauthorised translations for the purposes of justifying his conclusions that were in contradiction with Central Teachings of the Baha'i Faith. He is of course free to translate the Baha'i writings if he wishes and make all manner of claims about what the Baha'i Faith is and isn't as you are. If he wishes to be recognised by the Baha'i administration that is another story.

It is relatively easy for someone who is bilingual and fluent in both languages to translate a writing from one language to another. However they can easily change the meaning or miss the nuances of the original work being translated. Translation of sacred writings is a highly skilled area of work and one needs to be free from personal agendas to reflect faithfully the meaning, spirit and intent of the original work being translated into another language.

The problem becomes an issue of trust. The critics of the Baha'i Faith will accuse Baha'i translators of positive bias. The Baha'is will accuse some Muslims translators of negative bias. If we can not find common ground with a translation that both parties agree on then any conversation or dialogue is unlikely to go well.