Female Pastors? is it Biblical

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.

Should I wait for you to offer something constructive first?

All you did was tell me that I was wrong and ignored the bulk of the scriptures.

was it me or the bible that told you that you was in ERROR? remember the OP, no opinions needed?
Just zero in on the scriptures, not me.
second, if what I posted was not constructive, WHY RESPOND?
so it must be........

Who else in Heaven could refer to the Lord Jesus Christ as His Son if not God the Father?

The Father spoke from Heaven at key times throughout the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ such as at His baptism and at the Mount of Transfiguration.

It is clear that this is God the Father speaking about His Son. However, John 12:28 makes it even more clear,

"Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again." (John 12:28)

Even know this exchange of the Son speaking and the Father responding makes it crystal clear who the owner of the "voice from heaven" is, there were those present who were still dumbfounded about it,

"The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him." (John 12:29)

If those people could become confused while being first-hand witnesses of the truth - then I'm not surprised that people like you could become confused as well.

That tends to happen when people pick and choose which truths to learn a

scripture, Genesis 22:11 "And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I."
Genesis 22:12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."
Now, who did Abraham withheld his "son" from? GOD right, but who was speaking from heaven? that's right the angel for God. my. my, my. ... oh well.... so now are you confused as to who was speaking from heaven in Genessis 22? I hope not. and in the NT at our Lord's Baptism and on the mount the scriptures clearly says, "a voice" so don't ASSUME nothing nor add to the word of God.

*********************************************************************************************************
THIS IS A BIG FAT ERROR

The title "Lord God" could be applied to both the Father and the Son.

Your Revelation reference is speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ because He is/was the one who called prophets.

It's all about context.

ok, let get context correct. John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." THE CONTEXT HERE IS THE "Lord" JESUS ... THE WORD WHO MADE ALL THINGS. this is the Son, the "Lord" correct?. now this,
Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" NOW JesusKnowsYou, is this the same PERSON here that is in John 1:3 Yes or No. and remember the person in Isaiah 44:24 said that he was "ALONE" and "BY HIMSELF". meaning that he didn't Go through anyone, and being by himself that means no one else was with him, meaning no second, or third person was with him.
now take your time and answer correctly. for if you say that this is not the same PERSON then you have two creators. ...... cain't wait for your answer.

we don't need to go any futher, for this will settle the question about God as ONE person quickly and easly. which will answer those voices that you didn't hear.... and is not in scripture. .

PICJAG.

 

[sojourner]

Not necessarily.

A bishop was always an elder, but an elder was not always a bishop.

Elders were those who possessed the Priesthood and could be called to many positions, such as a missionary or even an apostleship.

A bishop was an elder who was called to preside over a church or congregation.

Uh, no. Not according to the Bible.

 

[sojourner]

first thanks for the reply, second, the ecclesiological use of the term "OFFICE", in reference to Pastor is because many understand this term. but in reality Pastor is a "WORK" not an Office.

so historically the position we take on a Pastor is well-grounded.

PICJAG

That’s what I said. But I think, in order to facilitate the debate, we need to be very specific with terminology. “Can women be pastors” is an entirely different question from “Can women hold ecclesial office.”

 

[101G]

That’s what I said. But I think, in order to facilitate the debate, we need to be very specific with terminology. “Can women be pastors” is an entirely different question from “Can women hold ecclesial office.”

first thanks for the reply, second, if God calls a woman to feed his sheep who are we to say NO?
for God is not a respector of Person. if he is then count me out.

but know that there is neither male nor felame in Christ Jesus then I'm in. I trust God, not man.

now as you said,"lets understand this Pastor in God church". for there is only ONE pastor in the body of Christ and that's him. for pastoring is a GIFT, not an office. a work of God through men and "WOMEN".

do you disagree or not that the work of Pastor is a gift and not an office?.

for the bible is clear with women having the Gift of Pastor/Bishop.

PICJAG.

 

[sojourner]

first thanks for the reply, second, if God calls a woman to feed his sheep who are we to say NO?
for God is not a respector of Person. if he is then count me out.

but know that there is neither male nor felame in Christ Jesus then I'm in. I trust God, not man.

now as you said,"lets understand this Pastor in God church". for there is only ONE pastor in the body of Christ and that's him. for pastoring is a GIFT, not an office. a work of God through men and "WOMEN".

do you disagree or not that the work of Pastor is a gift and not an office?.

for the bible is clear with women having the Gift of Pastor/Bishop.

PICJAG.

You’re still not getting it. The bishop acts as pastor in Christ’s stead. The term as used by Protestants is ecclesially misleading. Anyone, regardless of sex, may be called and ordained to the office of bishop, presbyter, and deacon. The Bible makes clear that females were called to these offices in the early days of the church.

As an example, Katharine Jefferts Schori is the former Presiding Bishop of the ECUSA, the American arm of the Anglican communion. She is the primary pastor of that communion. It is in accordance with biblical tenet.

 

[101G]

You’re still not getting it. The bishop acts as pastor in Christ’s stead. The term as used by Protestants is ecclesially misleading. Anyone, regardless of sex, may be called and ordained to the office of bishop, presbyter, and deacon. The Bible makes clear that females were called to these offices in the early days of the church.

As an example, Katharine Jefferts Schori is the former Presiding Bishop of the ECUSA, the American arm of the Anglican communion. She is the primary pastor of that communion. It is in accordance with biblical tenet.

no, the bishop do not act in Christ stead. the bishop present his or her body for our Lord to use. the apostle Peter made that very clear. .Acts 3:12 "And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?" just as with a pastor, he or she cannot preach or teach the truth on their own.

you said, "Anyone, regardless of sex, may be called and ordained to the office of bishop, presbyter, and deacon. The Bible makes clear that females were called to these offices in the early days of the church". I believe I said that.

PICJAG.

 

[sojourner]

no, the bishop do not act in Christ stead. the bishop present his or her body for our Lord to use. the apostle Peter made that very clear. .Acts 3:12 "And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?" just as with a pastor, he or she cannot preach or teach the truth on their own.

you said, "Anyone, regardless of sex, may be called and ordained to the office of bishop, presbyter, and deacon. The Bible makes clear that females were called to these offices in the early days of the church". I believe I said that.

PICJAG.

This isn’t cogent to your point, because one of the stipulations of the call is that we act on Christ’s behalf, acknowledging that it is the Holy Spirit working in us. That’s why ordained persons are sealed with an anointing as part of the Rite.

When the Disciples came to Jesus saying that the multitudes were hungry, Jesus directed them to feed the people, setting the precedent for ministry on Christ’s behalf. Yes, bishops do act on Christ’s behalf. Again, that’s why they carry the crozier as a sign of their office and especially as a sign of their pastoral ministry.

 

[101G]

This isn’t cogent to your point, because one of the stipulations of the call is that we act on Christ’s behalf, acknowledging that it is the Holy Spirit working in us. That’s why ordained persons are sealed with an anointing as part of the Rite.

When the Disciples came to Jesus saying that the multitudes were hungry, Jesus directed them to feed the people, setting the precedent for ministry on Christ’s behalf. Yes, bishops do act on Christ’s behalf. Again, that’s why they carry the crozier as a sign of their office and especially as a sign of their pastoral ministry.

one follow the Spirit, he guides you , the call is not you to be you, but you to be conformed to him. not he to you. it is he who live in you, and it is you who grow in him. when one act, not on their own accord but his. as ambassadors we speak not on our own, but his. and it is his power not ours. .

PICJAG.

 

[sojourner]

one follow the Spirit, he guides you , the call is not you to be you, but you to be conformed to him. not he to you. it is he who live in you, and it is you who grow in him. when one act, not on their own accord but his. as ambassadors we speak not on our own, but his. and it is his power not ours. .

PICJAG.

Could have sworn that I just said that.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.
Let's address the two woman bishop of Roman chapter 16.

#1. Romans 16:1 "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:"
it's very interesting how the term servant is defind. according to Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments, "servant" is defined as,
G1249 διάκονος diakonos (d̮iy-a'-ko-nos) n.
1. an attendant, a servant.
2. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties).
3. (specially) a male Christian serving in a specific function and post (i.e. tending the widows and the poor, teaching, pastoring, etc).
[probably from an obsolete diako “to run on errands”]
KJV: deacon, minister, servant
Compare: G1377

notice definition #3 above, it states, "specially" a MALE Christian serving. but it is applied to our sister Phebe, a woman.
now, Romans 16:2 "That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also."

SUCCOURER: G4368 προστάτις prostatis (pro-sta'-tis) n.
a patroness, i.e. assistant.
[feminine of a derivative of G4291]
KJV: succourer
Root(s): G4291

the feminine of a derivative of G4291 ok, what's G4291? according to Thayer's Greek Definitions,
- Original: προΐ́στημι
- Transliteration: Proistemi
- Phonetic: pro-is'-tay-mee
- Definition:
1. to set or place before
a. to set over
b. to be over, to superintend, preside over
c. to be a protector or guardian
1. to give aid
d. to care for, give attention to
1. profess honest occupations
- Origin: from G4253 and G2476
- TDNT entry: 6:700,*
- Part(s) of speech: Verb

according to Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-iy'-stee-miy) v.
1. to stand before.
2. (in rank) to preside.
3. (by implication) to practise.
[from G4253 and G2476]
KJV: maintain, be over, rule
Root(s): G4253, G2476

so in knowing that, she is the female counter part of the male in the same position, just as a prophetess is the female derivative of a male prophet. so the "feminine derivative" of the male counter part bishop is the female succourer.

this same Greek word G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-iy'-stee-miy), "TO BE RULER OVER", is used in what a bishop/succourer. is suppose to do 1 Timothy 3:4 "One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;".
it is also applied to "elders". 1 Timothy 5:17 "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine."
also this applies to those who labor in the gospel in leadership roles, 1 Thessalonians 5:12 "And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;" and here are a couple of women who labor in the gospel. Philippians 4:2 & 3 "I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord." 3 "And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life."

so the bible clearly states WOMEN "Laboured" and had leadership roles in the spreading of the gospel.

Woman Bishop #2 Romans 16:3 "Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:"
the Greek word for helpers here is G4904 συνεργός sunergos (sïn-er-ğos') adj. which means,
a co-laborer, i.e. coadjutor.
[from a presumed compound of G4862 and the base of G2041]
KJV: companion in labour, (fellow-)helper(-labourer, -worker), labourer together with, workfellow
Root(s): G4862, G2041

the term "coadjutor" means,
an assistant.
an assistant to a bishop or other ecclesiastic.
a bishop who assists another bishop, with the right of succession.

so this woman, Priscilla, with her husband was a co-laborer, "co" here meaning "equal" are coadjutor to the apostle/Bishop Paul.

two Bishop women/pastors/bishop/succourer right in the same chapter of verse.

PICJAG.

 

[nPeace]

@JesusKnowsYou thank you very very much for your fine use of scripture, and clear, simple, and extensive explanation on the subject (title).

 

[sojourner]

There is no scriptural basis for the allowance of females to be in positions of leadership with the congregation. The Biblical precedent is for those positions to be handled by men.

Well, there certainly is!

 

[sojourner]

There seems to be a disparity between what those roles entailed back then and what they came to mean in an apostate church system in later centuries....when they became positions of rank and authority.

You’re assuming facts not in evidence here.

When you consider that elders had some authority in the congregation especially with regard to judging wrong conduct and enforcing expulsion for non repentance, if women were in those positions they would be exercising authority over men....something Paul said that women cannot do in God's arrangement

That statement mirrors a cultural norm, not a spiritual norm.

Also, there was never just one pastor to care for a congregation, but a body of elders to care for the flock

You’re forgetting that the diocese is the basic unit of church, over which a bishop pastors, with the help of her or his duly designated representatives (presbyterate) and his duly designated servers (diaconate). Individual congregations are a matter of temporal convenience, not ecclesial existentialism.

 

[sojourner]

as said, scriptures are not my opinions, if you have any contention, take it up with the one who wrote his opinion ...... God. that's why I said no opinions needed, only scripture.

PICJAG.

And here your textual credibility leaves the rails. God wrote nothing. People wrote their opinions of how they viewed the spiritual milieu in which they found themselves. And since the nature of scripture is that it is multivalent, most everything we can say about the texts is opinion and arguable.

I was so hoping you weren’t in the heretical sola scriptura camp, and that you weren’t a biblical literalist.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

@JesusKnowsYou thank you very very much for your fine use of scripture, and clear, simple, and extensive explanation on the subject (title).

You're welcome! God bless!

 

[101G]

And here your textual credibility leaves the rails. God wrote nothing. People wrote their opinions of how they viewed the spiritual milieu in which they found themselves. And since the nature of scripture is that it is multivalent, most everything we can say about the texts is opinion and arguable.

I was so hoping you weren’t in the heretical sola scriptura camp, and that you weren’t a biblical literalist.

first thanks for the reply, you said, "People wrote their opinions of how they viewed the spiritual milieu in which they found themselves.". who was that?. and if they did, then it was by permission of God.
so again, who wrote their own opinion without approval from God?
second, God has done away with the old and restored anew, but he did not change his will just for you nor I or anyone else...... nor did he design his word to be interpreted several ways either. this is where all four wheels of YOUR intelligence came off, and now your whole wagon is dragging in or is stuck in the mud of Godly understanding for his word interprete/explain itself. but here are many, and we mean many a christian problem.2 Peter 3:15-16 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;" 16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

so what men do? they make up their OWN private interpretation of the scriptures, or .... their OWN OPINIONS ........ lol, 2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." that's what they do, ........ instead of doing what the bible tells them to do. scripture, 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." so men don't study, instead of being ashame, they lie and make up their OWN private interpretations. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE SO MANY DENOMINATIONS WITH THEIR OWN PRIVATE OPINIONS

well, as said in the OP, NO OPINIONS, only Scripture. how many time must we say this? one can agree or disagree, if so prove your point by scripture. no harm.

PICJAG.

 

[sojourner]

first thanks for the reply, you said, "People wrote their opinions of how they viewed the spiritual milieu in which they found themselves.". who was that?. and if they did, then it was by permission of God.
so again, who wrote their own opinion without approval from God?
second, God has done away with the old and restored anew, but he did not change his will just for you nor I or anyone else...... nor did he design his word to be interpreted several ways either. this is where all four wheels of YOUR intelligence came off, and now your whole wagon is dragging in or is stuck in the mud of Godly understanding for his word interprete/explain itself. but here are many, and we mean many a christian problem.2 Peter 3:15-16 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;" 16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

so what men do? they make up their OWN private interpretation of the scriptures, or .... their OWN OPINIONS ........ lol, 2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." that's what they do, ........ instead of doing what the bible tells them to do. scripture, 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." so men don't study, instead of being ashame, they lie and make up their OWN private interpretations. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE SO MANY DENOMINATIONS WITH THEIR OWN PRIVATE OPINIONS

well, as said in the OP, NO OPINIONS, only Scripture. how many time must we say this? one can agree or disagree, if so prove your point by scripture. no harm.

PICJAG.

I think we’re done here. I pointed out in the very beginning that informed opinion has always been part of the mutual and consensual discernment processes of the church; it has never been about scripture only, nor has it been about private opinions. The Church is one body — one community. If you intend to demean that honorable process and downplay the scriptural texts by arguing what they are not, and further dishonor my intelligence because I disagree with you, so be it. But I’m not playing in that litter box.

Too bad; I had such high hopes for your posts, and now this.

 

[Deeje]

You’re assuming facts not in evidence here.

Do you think this is what Jesus started?

Or this...?

When the mob came to arrest Jesus, Judas had to identify him with a kiss.....not by the funny headgear or fancy robes he was wearing.

Matthew 20:25-27...
"But Jesus called them to him and said: “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. 26 This must not be the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave."

The Spanish Inquisition was proof that Christ was never among them. Their behavior was nothing short of 'disgusting'.

With the description of the "harlot" in Revelation, I think it is easy to see who is included in that description....

Revelation 17:3-6....
"And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored wild beast that was full of blasphemous names and that had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and she was adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, and she had in her hand a golden cup that was full of disgusting things and the unclean things of her sexual immorality. 5 On her forehead was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great, the mother of the prostitutes and of the disgusting things of the earth.” 6 And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus."

The woman is described as a "great city" and we are told to "get out of her" if we do not want to share in the judgment that is coming to her...(Revelation 18:4-5; 9-10)

Christ was never about the trappings of wealth, nor did he advocate torture or the wielding of power over others.

That statement mirrors a cultural norm, not a spiritual norm.

The office of a "Bishop" in today's church is not really like those appointed in original Christianity...
The first century Christian Congregation was not led by a single minister or priest. The office of "bishop" (episkopē) was described in Strongs Concordance as....

1. "investigation, inspection, visitation
   1. that act by which God looks into and searches out the ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sad
      
      
   2. oversight
      1. overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder
         
         
      2. the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church

So a 'Bishop' is an "overseer" (elder) which is not a just position of authority, but one who takes the role of a shepherd and who is responsible before God make sure that each sheep in the flock is cared for individually. A body of elders was needed to care for a flock in this personalized way, so the congregations were kept small. It was part of his job to visit the members of the congregation and for them to know him and his fellow 'elders' on a personal basis. (Hebrews 13:17) When problems arose, they were to be approachable and to help as much as they could. (Isaiah 32:1-2) They would offer comfort and encouraging scriptural counsel appropriate to individual circumstances. They were also to keep the Congregation spiritually and morally clean. If discipline was needed, it was administered.

I believe this personal relationship is largely lost in Christendom....especially in the mega-churches.

You’re forgetting that the diocese is the basic unit of church, over which a bishop pastors, with the help of her or his duly designated representatives (presbyterate) and his duly designated servers (diaconate). Individual congregations are a matter of temporal convenience, not ecclesial existentialism.

There was no "her or his" as far as shepherds went. Women had a specific role in the congregations, but a leadership role was not one of them. Like Eve, women are the support team.....there was balance and order in the congregations, where roles were clearly defined and women never competed with men for teaching or leadership roles.

That is how I understand things.....

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.

The office of a "Bishop" in today's church is not really like those appointed in original Christianity...
The first century Christian Congregation was not led by a single minister or priest. The office of "bishop" (episkopē) was described in Strongs Concordance as....

1. "investigation, inspection, visitation
   1. that act by which God looks into and searches out the ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sad
      
      
   2. oversight
      1. overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder
         
         
      2. the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church

So a 'Bishop' is an "overseer" (elder) which is not a just position of authority, but one who takes the role of a shepherd and who is responsible before God make sure that each sheep in the flock is cared for individually. A body of elders was needed to care for a flock in this personalized way, so the congregations were kept small. It was part of his job to visit the members of the congregation and for them to know him and his fellow 'elders' on a personal basis. (Hebrews 13:17) When problems arose, they were to be approachable and to help as much as they could. (Isaiah 32:1-2) They would offer comfort and encouraging scriptural counsel appropriate to individual circumstances. They were also to keep the Congregation spiritually and morally clean. If discipline was needed, it was administered.

I believe this personal relationship is largely lost in Christendom....especially in the mega-churches.

AMEN, 100% correct.

 

[101G]

I think we’re done here. I pointed out in the very beginning that informed opinion has always been part of the mutual and consensual discernment processes of the church; it has never been about scripture only, nor has it been about private opinions. The Church is one body — one community. If you intend to demean that honorable process and downplay the scriptural texts by arguing what they are not, and further dishonor my intelligence because I disagree with you, so be it. But I’m not playing in that litter box.

Too bad; I had such high hopes for your posts, and now this.

first thanks for the reply. second there is nothing to point out but the scriptures. if one make a doctrine, fine, but it must be scriptual based. I have seen no scriptual bases for any of your points. so since we're done, I leave you with two scriptures that are based on what you said about being done. , Revelation 22:11 with this in mind, 2 Corinthians 4:3.

good day

PICJAG.