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I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Isaiah was the 8th-century BCE Israelite Prophet after whom the Book of Isaiah is named. Within the text of the Book of Isaiah, Isaiah himself is referred to as "the prophet". There are many verses within this book that the followers of Judaism, Christianity and the Baha'i Faith considered Messianic. Others refer to a time of peace in the very distant future. Although the Prophet Isaiah is not mentioned in the Quran or Hadiths some Islam scholar recognise him as a Prophet. Some will even go as far as to claim Isaiah predicted the coming of Muhammad.

The book of Isaiah is composed of 66 chapters. A verse within the 65th chapter reads:

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isaiah 65:17

With reference to scripture (from and Abrahamic Faiths) what do you think Isaiah was trying to communicate?
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
With reference to scripture (from and Abrahamic Faith) what do you think Isaiah was trying to communicate?
The old world is removed, and the new one is replaced in a day; then the Enlightened Saints are resurrected.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Isaiah was the 8th-century BCE Israelite Prophet after whom the Book of Isaiah is named. Within the text of the Book of Isaiah, Isaiah himself is referred to as "the prophet". There are many verses within this book that both the followers of Judaism, Christianity and the Baha'i Faith considered Messianic. Others refer to a time of peace in the very distant future. Although the Prophet Isaiah is not mentioned in the Quran or Hadiths some Islam scholar recognise him as a Prophet. Some will even go as far as to claim Isaiah predicted the coming of Muhammad.

The book of Isaiah is composed of 66 chapters. A verse within the 65th chapter reads:

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isaiah 65:17

It would be similar to the Lord saying, "all the earth will know me, from the least to the greatest."
With reference to scripture (from and Abrahamic Faiths) what do you think Isaiah was trying to communicate?
I think Isaiah is referring to people when he says "new heavens and new earth". for example, he says in Isa 1:2 "Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: “I have nourished and brought up children, And they have rebelled against Me;"

That verse is similar to Deu 32:1 "Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak; hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

The literal heavens and earth cannot hear, so a new heavens and earth refers to people wherein righteousness dwells.

Isa 11:9 says "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." The literal earth does not become full of knowledge, but people do.
 
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Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
Isaiah was the 8th-century BCE Israelite Prophet after whom the Book of Isaiah is named. Within the text of the Book of Isaiah, Isaiah himself is referred to as "the prophet". There are many verses within this book that both the followers of Judaism, Christianity and the Baha'i Faith considered Messianic. Others refer to a time of peace in the very distant future. Although the Prophet Isaiah is not mentioned in the Quran or Hadiths some Islam scholar recognise him as a Prophet. Some will even go as far as to claim Isaiah predicted the coming of Muhammad.

The book of Isaiah is composed of 66 chapters. A verse within the 65th chapter reads:

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isaiah 65:17

With reference to scripture (from and Abrahamic Faiths) what do you think Isaiah was trying to communicate?

In (Is.62) God is promising to Israel restoration to Himself. This is a future restoration due to the judgments that Isaiah prophesied of earlier in his book. Though Israel will suffer judgment, God is not finished with her. (62:11-12) "...Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh...And they shall call them, The holy people...."

In (Is. 63) the coming Messiah will take vengeance on the enemies of God and Israel. (63:4) "For the day of vengeance is in mine heart...." (63:7) "I will mention the lovingkindness of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel...." Though God once fought against Israel due to their rebellion, in a future day He will fight for them. (63:10-11) "But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people...."

In (Is. 64) Isaiah bemoans the condition of Israel but reminds God they are His people. (64:9-12) "Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people....Wilt thou refrain thyself for these things, O LORD? wilt thou hold thy peace, and afflict us very sore?

In (Is. 65) the Lord answers these questions. There will be nothing but judgement until Israel returns to her God. (65:1-2) "I am sought of them that asked not for me....I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts." (65:12) "Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:a because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes and did choose that wherein I delighted not."

In (Is. 65:8-16) contrast is made between the unbelieving Israel and the future believing Israel. (65:9) "And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there." (65:14) "Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit."

This blessing of the seed out of Jacob will be at a future day when the conditions of the earth and heaven will be new. God's presence will be there. Israel will have it's rightful place as the leading nation of the world and blessed by God. This time will be so blissful that remembrance of any former sufferings and sin will be forgotten. (65:16-17)

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Isaiah is many a reader's most beloved book of the Old Testament / Tanakh outside the Torah itself and the Wisdom books.

We know that Isaiah was probably the most popular of the nevi'im [prophets] in Second Temple Judaism (Hannah 2005, p. 7).

So highly regarded was he by the church fathers and medieval Christians, that St. Jerome could write: “Methinks Isaiah writes not a prophecy, but a gospel", while St. Augustine could say: "He could be better called an evangelist than a prophet." That was high praise from a Christian pov.

It is a gorgeously written ancient text, with vivid imagery and yet a real cadence of mercy and compassion running through its oracles that is quite striking if one compares the book with the other Major Prophets (for instance, Ezekiel).

That said, I would be hesitant in referring to 'Isaiah' in the singular: scholars have discerned at least three possible 'Isaiahs' behind the text - the original prophet himself, Isaiah son of Amoz (40 BC to 700 BC); Deutero-Isaiah prophesying in about the fifth century BCE (Chapters 40–55), at the end of the Babylonian captivity and potentially a third, dubbed Trito-Isaiah (chapters 55–66).

The two latter prophets are anonymous, because they were following in the footsteps of the original prophet (whose oracles make up the lion's share of the text, chapters 1 - 39) and helped to further embellish some of the themes he had voiced in his own lifetime.

Your quotation @adrian009 is from the last author of the Book of Isaiah, "Trito" (a post-exilic prophet in Judah). Most scholars accept the separation between Proto-Isaiah and Deutero-Isaiah but there is no common agreement on the Third Isaiah. However, I'll treat him as a distinct personality for the purposes of this post (as per Duhm and Schmid: "in contrast to the unconditional salvation oracles in Isaiah 40 55, judgment oracles return in chapters 56-66").

To quote one scholar, Blenkinsopp: "Most scholars agree, nevertheless,that the bulk of 56-66 reflects the situation in the province of Judah (Yehud) during thefirst century of Persian rule, corresponding more or less to the reigns of Darius (522-486),Xerxes I (486-465) and Artaxerxes (465-424)." (Blenkinsopp, Isaiah 56-66, 43).

Chapters 55 - 66 mainly deal with social and religious problems. At the beginning, we have economic difficulties (Isaiah 60:17; 62:8) and unstable politics (Isaiah 60:10, 18). This appears to reflect the pessimism of the return of the first exiles to Judaea after the ascension of Cyrus the Great and their liberation, momentous events that had led to the buoyed hopes and idealism of Deutero-Isaiah (acclaiming Cyrus as Adonai's 'annointed'). To comfort the exiles, Trito-Isaiah propounds an eschatological vision of the future.

In some respects, Trito-Isaiah is here picking up a refrain already delivered by his predecessor Deutero-Isaiah (43:16-21).

The majority of scholars do not appear to interpret Deutero-Isaiah as predicting a truly 'apocalyptic' scenario (although this is defended by prominent ones such as Westermann (1969) and J.D. Smart (1965)), with the 'old' heaven and earth being destroyed and the creation of a new cosmos (as most Christians have understood it). If that were so, Isaiah would not be a prophet (per se) but an apocalypticist like the author of the Book of Daniel and the text would be found in the Ketuvim (writings) section rather than in the Prophets.

Trito-Isaiah, likewise, seems to envisage a miraculous 'renewal': "a total and radical change of the existing state of affairs [...] It has its place of reality in history - in this world, not in another one." (Studies in the Book of Wisdom, p.120). The past participle in 65:17 indicates a change that is already "beginning to be" but will be realised fully in the "gathering of the nations". It fits a theme of utopian hope about a future age of peace in Isaiah (found in the original prophet and Deutero as well).

However, these last chapters of Isaiah may also depict a future reality in which God will fashion an entirely new heaven and a new earth - in other words, the first clear outline of what Orthodox Jews call olam ha-ba the "world to come", עולם הבא, a properly transcendental reality as opposed to just temporal well-being (i.e. Deutero-Isaiah), after the resurrection of the dead and the earthly Messianic Age.
 
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leov

Well-Known Member
Isaiah was the 8th-century BCE Israelite Prophet after whom the Book of Isaiah is named. Within the text of the Book of Isaiah, Isaiah himself is referred to as "the prophet". There are many verses within this book that both the followers of Judaism, Christianity and the Baha'i Faith considered Messianic. Others refer to a time of peace in the very distant future. Although the Prophet Isaiah is not mentioned in the Quran or Hadiths some Islam scholar recognise him as a Prophet. Some will even go as far as to claim Isaiah predicted the coming of Muhammad.

The book of Isaiah is composed of 66 chapters. A verse within the 65th chapter reads:

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isaiah 65:17

With reference to scripture (from and Abrahamic Faiths) what do you think Isaiah was trying to communicate?
Basically, imo, it says 'I plan universe of different consciousness'.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
In my humble opinion, you have to start with the opening words of Genesis:
'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.' This was the first heaven and earth. It came 'in the beginning'.

If we then turn to the last book in the Bible, Revelation, we have this said:
Rev.21:1. 'And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.'

Within the covers of the Bible you have God's dealings with us (those living under the shadow of sin within the first heaven and earth).

IMO, the time period given in Genesis is a week of 7 thousand years. The new heaven and earth should appear after seven thousand years. We are somewhere near the end of six thousand since Adam.

As I understand it, sea is a reference to sin, so like LightofTruth I understand this passage to be talking about a time in the future when God makes all things new under Christ.

The prophet Isaiah confirms the revelations given by Moses and John. Together they confirm the words of Jesus, who said, 'scripture cannot be broken.'
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
In my humble opinion, you have to start with the opening words of Genesis:
'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.' This was the first heaven and earth. It came 'in the beginning'.

If we then turn to the last book in the Bible, Revelation, we have this said:
Rev.21:1. 'And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.'

Within the covers of the Bible you have God's dealings with us (those living under the shadow of sin within the first heaven and earth).

IMO, the time period given in Genesis is a week of 7 thousand years. The new heaven and earth should appear after seven thousand years. We are somewhere near the end of six thousand since Adam.

As I understand it, sea is a reference to sin, so like LightofTruth I understand this passage to be talking about a time in the future when God makes all things new under Christ.

The prophet Isaiah confirms the revelations given by Moses and John. Together they confirm the words of Jesus, who said, 'scripture cannot be broken.'

I really liked your application of a thousand years for a day which totals 7,000 years. I’d like to take it a step further and share my understanding if that’s ok.

To me a Day of God is a dispensation of God or the Day of each of His Prophets or Educators. So for me the seven days refer to the Day of Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Muhammad, Christ, Moses and the Bab. And that I understand to be the ‘Adamic Cycle’ or the ‘Cycle of Prophecy’ when prophecies were made about a ‘New Cycle’ which would be the ‘Cycle of Fulfilment’ of the prophecies. Now each of these Prophets prophesied His own ‘Return’ which i believe to be all referring to the same Person, the same Promised One Who will usher in the ‘new heaven and the new earth’ which is the beginning of the ‘Days of fulfilment’ when the promises recorded in all the Holy scriptures will begin to be fulfilled.

Krishna prophecies Kalki Avatar, Buddha Maitreya or AmitAbha Buddha, Zoroaster - Shah Bahram, Moses the Messiah Ben David, Christ - Christ returned in the glory of the Father and the Bab ‘Him Whom God will make Manifest’.

Now things like the Jews returning to Israel and knowledge to and fro have already begun to and are happening. So to me although all the prophecies have not been fulfilled in an instant they are being fulfilled. To me that indicates that the Promised One awaited has already appeared. We Baha’is believe that One to be Baha’u’llah.

We are told that His Cycle will last 500,000 years. So we still have world peace and a golden age of humanity awaiting us. A beautiful future. And what I believe humanity is experiencing now is the ‘death pangs of the old cycle or world’ and the. ‘Birth pangs of the new world struggling to be born’.


Your post was very inspiring that I you for that.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Isaiah was the 8th-century BCE Israelite Prophet after whom the Book of Isaiah is named. Within the text of the Book of Isaiah, Isaiah himself is referred to as "the prophet". There are many verses within this book that both the followers of Judaism, Christianity and the Baha'i Faith considered Messianic. Others refer to a time of peace in the very distant future. Although the Prophet Isaiah is not mentioned in the Quran or Hadiths some Islam scholar recognise him as a Prophet. Some will even go as far as to claim Isaiah predicted the coming of Muhammad.

The book of Isaiah is composed of 66 chapters. A verse within the 65th chapter reads:

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isaiah 65:17

With reference to scripture (from and Abrahamic Faiths) what do you think Isaiah was trying to communicate?

I have yet to study the prophets and their historical context, but from what I do know I have to wonder whether Isaiah was one of the first great authors of what became the Jewish Testament. His own book seems to be an accumulation of up to three different authors writing at three different times during the period during which the Davidic Kingdom became more of a property of foreign powers where crisis followed crisis culminating in exiles. We can see Egyptian and Mesopotamian Kingdoms playing a significant role throughout the stories of the Jewish Testament. Did Isaiah's prophecies reflect the stories of Genesis or did the stories of Genesis reflect Isaiah? And did the poetics of Isaiah also serve to fashion a new apocalyptic vision for Jews laboring under the burden of Roman occupation? Its seems like in all cases the burden of a smaller people who achieved something of a local unity, who wanted to maintain that unity, fought hard to do so against forces much greater than themselves. There must have been great despair at times when the most consequential events transpired that could transpire short of total annihilation.

I see in this quote from Isaiah shades of Noah and of Revelations. Despair for the existence of one's people, despair, fear and suffering and a promise from God to match that if His people will choose to discipline themselves to achieving that promise.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I really liked your application of a thousand years for a day which totals 7,000 years. I’d like to take it a step further and share my understanding if that’s ok.

To me a Day of God is a dispensation of God or the Day of each of His Prophets or Educators. So for me the seven days refer to the Day of Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Muhammad, Christ, Moses and the Bab. And that I understand to be the ‘Adamic Cycle’ or the ‘Cycle of Prophecy’ when prophecies were made about a ‘New Cycle’ which would be the ‘Cycle of Fulfilment’ of the prophecies. Now each of these Prophets prophesied His own ‘Return’ which i believe to be all referring to the same Person, the same Promised One Who will usher in the ‘new heaven and the new earth’ which is the beginning of the ‘Days of fulfilment’ when the promises recorded in all the Holy scriptures will begin to be fulfilled.

Krishna prophecies Kalki Avatar, Buddha Maitreya or AmitAbha Buddha, Zoroaster - Shah Bahram, Moses the Messiah Ben David, Christ - Christ returned in the glory of the Father and the Bab ‘Him Whom God will make Manifest’.

Now things like the Jews returning to Israel and knowledge to and fro have already begun to and are happening. So to me although all the prophecies have not been fulfilled in an instant they are being fulfilled. To me that indicates that the Promised One awaited has already appeared. We Baha’is believe that One to be Baha’u’llah.

We are told that His Cycle will last 500,000 years. So we still have world peace and a golden age of humanity awaiting us. A beautiful future. And what I believe humanity is experiencing now is the ‘death pangs of the old cycle or world’ and the. ‘Birth pangs of the new world struggling to be born’.


Your post was very inspiring that I you for that.

Thanks for your kind words.

I would like to ask you this question. Amongst the various prophets sent by God, are any able to bring salvation to mankind? Is the Bab able to save mankind from sin and death?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Thanks for your kind words.

I would like to ask you this question. Amongst the various prophets sent by God, are any able to bring salvation to mankind? Is the Bab able to save mankind from sin and death?

Yes of course. They are all really one and the same endowed with the Holy Spirit.

If we say there is only one sun in the sky that would be true and correct. But with regards to the names of the days they appear to be different but in reality it is the same sun appearing and reappearing.

So with the Suns of Truth. Though Their names and outward appearances and missions differ, They are all Rays of the One Holy Spirit from God so Their saving grace has the same power and potency.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you everyone for your thoughtful and insightful posts. There is a valid discussion around authorship of Isaiah and whether there are multiple authors. I’m interested in what the verses may mean for the Israelites in regards the consequences of Judah turning towards or away from God. Beyond the immediate historical circumstances there is distinct symbolism in the verses that allude to both the first chapters of Genesis with the creation of the first heaven and earth and the final chapters of the book of Revelations referring similarly to a new heaven and earth. Related symbolism is used with references to a New Jerusalem. These verses seem overly dramatic and scientifically implausible if taken literally.

From a Baha’i perspective, new heaven may refer to a New Revelation from God as brought about through a Messianic Figure such as Moses, Christ or Muhammad. So the change is as dramatic as moving between the Torah, Gospels or Quran. A new earth refers to the conditions on earth that change with the rise of a new civilisation as a result of each successive Revelation.

This particular verse from Isaiah 65:17 appears likely to allude to a time of world peace and the Revelation that brings this about. The final verse Isaiah 65:25 reads:

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

It is implausible that a New Revelation (heaven) would cause animals that are innately predators and prey to cooperate. The animals most likely represent civilisations, nations or faiths that have been enemies to find peace, cooperation and unity.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Yes of course. They are all really one and the same endowed with the Holy Spirit.

If we say there is only one sun in the sky that would be true and correct. But with regards to the names of the days they appear to be different but in reality it is the same sun appearing and reappearing.

So with the Suns of Truth. Though Their names and outward appearances and missions differ, They are all Rays of the One Holy Spirit from God so Their saving grace has the same power and potency.

I believe sin is the greatest problem facing mankind.

If it is our greatest problem, which of the 'Suns of Truth' has been able to conquer sin and death? To do so, one should be able to provide compelling evidence that:

1. It is God who is doing the saving. (Hosea 13:4)
2. Death is overcome. (Romans 5:12)
3. The saved are made holy. (Romans 5:17)
4. Eternal life is the reward for the saved. (Romans 5:21)

As inspirational as Moses, David, Siddhartha, Muhammad and the Bab were to their followers, they never claimed to be entirely without sin. It follows, in my humble opinion, that faith in any of these men will not save you from death. Being a disciple of these leaders may improve your behaviour now (or may not), but there is no evidence that these men have overcome death themselves, or are able to provide eternal life for others.

What do you think?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe sin is the greatest problem facing mankind.

If it is our greatest problem, which of the 'Suns of Truth' has been able to conquer sin and death? To do so, one should be able to provide compelling evidence that:

1. It is God who is doing the saving. (Hosea 13:4)
2. Death is overcome. (Romans 5:12)
3. The saved are made holy. (Romans 5:17)
4. Eternal life is the reward for the saved. (Romans 5:21)

As inspirational as Moses, David, Siddhartha, Muhammad and the Bab were to their followers, they never claimed to be entirely without sin. It follows, in my humble opinion, that faith in any of these men will not save you from death. Being a disciple of these leaders may improve your behaviour now (or may not), but there is no evidence that these men have overcome death themselves, or are able to provide eternal life for others.

What do you think?

Although spoken to another I wish to emphasise it is actions that speak louder than words and whatever our faith is insufficient if we do not live the life.

James 2:14-26
Matthew 25:31-46

It is through both faith and living the life we overcome sin and enable our progress in both this world and the next.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I believe sin is the greatest problem facing mankind.

If it is our greatest problem, which of the 'Suns of Truth' has been able to conquer sin and death? To do so, one should be able to provide compelling evidence that:

1. It is God who is doing the saving. (Hosea 13:4)
2. Death is overcome. (Romans 5:12)
3. The saved are made holy. (Romans 5:17)
4. Eternal life is the reward for the saved. (Romans 5:21)

As inspirational as Moses, David, Siddhartha, Muhammad and the Bab were to their followers, they never claimed to be entirely without sin. It follows, in my humble opinion, that faith in any of these men will not save you from death. Being a disciple of these leaders may improve your behaviour now (or may not), but there is no evidence that these men have overcome death themselves, or are able to provide eternal life for others.

What do you think?

I think that it is in our hands whether we choose to be saved or not because God gave us free will to choose to accept or reject Him and His ways.

If we believe and then do good works in God’s Name without hope for reward or fear of hell, in other words, with a pure heart, then I think our chance of winning God’s Goos Pleasure (being saved) increase, but the judgement whether we have done enough is entirely His as He is perfect in His judgement and will not wrong any soul who humbly serves Him.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Although spoken to another I wish to emphasise it is actions that speak louder than words and whatever our faith is insufficient if we do not live the life.

James 2:14-26
Matthew 25:31-46

It is through both faith and living the life we overcome sin and enable our progress in both this world and the next.

Does this mean that we save ourselves from sin?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Does this mean that we save ourselves from sin?
God is Just, Wise and Merciful. Ultimately it is God Himself who judges our souls and determines our progress in both this world and the next. However we have our part to play too. On this matter the sacred writings including the Hebrew Scriptures, New Testament, Quran and the Baha’i Writings are clear.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I think that it is in our hands whether we choose to be saved or not because God gave us free will to choose to accept or reject Him and His ways.

If we believe and then do good works in God’s Name without hope for reward or fear of hell, in other words, with a pure heart, then I think our chance of winning God’s Goos Pleasure (being saved) increase, but the judgement whether we have done enough is entirely His as He is perfect in His judgement and will not wrong any soul who humbly serves Him.

Well, I wish you well, my friend!

I've tried doing it 'my way' and it failed miserably. Now I don't even try, because the Spirit in me is different. Now, I let love do the leading. Not my love, but the love that is given me by the Lord Jesus.

Jesus took my sin and suffered for it. I cannot thank Him enough!

My whole faith is based on the promise that Jesus Christ made to meet my needs with His love.
 
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