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Transgender and genetics

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I go to this other site and a question had been ask about transgender genetics. The main idea if I got it right is cismen (lbw) in the womb didn't get enough estrogen and the brain as a result formed genetics of a female brain thereby the gender (genetics + environment) even though male by sex.

Between the (Gender) Lines: the Science of Transgender Identity - Science in the News

It's too long to summarize but the genetics part is near the middle. If you have time to read it through it's easier to understand the context than jumping unless you're familiar with genetic jargon, anywhere is good.

So far reading this looks at transgender from a scientific perspective so it's not discrediting other identity factors involved.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I go to this other site and a question had been ask about transgender genetics. The main idea if I got it right is cismen (lbw) in the womb didn't get enough estrogen and the brain as a result formed genetics of a female brain thereby the gender (genetics + environment) even though male by sex.

Sorry I'm confused. Do you mean trans women?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I think identity is something personal and sacred because it is the reflection of our soul, the most spiritual part of ourselves. And identity must be respected.


Nevertheless sex is something tangible. During intercourse there is an active person and a passive person.

In most cases the active person is a man and the passive person is a woman.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
That's an interesting review.

Not being up on the latest LGBT... list, I had to look up the long list of letters to see what they meant:

L - lesbian: a woman who is attracted to other women

G - gay: a man who is attracted to other men or broadly people who identify as homosexual

B - bisexual: a person who is attracted to both men and women

T - transgender: a person whose gender identity is different from the sex the doctor put down on their birth certificate

Q - queer: originally used as a hate term, some people want to reclaim the word, while others find it offensive. It can be a political statement, suggest that someone doesn't want to identify with "binaries" (e.g. male v female, homosexual v straight) or that they don't want to label themselves only by their sexual activity

Q - questioning: a person who is still exploring their sexuality or gender identity

I - intersex: a person whose body is not definitively male or female. This may be because they have chromosomes which are not XX or XY or because their genitals or reproductive organs are not considered "standard"

A - allies: a person who identifies as straight but supports people in the LGBTQQIAAP community

A - asexual: a person who is not attracted in a sexual way to people of any gender

P - pansexual: a person whose sexual attraction is not based on gender and may themselves be fluid when it comes to gender or sexual identity
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
That's an interesting review.

Not being up on the latest LGBT... list, I had to look up the long list of letters to see what they meant:

L - lesbian: a woman who is attracted to other women

G - gay: a man who is attracted to other men or broadly people who identify as homosexual

B - bisexual: a person who is attracted to both men and women

T - transgender: a person whose gender identity is different from the sex the doctor put down on their birth certificate

Q - queer: originally used as a hate term, some people want to reclaim the word, while others find it offensive. It can be a political statement, suggest that someone doesn't want to identify with "binaries" (e.g. male v female, homosexual v straight) or that they don't want to label themselves only by their sexual activity

Q - questioning: a person who is still exploring their sexuality or gender identity

I - intersex: a person whose body is not definitively male or female. This may be because they have chromosomes which are not XX or XY or because their genitals or reproductive organs are not considered "standard"

A - allies: a person who identifies as straight but supports people in the LGBTQQIAAP community

A - asexual: a person who is not attracted in a sexual way to people of any gender

P - pansexual: a person whose sexual attraction is not based on gender and may themselves be fluid when it comes to gender or sexual identity
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I go to this other site and a question had been ask about transgender genetics. The main idea if I got it right is cismen (lbw) in the womb didn't get enough estrogen and the brain as a result formed genetics of a female brain thereby the gender (genetics + environment) even though male by sex.

Between the (Gender) Lines: the Science of Transgender Identity - Science in the News

It's too long to summarize but the genetics part is near the middle. If you have time to read it through it's easier to understand the context than jumping unless you're familiar with genetic jargon, anywhere is good.

So far reading this looks at transgender from a scientific perspective so it's not discrediting other identity factors involved.


One big problem here is that there is a difference between something being genetic and it being developmental. To be genetic means that, in some way, the trait is determined by the DNA. To be developmental means that the environment of the womb can also be a factor. And the line isn't sharp.

So, in the article given, the lack of *response* to estrogen is what produces differences in the brain leading to masculinization. But this can happen either from developmental (no estrogen produced within the womb) or genetics (the DNA doesn't make a copy of a protein that binds to estrogen, or does so poorly). This is further complicated by the fact that fetuses originally 'start out female' and tend to develop male genitalia because of exposure to (and response to) androgens. But it can be the genetics of the fetus that either produce or fail to produce the androgens.

In the twin studies, the fact that twins share the same womb makes it difficult to separate the genetic component from the developmental one.

TL;DR: There is a difference between genetics and development. Both can be relevant.
 

Earthtank

Active Member
T - transgender: a person whose gender identity is different from the sex the doctor put down on their birth certificate

The doctor put down and wrote down the genetic and biological truths based of empirical and unbiased evidence not some fairy tale land he or she live in. When they visit a doctor, get in a crash, get a check up and eventually die a biological male will always be treated as a male and the same for females.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
The doctor put down and wrote down the genetic and biological truths based of empirical and unbiased evidence not some fairy tale land he or she live in. When they visit a doctor, get in a crash, get a check up and eventually die a biological male will always be treated as a male and the same for females.
No. The truth is that biologically there are genetic areas where the DNA does not match the observed genitals. And cases of XXY rather than XX or XY. The situation is extremely far from the simplistic view you presented as the OP indicated.
 

Earthtank

Active Member
No. The truth is that biologically there are genetic areas where the DNA does not match the observed genitals. And cases of XXY rather than XX or XY. The situation is extremely far from the simplistic view you presented as the OP indicated.

I can't recall the exact percentage off the top of my head but, isn't that in less than 1% of people born? And those are not called or considered transgenders, that's called Klinfelter syndrome. You seem to be confusing the 2. Almost all transgenders (I'd argue 99%) do not have Klinfelter syndrome. Klinfelter syndrome effects 1 in 13,000 births live births and only effects 1 in 1,000 if they do not receive treatment prior to puberty. Klinefelter has NOTHING to do with being trans. The % of trans people is between 1-2% so if you do all the math correctly you can see how they have nothing to do with each other.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I can't recall the exact percentage off the top of my head but, isn't that in less than 1% of people born? And those are not called or considered transgenders, that's called Klinfelter syndrome. You seem to be confusing the 2. Almost all transgenders (I'd argue 99%) do not have Klinfelter syndrome. Klinfelter syndrome effects 1 in 13,000 births live births and only effects 1 in 1,000 if they do not receive treatment prior to puberty. Klinefelter has NOTHING to do with being trans. The % of trans people is between 1-2% so if you do all the math correctly you can see how they have nothing to do with each other.
I was responding to this:

When they visit a doctor, get in a crash, get a check up and eventually die a biological male will always be treated as a male and the same for females.

You ignored biological and genetic differences in your post and made it seem simplistic.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
One big problem here is that there is a difference between something being genetic and it being developmental. To be genetic means that, in some way, the trait is determined by the DNA. To be developmental means that the environment of the womb can also be a factor. And the line isn't sharp.

So, in the article given, the lack of *response* to estrogen is what produces differences in the brain leading to masculinization. But this can happen either from developmental (no estrogen produced within the womb) or genetics (the DNA doesn't make a copy of a protein that binds to estrogen, or does so poorly). This is further complicated by the fact that fetuses originally 'start out female' and tend to develop male genitalia because of exposure to (and response to) androgens. But it can be the genetics of the fetus that either produce or fail to produce the androgens.

In the twin studies, the fact that twins share the same womb makes it difficult to separate the genetic component from the developmental one.

TL;DR: There is a difference between genetics and development. Both can be relevant.

I assume the author is putting more emphasis on development more than genetics then? (Not familiar with either)
 

Earthtank

Active Member
Sure about that?

As brain damaged as many have become in an attempt to get "woke" and be "pc" i have yet to see a doctor treat a male as a female and vice versa and for the sake of the patients I hope this never happens.At least, I hope it does not happen in my lifetime. The Medical field and treatment has no room for error and is not a place to play make believe.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
As brain damaged as many have become in an attempt to get "woke" and be "pc" i have yet to see a doctor treat a male as a female and vice versa and for the sake of the patients I hope this never happens.At least, I hope it does not happen in my lifetime. The Medical field and treatment has no room for error and is not a place to play make believe.
If the doctor looks at the chart and sees M, I hope they aren't treating them like a female.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
As brain damaged as many have become in an attempt to get "woke" and be "pc" i have yet to see a doctor treat a male as a female and vice versa and for the sake of the patients I hope this never happens.At least, I hope it does not happen in my lifetime. The Medical field and treatment has no room for error and is not a place to play make believe.

It seems to me that it is very important for the doctor to know if someone is taking hormones, for example. That *will* have a bearing on treatment in addition to the genetics.

I actually hope that doctors are not so bound to a dualistic way of thinking that they can't adapt to special cases.
 
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