HaShem & Allah: Identical, substantially the same, or substantially different?

[Terry Sampson]

1. Let’s say I meet this guy Joe from a church ...he rattles off a few well known biblical stories but they are considerably different from the ones written down in the Bible. Does that mean Joe believes in a different God than the one in the Bible? I personally don’t think it does, rather he has his own idiosyncratic take on it.
2. How about someone whose behaviour is morally questionable. ... Does that mean he never believed in HaShem? I don’t think it does.
3. Then there was this guy Simon bar Kokhba who the Jews regarded as their Messiah ... Did Simon believe in a different HaShem?
4. Perhaps the issue with Muhammad isn’t whether or not He believed in the same HaShem as the Jews. Perhaps He does but the concern maybe:
   • His portrayal of HaShem was inaccurate and distorted., even disturbing or heretical. But could He have believed in the same HaShem anyhow?
   • His morals appear questionable given his multiple wives, alleged marriage to a child and allegedly violent conduct during wartime and beyond. Does that mean He believed in a different God?
   • Perhaps He was wasn’t a Prophet at all and exaggerated or misunderstood His Station? Would that means He believed in a different God?

• I ask this because if these are the real issues at stake, there are better questions to be asking than whether or not Muhammad believed in the same God as HaShem. I would assume He does believe in HaShem but ask instead:
  1. Did Muhammad represent HaShem accurately and fairly?
  2. Was Muhammad a man of sound morals that we would expect from His Messenger of HaShem status and Founder of a religion followed by a quarter of the world’s population?
  3. Was Muhammad really a Prophet of HaShem?
• I personally believe:
  • Muhammad represents HaShem fairly and accurately,
  • he was a man of high moral standards and
  • He was a Prophet of God.
• However are these the more relevant questions?

Your position is clear: that Muhammed had high moral standards, represented HaShem fairly and accurately, and was a Prophet of God.

My response:

• For the record, I predict that this thread isn't going to end well.
• At best, I'll concede that Muhammed is Allah's prophet and may have represented Allah "fairly and accurately". But I won't concede that he is Ha-Shem's prophet and/or Messenger and that he represented Ha-Shem fairly and accurately.
• What makes this thread intriguing to me is that my beliefs, as a Gentile Christian, survive the absence of Allah, but your beliefs, as a Baha'i, depend on the interchangeability of the names for your god, Muhammed, and a non-trinitarian Jesus, because without them--if I'm not mistaken--your Baha'i beliefs cannot stand.
  
• There's a non-trinitarian Jesus that Jews might be able to recognize and make room for without worshiping him. But there's no room in Judaism or Christianity for Islam's non-trinitarian Jesus And I'd be closer to HaShem and Jesus than a Baha'i will ever be to Islam's Muhammed or a non-trinitarian Jesus.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Your position is clear: that Muhammed had high moral standards, represented HaShem fairly and accurately, and was a Prophet of God.

My response:

• For the record, I predict that this thread isn't going to end well.
• At best, I'll concede that Muhammed is Allah's prophet and may have represented Allah "fairly and accurately". But I won't concede that he is Ha-Shem's prophet and/or Messenger and that he represented Ha-Shem fairly and accurately.
• What makes this thread intriguing to me is that my beliefs, as a Gentile Christian, survive the absence of Allah, but your beliefs, as a Baha'i, depend on the interchangeability of the names for your god, Muhammed, and a non-trinitarian Jesus, because without them--if I'm not mistaken--your Baha'i beliefs cannot stand.
  
• There's a non-trinitarian Jesus that Jews might be able to recognize and make room for without worshiping him. But there's no room in Judaism or Christianity for Islam's non-trinitarian Jesus And I'd be closer to HaShem and Jesus than a Baha'i will ever be to Islam's Muhammed or a non-trinitarian Jesus.

Hi Terry,

I’m not sure what you mean by this thread is not going to end well. I think its been excellent so far and if at anytime either of us want to pull out, that’s fine too.

For the record, I consider myself much closer to Christianity than either Islam or Judaism. It is the religion I grew up with and returned to in my early 20s. Most people I know who are practising a religion are Christian and I do volunteer work at a Christian Medical Centre.

The Baha’i position on Christianity according to Shoghi Effendi:

As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.

There is no mention of the trinity in there. As far as I’m aware the Baha’i Faith neither rejects nor affirms the doctrine of the trinity. The key elements of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are an essential part of my faith but its up to each of us to make sense of it. We’re not obliged to follow a church position that was formulated in the 4th century. I have no idea as to its true value in assisting us understand the nature God.

What I do know is when any Christian doctrine is used to essentially say “I’m right and your wrong”, or “this is my God and you believe in another God”, it is a huge turn off for me personally and usually a red flag that discussion and dialogue are unlikely to go far.

So I wonder if what you’re really saying to me is I don’t believe in the God you believe in. If so, that’s fine and I’m happy to give our discussion a rest for now. Best wishes and thanks.
Adrian

 

[Terry Sampson]

I’m not sure what you mean by this thread is not going to end well.

I simply predicted that this thread is not going to end well.
It will end with fundamental, irreconcilable differences that, until given sufficient expression are fuzzy.
The irreconcilable differences necessarily exist between anyone who believes that Ha-Shem and Allah are not the same entity and anyone who believes that they are one and the same entity. I have hidden nothing. If you'll remember, I actually stated in the OP:

IMO, they are substantially different.

and:

... my point, which is that Islam's Allah and Israel's HaShem are not only NOT identical, they are substantially more different than similar."

and in my post #10:

If, at any time, our conversation is not doing what either of us wants it to do, I say that the dissatisfied person should say so and get off the bus. I don't consider this conversation to be an ecumenical exercise, much less worship or even a righteous deed. [I don't worship on-line.] For me, it's an opportunity for me to think through the resources available to me and show or construct my reasoning in support of my initial claim. I am not defending HaShem. I am nobody, ... a pile of moving dust. My reasoning will, I hope, be intelligible. I'm sure that you will let me know if and when it isn't. I reserve the right to acknowledge my errors and recant them. Moreover, I am not afraid of "irreconcilable differences", if and when they show up.

So I wonder if what you’re really saying to me is I don’t believe in the God you believe in.

Rest assured: I do not doubt that you believe in one God who has two interchangeable names: Allah and HaShem.
But, without a doubt in my mind, you and I do not believe in the same god. And that, IMO, is the thread's end that I predicted. Best wishes and thanks.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I simply predicted that this thread is not going to end well.
It will end with fundamental, irreconcilable differences that, until given sufficient expression are fuzzy.
The irreconcilable differences necessarily exist between anyone who believes that Ha-Shem and Allah are not the same entity and anyone who believes that they are one and the same entity. I have hidden nothing. If you'll remember, I actually stated in the OP:

​

and:

​

and in my post #10:​

Rest assured: I do not doubt that you believe in one God who has two interchangeable names: Allah and HaShem.
But, without a doubt in my mind, you and I do not believe in the same god. And that, IMO, is the thread's end that I predicted. Best wishes and thanks.

Hi Terry,

I agree our views are irreconcilable, but then again were either of us trying to reconcile them? We've both presented rationale for what we sincerely believe and that is sufficient. I don't see you have tried to hide anything and hope you don't feel I have either.

All the best
Adrian

 

[Terry Sampson]

I don't see you have tried to hide anything and hope you don't feel I have either.

I don't.