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Holy books and semantic changes

How do believers in a holy book makes sure that their understanding was not a result of a semantic change in the words of a language ?

ps: Not sure if i phrased this correctly, if not please clear out my mistake(s)
 
Last edited:

exchemist

Veteran Member
But where they got their theology from in the first place ?
Many religions have theologians who specialise in the the study and interpretation of the scriptures of their faith, often comparing various versions, even to the point of obsession, and trying to think through its meaning. None of this can be said to prevent errors, but at least it should avoid a lot of the potential for mistakes of the kind you refer to in the OP.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
How does believers in a holy book makes sure that their understanding was not a result of a semantic change in the words of a language ?

If one is a believer, then we accept that the God who authored the book will make sure that it is presented correctly in any language. He is the creator of language and all that exists....is he not powerful enough to ensure that mankind has the correct message? The problem is with God's adversary who is bent on twisting the scriptures through misinterpretation to distort his character and muddy the message. That is why he sends his servants to people directly to engage them and to impart that message accurately.

ps: Not sure if i phrased this correctly, if not please clear out my mistake(s)

English is not your first language? Always happy to help refine the process. It must be so difficult to communicate in another language. You are doing well.

The phrasing is correct, just minor things....like e.g.
"How does believers in a holy book..." should be "How do believers in a holy book..."

and....
"But where they got their theology from in the first place ?" Would be "Where did they get their theology in the first place". Your posts are perfectly understandable though...:)
 
Many religions have theologians who specialise in the the study and interpretation of the scriptures of their faith, often comparing various versions, even to the point of obsession, and trying to think through its meaning. None of this can be said to prevent errors, but at least it should avoid a lot of the potential for mistakes of the kind you refer to in the OP.

But like you said this method is not perfect because there could some unrecorded semantic changes just like the existence of some events that history books hasn't recorded but can be found in archaeological sites, so there isn't a perfect way ?

I think context and unity of the whole book indicates that there are no meaningful semantic errors.

Some of these semantic changes may effect the context too ?

I think you phrased it well.

Thanks !
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
How does believers in a holy book makes sure that their understanding was not a result of a semantic change in the words of a language ?

First of all, it's not an issue confined to believers. At best, one tries to achieve a reasonably accurate understanding informed by Semitic and Hebrew philology and the study of early translations. To quote Nahum Sarna, sometimes the best one can say is "Hebrew meaning uncertain."
 
If one is a believer, then we accept that the God who authored the book will make sure that it is presented correctly in any language. He is the creator of language and all that exists....is he not powerful enough to ensure that mankind has the correct message? The problem is with God's adversary who is bent on twisting the scriptures through misinterpretation to distort his character and muddy the message. That is why he sends his servants to people directly to engage them and to impart that message accurately.

If god protected his words from being corrupted ( and i believe he did ), he must have left a clear evidence that leads to the correct meanings ?

English is not your first language? Always happy to help refine the process. It must be so difficult to communicate in another language. You are doing well.

The phrasing is correct, just minor things....like e.g.
"How does believers in a holy book..." should be "How do believers in a holy book..."

and....
"But where they got their theology from in the first place ?" Would be "Where did they get their theology in the first place". Your posts are perfectly understandable though...:)

Yeah, i'm a native Arabic speaker and English is my 3rd language ( French is my second ) .
Thanks a lot for the corrections, please keep it up
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
can you elaborate more on this ?
Sure.

In Judaism, when semantics and grammar rules are discussed, the supporting evidence in these discussions comes from Oral Tradition that is passed down and collected in writing. Essentially, the language rules are part of the culture and are transmitted as part of the tradition.

I would expect that this is the same for all languages, both ancient and modern.

The first example that I thought of is: Thespians ( American Actors ) have a saying: "Break a leg". It means "Good Luck." The Thespian tradition is what maintains this rather odd euphemism.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
How does believers in a holy book makes sure that their understanding was not a result of a semantic change in the words of a language ?

There's also the problem of translation. Sometimes the various translations are pretty close and sometimes the meaning varies widely.

"Hebrew meaning uncertain."

This is also true of Quranic Arabic.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
But like you said this method is not perfect because there could some unrecorded semantic changes just like the existence of some events that history books hasn't recorded but can be found in archaeological sites, so there isn't a perfect way ?



Some of these semantic changes may effect the context too ?



Thanks !
No of course, there is no perfect way in anything. But that is why, in my opinion, it makes sense to think for yourself what makes sense, and not merely to follow slavishly what appears on the printed page without question. This is an error that fundamentalist make, I think. Also, the chance of an individual amateur misinterpreting something difficult is far greater than a body of learned people who have thought about it and discussed it a lot, perhaps over generations. This is why the established religions tend to develop a body of tradition and doctrine resulting from this process, rather than just relying on individuals reading the book each time and half understanding it.
 
First of all, it's not an issue confined to believers. At best, one tries to achieve a reasonably accurate understanding informed by Semitic and Hebrew philology and the study of early translations. To quote Nahum Sarna, sometimes the best one can say is "Hebrew meaning uncertain."

As i said earlier i guess this method is not perfect because there could some unrecorded semantic changes just like the existence of some events that history books hasn't recorded but can be found in archaeological sites, so there isn't a perfect way ?

Sure.

In Judaism, when semantics and grammar rules are discussed, the supporting evidence in these discussions comes from Oral Tradition that is passed down and collected in writing. Essentially, the language rules are part of the culture and are transmitted as part of the tradition.

I would expect that this is the same for all languages, both ancient and modern.

The first example that I thought of is: Thespians ( American Actors ) have a saying: "Break a leg". It means "Good Luck." The Thespian tradition is what maintains this rather odd euphemism.

But some traditions gets lost right ? so this not a very reliable way ?

There's also the problem of translation. Sometimes the various translations are pretty close and sometimes the meaning varies widely.

This is also true of Quranic Arabic.

Indeed the translations are really a big problem especially if some one is translating a text that has already got some unnoticed semantic changes, its like killing some one twice

No of course, there is no perfect way in anything. But that is why, in my opinion, it makes sense to think for yourself what makes sense, and not merely to follow slavishly what appears on the printed page without question. This is an error that fundamentalist make, I think. Also, the chance of an individual amateur misinterpreting something difficult is far greater than a body of learned people who have thought about it and discussed it a lot, perhaps over generations. This is why the established religions tend to develop a body of tradition and doctrine resulting from this process, rather than just relying on individuals reading the book each time and half understanding it.

Agreed, but who knows maybe one day there will be a perfect way ( thanks to science of course )
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
But like you said this method is not perfect because there could some unrecorded semantic changes just like the existence of some events that history books hasn't recorded but can be found in archaeological sites, so there isn't a perfect way ?

In fact, "not perfect" is an understatement. Note, for example, the following:

Being thus unable to reconstruct today even the hyparchetypal stages of our primary traditions, our reconstructions of the biblical archetype often seem to transcend the limits of sound philology.

The final link in the chain of evidence, however, are the Dead Sea scrolls and biblical fragments. Their main importance for or problem is, if I may quote what I have tried to show on other occasions, that they prove on the one hand that the massoretic text did basically exist (although it did not predominate) by the end of the pre-Christian era, and that on the other hand there is a wealth, much greater than ever expected, of alternative conflicting traditions in those days, which often cannot be reduced philologically to a common denominator. Once again, the rules of our cherished philological game "LXX v. MT" have been rendered obsolete.

- M.H. Goshen Gottstein. The History of the Bible-Text and Comparative Semitics: A Methodological Problem, 1957

Biblical study is easy for the dogmatist, but far more challenging for the intellectually honest. That's what keeps it fun.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
No of course, there is no perfect way in anything. But that is why, in my opinion, it makes sense to think for yourself what makes sense, and not merely to follow slavishly what appears on the printed page without question. This is an error that fundamentalist make, I think. Also, the chance of an individual amateur misinterpreting something difficult is far greater than a body of learned people who have thought about it and discussed it a lot, perhaps over generations. This is why the established religions tend to develop a body of tradition and doctrine resulting from this process, rather than just relying on individuals reading the book each time and half understanding it.

True, so long as this "body of learned people" are driven by a desire to understand the text rather than rationalize the tradition.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Indeed the translations are really a big problem especially if some one is translating a text that has already got some unnoticed semantic changes, its like killing some one twice

My favorite problem translation is currently the Quran 17:104. I noticed that even the tense is different in one translation. And "rabble" versus "mixed crowd"? Finally of great controversy to Muslims, some versions basically say that we are living in the end times due to the Quranic prophecy that the state of Israel would come into existence as a sign. Take your pick ;)

And We said to the Children of Israel after him, 'Dwell in the land; and when the promise of the world to come comes to pass, We shall bring you a rabble.'

And We said to the Children of Israel after him: "Dwell in the land, then, when the final and the last promise comes near [i.e. the Day of Resurrection or the descent of Christ ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) on the earth]. We shall bring you altogether as mixed crowd (gathered out of various nations).

And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.

Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] al together [in the Land of Israel]."
 
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