Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you

[Terry Sampson]

OK then. How about the differences and similarities between Yahweh in the Tanakh and God/Jesus in the New Testament?

LOL!

Hey. @Harel13 ! Get over here !!

 

[Firemorphic]

OK then. How about the differences and similarities between Yahweh in the Tanakh and God/Jesus in the New Testament?

Interestingly in the New Testament texts, God basically only gets lip service. With exception to the Apocalypse of St John which is merely a cryptic vision (well, when not seen as an esoteric, gnostic manifesto of the early Christian spiritual vision) with some callbacks to the vision of Ezekiel.

 

[Windwalker]

I would recommend you read the Sura 5:116 and ask yourself if there is any mention of the word trinity or three. There is none.

I did address this. "Two other gods beside me", equals three. This is Trinity. It's not four, it's not one hundred. It is specifically three.

The two Qu'ranic verses that more explicitly allude to the trinity are 4:117 mentioned in the OP and 5:72-75

They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire.

That's right. Threaten your religious competition with hell. That's not very enlightened. Did Bahaullah talk like this? I'm curious.

And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three."

And where does it spell out who this three is? That other verse mentions two other gods besides Allah, equaling three.

And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

So those who envision God as triune in nature, Allah will kill and make suffer badly? *sigh* That really pains me. It's so, heartless and power crazy. That's how I hear it anyway.

So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him.

Interesting! I notice here that "messenger" is not capitalized as glorious and all hollowed. He is referred to as "not but a messenger". In other words, "He was but a mere, simple messenger". I don't garner this supreme elevation of Jesus' status as that of one of God's specially selected oracles every 1000 years from that particular language usage. It connotes a far lesser station.

And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

And from here, I see a clear lack of understanding of Christian theology. Anyone familiar even a cursory understanding of the historical doctrine of the hypostatic union would use such a crude argument against the dual nature of Jesus. It stands out as a poor understanding of Christian theology, which is evident also in assuming that the Trinity equals Allah + Jesus + Mary.

All of what I am seeing here could be instantly refuted if there were some other references from Muhammad expounding on the Trinity doctrine elsewhere that shows a basic understanding of it. The verse provided does not speak of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It does not show an understanding of the Christian Trinity formulation.

There are no verses in the Quran that explicitly define what the trinity is in regads its three constituent elements.

Aside from the assumption that his followers believe that Mary and Jesus were considered gods. To give the benefit of the doubt however, there may have been some he was exposed to who did believe that. After all, he also referred to Jesus breathing life into clay doves after killing some boy, which was a popular myth in Egypt around that time.

I can't actually blame him for picking up on misconceptions and mythologies. It's perfectly natural.

 

[Dawnofhope]

LOL!

Hey. @Harel13 ! Get over here !!

Here is a link to assist you

God in Abrahamic religions - Wikipedia

If we are comparing the concept of God between Judaism, Christianity and Islam it would be appropriate to start with the trinity.

So belief in a trinue god?
Judaism No
Christianity Yes
Islam No

 

[Crosstian]

Here is a link to assist you

God in Abrahamic religions - Wikipedia

If we are comparing the concept of God between Judaism, Christianity and Islam it would be appropriate to start with the trinity.

So belief in a trinue god?
Judaism No
Christianity Yes
Islam No

Actually, for real Christianity it is also "No" depending on the definition. There are a "trio" of persons, not a trinity of Being, nor "one substance", nor "perfectly one superabound", etc. The Roman Catholic, "Orthodox" (EO, OO, RO, GO, etc) and generally most of evangelicalism gets this wrong.

For instance:

"... Catholic Catechism Abridged by the Rt. Rev. John Dubois, Bishop of New York. Page 5. Ques. Where is God? Ans. God is everywhere. Q. Does God see and know all things? A. Yes, he does know and see all things. Q. Has God any body? A. No; God has no body, he is a pure Spirit. ..." - The Advent Review, and Sabbath Herald, vol. 5 March 7, 1854, page 50 par. 14; J. B. Frisbie​

That is a gross distortion (spiritism) to the real tangible JEHOVAH God of scripture, who has body, parts, form, likeness, shape.

The Father is not a perfume, not an aethereal essence pervading the universe.

Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.​

He, the Father, is a "Person", even His person (Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3), of which Jesus (the Son) is the "express image" of.

As for the rest, see "His person" (Job 13:8); "form of God" (Philippians 2:6), "shape" (John 5:37), "image" (Genesis 1:26,27; Hebrews 1:3), "likeness" (Genesis 1:26,27), "being" (Acts 17:28), has a very real movable "Throne" on which He sits (Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 4-5, &c), has "the hair of his head like the pure wool" (Daniel 7:9), "whose garment was white as snow" (Daniel 7:9), has a "right hand" (Revelation 5:1; Acts 7:55-56), able to be looked upon, "to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone" (Revelation 4:2), having His own "nature" (Galatians 4:8).

See also "back parts" (Exodus 33:23), and even a "divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), see also "under his feet" (Exodus 24:20).

The angels are also called 'spirits' and "persons" ("fellows"; Hebrews 1:9), "young man" (Mark 16:5; Daniel 9:21; &c), and yet have real celestial (Heavenly) "bodies" with unfallen angelic "flesh" (1 Corinthians 15:35-58; Jude 1:7, Genesis 17-19, &c) an unfallen heavenly "nature" (Hebrews 2:16), where as we have bodies terrestrial (dust).

The Son is also a "person" (Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 27:24; Deuteronomy 27:25; &c).

So is the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; &c)

Mankind are also called 'spirits' (1 Peter 3:19; Hebrews 12:23) and yet are real tangible beings, with bodies (made of dust).

Philippians 2:6; Daniel 3:25; Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10-11; Psalms 18:9; John 5:37; Exodus 33:23,20,22; Daniel 7:9-10,13; Ezekiel 1:1,8,26-28; Acts 7:55-56; Psalms 24:1-10; John 20:17; 1 Peter 3:22; Matthew 18:10; Revelation 1:13-20, 2:1, 4:1-11, 5:1-14; Hebrews 1:13; Colossians 1:3-6; Numbers 12:8; Isaiah 45:23, 48:3; Revelation 3:16; Psalms 89:34; Psalms 104:33, 146:2; Acts 17:28; Genesis 1:26-27; Colossians 1:15; &c.

 

[Crosstian]

"... PERSONALITY OF GOD

MAN was made in the image of God. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him." Gen.i,26,27. See also chap.ix,6; 1Cor.xi,7. Those who deny the personality of God, say that "image" here does not mean physical form, but moral image, and they make this the grand starting point to prove the immortality of all men. The argument stands thus: First, man was made in God's moral image. Second, God is an immortal being. Third, therefore all men are immortal. But this mode of reasoning would also prove man omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, and thus clothe mortal man with all the attributes of the deity. Let us try it: First, man was made in God's moral image. Second, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Third, therefore, man is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. That which proves too much, proves nothing to the point, therefore the position that the image of God means his moral image, cannot be sustained. As proof that God is a person, read his own words to Moses: "And the Lord said, Behold there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock; and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by. And I will take away mine hand and thou shalt see my [2] back parts; but my face shall not be seen." Ex.xxxiii,21-23. See also chap.xxiv,9-11. Here God tells Moses that he shall see his form. To say that God made it appear to Moses that he saw his form, when he has no form, is charging God with adding to falsehood a sort of juggling deception upon his servant Moses. {1861 JW, PERGO 1.1}

But the skeptic thinks he sees a contradiction between verse 11, which says that the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, and verse 20, which states that Moses could not see his face. But let Num.xii,5-8 remove the difficulty. "And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam, and they both came forth. And he said, Hear now my words. If there be a prophet among you, I, the Lord, will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently." {1861 JW, PERGO 2.1}

The great and dreadful God came down, wrapped in a cloud of glory. This cloud could be seen, but not the face which possesses more dazzling brightness than a thousand suns. Under these circumstances Moses was permitted to draw near and converse with God face to face, or mouth to mouth, even apparently. {1861 JW, PERGO 2.2}

Says the prophet Daniel, "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hairs of his head like the pure wool; his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire." Chap.vii,9. "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him, and [3] there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom." Verses 13, 14. {1861 JW, PERGO 2.3}

Here is a sublime description of the action of two personages; viz, God the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ. Deny their personality, and there is not a distinct idea in these quotations from Daniel. In connection with this quotation read the apostle's declaration that the Son was in the express image of his Father's person. "God, who at sundry times, and in divers manners, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person." Heb.i,1-3. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.1}

We here add the testimony of Christ. "And the Father himself which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." John v,37. See also Phil.ii,6. To say that the Father has not a personal shape, seems the most pointed contradiction of plain scripture terms.

OBJECTION. - "God is a Spirit." John iv,24. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.2}

ANSWER. - Angels are also spirits [Ps.civ,4], yet those that visited Abram and Lot, lay down, ate, and took hold of Lot's hand. They were spirit beings. So is God a Spirit being. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.3}

OBJ. - God is everywhere. Proof. Ps.cxxxix,1-8. He is as much in every place as in any one place. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.4}

ANS. - 1. God is everywhere by virtue of his omniscience, as will be seen by the very words of David referred to above. Verses 1-6. "O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my down-sitting and mine uprising; thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a [4] word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thy hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It is high; I cannot attain unto it." {1861 JW, PERGO 3.5}

2. God is everywhere by virtue of his Spirit, which is his representative, and is manifested wherever he pleases, as will be seen by the very words the objector claims, referred to above. Verses 7-10. "Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me." {1861 JW, PERGO 4.1}

God is in heaven. This we are taught in the Lord's prayer. "Our Father which art in heaven." Matt.vi,9; Luke xi,2. But if God is as much in every place as he is in any one place, then heaven is also as much in every place as it is in any one place, and the idea of going to heaven is all a mistake. We are all in heaven; and the Lord's prayer, according to this foggy theology simply means, Our Father which art everywhere, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is everywhere. {1861 JW, PERGO 4.2}

Again, Bible readers have believed that Enoch and Elijah were really taken up to God in heaven. But if God and heaven be as much in every place as in any one place, this is all a mistake. They were not translated. And all that is said about the chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and the attending whirlwind to take Elijah up into heaven, was a useless parade. They only evaporated, and a misty vapor passed through the entire universe. This is all of Enoch and Elijah that the mind can possibly grasp, admitting that God and heaven are [5] no more in any one place than in every place. But it is said of Elijah that he "went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2Kings ii,11. And of Enoch it is said that he "walked with God, and was not, for God took him." Gen.v,24. {1861 JW, PERGO 4.3}

Jesus is said to be on the right hand of the Majesty on high." Heb.i,3. "So, then, after the Lord had spoken unto them he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." Mark xvi,19. But if heaven be everywhere, and God everywhere, then Christ's ascension up to heaven, at the Father's right hand, simply means that he went everywhere! He was only taken up where the cloud hid him from the gaze of his disciples, and then evaporated and went everywhere! So that instead of the lovely Jesus, so beautifully described in both Testaments, we have only a sort of essence dispersed through the entire universe. And in harmony with this rarified theology, Christ's second advent, or his return, would be the condensation of this essence to some locality, say the mount of Olivet! Christ arose from the dead with a physical form. "He is not here," said the angel, "for he is risen as he said." Matt.xxviii,6. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.1}

"And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail! And they came and held him by the feet, and they worshiped him." Verse 9. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.2}

"Behold my hands and my feet," said Jesus to those who stood in doubt of his resurrection, "that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of an honey-comb, and he took it and did eat before them." Luke xxiv,39-43. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.3} [6]

After Jesus addressed his disciples on the mount of Olivet, he was taken up from them, and a cloud received him out of their sight. "And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel, which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts i,9-11. J. W. {1861 JW, PERGO 6.1} ..."
​

 

[Crosstian]

"... IMMATERIALITY

THIS is but another name for nonentity. It is the negative of all things and beings - of all existence. There is not one particle of proof to be advanced to establish its existence. It has no way to manifest itself to any intelligence in heaven or on earth. Neither God, angels, nor men could possibly conceive of such a substance, being, or thing. It possesses no property or power by which to make itself manifest to any intelligent being in the universe. Reason and analogy never scan it, or even conceive of it. Revelation never reveals it, nor do any of our senses witness its existence. It cannot be seen, felt, heard, tasted, or smelled, even by the strongest organs, or the most acute sensibilities. It is neither liquid nor solid, soft nor hard - it can neither extend nor contract. In short, it can exert no influence whatever - it can neither act nor be acted upon. And even if it does exist, it can be of no possible use. It possesses no one, desirable property, faculty, or use, yet, strange to say, immateriality is the modern Christian's God, his anticipated heaven, his immortal self - his all! {1861 JW, PERGO 6.2}

O sectarianism! O atheism!! O annihilation!!! [7]

who can perceive the nice shades of difference between the one and the other? They seem alike, all but in name. The atheist has no God. The sectarian has a God without body or parts. Who can define the difference? For our part we do not perceive a difference of a single hair; they both claim to be the negative of all things which exist - and both are equally powerless and unknown. {1861 JW, PERGO 6.3}

The atheist has no after life, or conscious existence beyond the grave. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial, like his God; and without body or parts. Here again both are negative, and both arrive at the same point. Their faith and hope amount to the same; only it is expressed by different terms. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.1}

Again, the atheist has no heaven in eternity. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial in all its properties, and is therefore the negative of all riches and substances. Here again they are equal, and arrive at the same point. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.2}

As we do not envy them the possession of all they claim, we will now leave them in the quiet and undisturbed enjoyment of the same, and proceed to examine the portion still left for the despised materialist to enjoy. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.3}

What is God? He is material, organized intelligence, possessing both body and parts. Man is in his image. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.4}

What is Jesus Christ? He is the Son of God, and is like his Father, being "the brightness of his Father's glory, and the express image of his person." He is a material intelligence, with body, parts, and passions; possessing immortal flesh and immortal bones. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.5}

What are men? They are the offspring of Adam. They are capable of receiving intelligence and exaltation to such a degree as to be raised from the dead with a body like that of Jesus Christ, [8] and to possess immortal flesh and bones. Thus perfected, they will possess the material universe, that is, the earth, as their "everlasting inheritance." With these hopes and prospects before us, we say to the Christian world who hold to immateriality, that they are welcome to their God - their life - their heaven, and their all. They claim nothing but that which we throw away; and we claim nothing but that which they throw away. Therefore, there is no ground for quarrel or contention between us. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.6}

We choose all substance - what remains
The mystical sectarian gains;
All that each claims, each shall possess,
Nor grudge each other's happiness.

An immaterial God they choose,
For such a God we have no use;
An immaterial heaven and hell,
In such a heaven we cannot dwell.

We claim the earth, the air, and sky,
And all the starry worlds on high;
Gold, silver, ore, and precious stones,
And bodies made of flesh and bones.

Such is our hope, our heaven, our all,
When once redeemed from Adam's fall;
All things are ours, and we shall be,
The Lord's to all eternity. {1861 JW, PERGO 8.1} ..." - Personality of God, by James Springer White, 1861, pages 1.1 - 8.1​

Islam is not an "Abrahamic" religion; never was and never will be. Abraham knew nothing of Muhammad, or Islam, or qur'an.

 

[Crosstian]

There is no Trinity in the Bible, period.

It depends on how one is defining the word.

However, let's consider this word “trinity”:

Wikipedia [quick source]:

“... The word "trinity" is derived from Latin trinitas, meaning "the number three, a triad, tri". This abstract noun is formed from the adjective trinus (three each, threefold, triple),[21] as the word unitas is the abstract noun formed from unus (one).

The corresponding word in Greek is tριάς, meaning "a set of three" or "the number three".[22] The first recorded use of this Greek word in Christian theology was by Theophilus of Antioch in about the year of 170. He wrote:[23][24]

In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity [Τριάδος], of God, and His Word, and His wisdom. And the fourth is the type of man, who needs light, that so there may be God, the Word, wisdom, man.[25]​

Tertullian, a Latin theologian who wrote in the early 3rd century, is credited as being the first to use the Latin words "Trinity",[26] "person" and "substance"[27] to explain that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "tres personae, una substantia".[28] While "personae" is often translated as "persons," the Latin word personae is better understood as referring to roles as opposed to individual centers of consciousness. ...” - Trinity - Wikipedia​

Already we can see 2 varying definitions, [1] between Ignatius of Antioch [which is where they were first called “Christians” [Acts 11:26 KJB]], and [2] the later Latin Tertullian, which included “una substantia” (heretical ideology). Yet, throughout history there are further definitions of the word.

So, if the word is defined as simply "three" persons it can be true (though it is not a great word to use, as the Bible does use "Godhead", which doesn't carry the same definition as "God"), for there are the Persons / Beings of the "Father", and of the "Son" and of the "Holy Spirit" (as seen in the OT and NT), but these are not one "Being", which ideology of "one Being", is nonsensical (and why many reject it, as they ought to, it is incoherent, non-sustainable logically, and is just so much billowing mumbo-jumbo).

For instance, the Father speaks of the Son as "my fellow":

Zec_13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.​

This verse is cited in the NT by Jesus Himself, as applying to Himself:

Mat 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
Mat 26:32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.
Mat 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Mar 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
Mar 14:28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.
Mar 14:49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.
Mar 14:50 And they all forsook him, and fled.

Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.​

The Father speaks to the Son in Psalms:

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.​

This is cited in the NT by Paul as fulfilled in Jesus:

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
​

Again, the Father speaks of giving His Son:

Isa_9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
​

John in the NT refers to this in John 3:16-17.

As for the Person of the Holy Spirit/Ghost, He too, is all over the OT and NT:

Isa_48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Isa_61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;​

This (Isa 61:1) is cited in the NT by Jesus as applying to Himself:

Luk_4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,​

 

[Dawnofhope]

I did address this. "Two other gods beside me", equals three. This is Trinity. It's not four, it's not one hundred. It is specifically three.

The sura is about ‘not’ deifying historic religious figures. The problem with making it about the trinity is Mary isn't part of the Christian trinity. If you want to believe Muhammad was clueless about Christianity then go ahead.

That's right. Threaten your religious competition with hell. That's not very enlightened. Did Bahaullah talk like this? I'm curious.

The Baha'i writings as well as English versions of the Quran are freely available for anyone who wants to investigate and properly understand Baha'u'llah or Muhammad.

The Baha'i writings encourage us to study the holy books of every faith. We should go beyond literal, outer words to discover the symbolic inner meanings. At the same time Baha'u'llah askes seekers of truth to explore our own inner landscapes.

One must, then, read the book of his own self...

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Seven Valleys And the Four Valleys, Pages 50-52

Muhammad does make clear what is the path to God and that which leads us away. Unlike Christ's disciples whose ancestors had the benefit of the Tanakh, Muhammad's audience had no such education. Instead they were pagans who worshipped many gods. Muhammad taught them to be like the Christians and Jews and worship One God. He was also clear where the Christians had gone astray. However His audience was not Christians, it was tribesmen of the Arabian Peninsula.

Some of the language clearly alludes to torment and hellfire but then the Words of Christ are no different.

And where does it spell out who this three is? That other verse mentions two other gods besides Allah, equaling three.

It doesn't spell out who are the three characters of the trinity in any of the verses. The Quran is not a book about Christianity. They are seen as revealed verses from God to the audience Muhammad communicated with and beyond.

So those who envision God as triune in nature, Allah will kill and make suffer badly? *sigh* That really pains me. It's so, heartless and power crazy. That's how I hear it anyway.

Its not how I see it. One who is arrogant and corrupts religion through inserting false teachings will inevitably be faced with the error of his ways either in this world or the next. There has been atrocious behaviour and oppression of others in the name of the Christian God. Do you really thing God lets tyranny and oppression slide? Where would be the justice?

Interesting! I notice here that "messenger" is not capitalized as glorious and all hollowed. He is referred to as "not but a messenger". In other words, "He was but a mere, simple messenger". I don't garner this supreme elevation of Jesus' status as that of one of God's specially selected oracles every 1000 years from that particular language usage. It connotes a far lesser station.

As Christianity emphasised the Divine nature of the Messenger (Christ) and not just the Message, Islam emphasised the human nature of each Messenger. Despite criticism about deifying both Jesus and Mary, both characters are revered in Islam, Jesus especially as like Muhammad and Moses who brought Divine revelation through the Quran and Torah, Jesus brought the Gospel. There is no distinction between Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
Sura 3:84

And from here, I see a clear lack of understanding of Christian theology. Anyone familiar even a cursory understanding of the historical doctrine of the hypostatic union would use such a crude argument against the dual nature of Jesus. It stands out as a poor understanding of Christian theology, which is evident also in assuming that the Trinity equals Allah + Jesus + Mary.

All of what I am seeing here could be instantly refuted if there were some other references from Muhammad expounding on the Trinity doctrine elsewhere that shows a basic understanding of it. The verse provided does not speak of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It does not show an understanding of the Christian Trinity formulation.

As stated there was no reason for Muhammad to expound of the doctrine of the trinity other than to say "desist". The trinity forms no part of Islam (or Judaism).

Aside from the assumption that his followers believe that Mary and Jesus were considered gods. To give the benefit of the doubt however, there may have been some he was exposed to who did believe that. After all, he also referred to Jesus breathing life into clay doves after killing some boy, which was a popular myth in Egypt around that time.

I can't actually blame him for picking up on misconceptions and mythologies. It's perfectly natural.

There are problems with attributing Muhammad's nativity of Jesus narrative in the Surah of Maryam to the Syriac Infancy Gospel. It sounds as if you have made up your mind about Muhammad and I wish you well.

 

[Crosstian]

...It has been said that the Qur’an identifies a heretical Jesus, one who never existed in Christianity...

I have said it, and I will continue to say it, because it is truth.

Jesus said:

Mat_22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.​

What is your answer to this question? (keep in mind the question is unconcerned with the mother (for that was already known; "Mary" (Matthew 1:18; John 19:25; Acts 1:14, etc), by the very reply of the persons being spoken to, which attempt to say that the "Christ" is "the Son of David"; context

Mat 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?​

The Pharisees, even bring this up later, and Jesus was specific:

Joh_8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.​

So, the question as already asked by Jesus, Who is the father of "Christ"?

 

[wizanda]

Well then, now you have declared yourself to be the Messiah, it kinda makes Islam and Christianity irrelevant, doesn't it?

The one nail that is thought to be sticking up, is hit down; whereas the many threads that pin point the religious dilemma, and stitch it up, are left open.

Nothing is ever irrelevant, everything is to learn from.

The world needs a religion that unites all the old ideas of reality into an archive of everything we thought we know, and advance it into a modern all encompassing scientific and mathematically shown system.

The contradictions in Christianity (John, Acts, Paul, Simon) Vs Christ (Tanakh, Synoptic Gospels, Jude, James, Revelation) are useful to educate people how not to follow religion, and to recognize deliberate contradictions.

Muhammadanism needs abolishing as a cult, and replacing with the One religion of Islam: that God is One, and all religious texts books come from the One Source, where we question everything (2:285).

The progression of Islam like with the Bible is then useful, as even though they were warned don't be like the Rabbinic Jews with their made up oral traditions, Muhammadanism is all built on oral traditions of the Hadiths, and not on the original message of the Quran.

Thus in all religion it teaches us, we have to be scrupulous in exegesis to discern what the original authors intent really was, and to learn to correlate ideas from the whole, which then teaches us enlightenment from the many contrasts.

But as saying no one will take me being Messiah seriously, so I'm here before the Great Tribulation where mankind will then destroy its self, and then after we learn Oneness again in the Age to Come.

In my opinion.

 

[Crosstian]

...But as saying no one will take me being Messiah seriously...

Oh, I take you very seriously:

Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mar_13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.​

 

[Crosstian]

...The contradictions in Christianity (John, Acts, Paul, Simon) Vs Christ (Tanakh, Synoptic Gospels, Jude, James, Revelation) are useful to educate people how not to follow religion, and to recognize deliberate contradictions....

Tell you what, if you are serious, list your best 5 (top 5) so called 'contradictions' from the KJB. Let's see if they really are what you claim, or if they are not what you claim.

God's word says:

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.​

That is a characteristic of God, being perfect. To attack His word, is to attack His perfect character. It is in effect to claim God (JEHOVAH Elohiym) is contradictory.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The one nail that is thought to be sticking up, is hit down; whereas the many threads that pin point the religious dilemma, and stitch it up, are left open.

Nothing is ever irrelevant, everything is to learn from.

The world needs a religion that unites all the old ideas of reality into an archive of everything we thought we know, and advance it into a modern all encompassing scientific and mathematically shown system.

The contradictions in Christianity (John, Acts, Paul, Simon) Vs Christ (Tanakh, Synoptic Gospels, Jude, James, Revelation) are useful to educate people how not to follow religion, and to recognize deliberate contradictions.

Muhammadanism needs abolishing as a cult, and replacing with the One religion of Islam: that God is One, and all religious texts books come from the One Source, where we question everything (2:285).

The progression of Islam like with the Bible is then useful, as even though they were warned don't be like the Rabbinic Jews with their made up oral traditions, Muhammadanism is all built on oral traditions of the Hadiths, and not on the original message of the Quran.

Thus in all religion it teaches us, we have to be scrupulous in exegesis to discern what the original authors intent really was, and to learn to correlate ideas from the whole, which then teaches us enlightenment from the many contrasts.

But as saying no one will take me being Messiah seriously, so I'm here before the Great Tribulation where mankind will then destroy its self, and then after we learn Oneness again in the Age to Come.

In my opinion.

I think you have some good ideas but have to be very clear that I don’t believe you are the Messiah.

I agree the world needs a religion that builds on the traditions of the past, is in harmony with science and will unite people. I believe that religion is the Baha’i Faith. Whether or not Bahá’u’lláh’s claims to be the Promised Messiah or you are time will tell and I wish you the best.

 

[wizanda]

So, the question as already asked by Jesus, Who is the father of "Christ"?

The Father of everyone should be obvious (Luke 1:32), we are all Children of the God Most High (Hosea 1:10, Psalms 82:6).

Yehoshua (Yeshua) was King David made part of the Order of Melchizedek by Yahavah (Psalms 110), and anointed as Messiah to suffer as the Arm of the Lord (Psalms 89:19-21 = Isaiah 52:13-14 - anointed, not marred).

God (EL) begot David as an Archangel (Elohim) in Psalms 2; where it says they will murder him and argue about it, yet not read contexts, especially that he returns as Zion Elohim (Psalms 146:10, Psalms 147:12, Isaiah 52:7).

In my opinion.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Actually, for real Christianity it is also "No" depending on the definition. There are a "trio" of persons, not a trinity of Being, nor "one substance", nor "perfectly one superabound", etc. The Roman Catholic, "Orthodox" (EO, OO, RO, GO, etc) and generally most of evangelicalism gets this wrong.

For instance:

"... Catholic Catechism Abridged by the Rt. Rev. John Dubois, Bishop of New York. Page 5. Ques. Where is God? Ans. God is everywhere. Q. Does God see and know all things? A. Yes, he does know and see all things. Q. Has God any body? A. No; God has no body, he is a pure Spirit. ..." - The Advent Review, and Sabbath Herald, vol. 5 March 7, 1854, page 50 par. 14; J. B. Frisbie​

That is a gross distortion (spiritism) to the real tangible JEHOVAH God of scripture, who has body, parts, form, likeness, shape.

The Father is not a perfume, not an aethereal essence pervading the universe.

Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.​

He, the Father, is a "Person", even His person (Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3), of which Jesus (the Son) is the "express image" of.

As for the rest, see "His person" (Job 13:8); "form of God" (Philippians 2:6), "shape" (John 5:37), "image" (Genesis 1:26,27; Hebrews 1:3), "likeness" (Genesis 1:26,27), "being" (Acts 17:28), has a very real movable "Throne" on which He sits (Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 4-5, &c), has "the hair of his head like the pure wool" (Daniel 7:9), "whose garment was white as snow" (Daniel 7:9), has a "right hand" (Revelation 5:1; Acts 7:55-56), able to be looked upon, "to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone" (Revelation 4:2), having His own "nature" (Galatians 4:8).

See also "back parts" (Exodus 33:23), and even a "divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), see also "under his feet" (Exodus 24:20).

The angels are also called 'spirits' and "persons" ("fellows"; Hebrews 1:9), "young man" (Mark 16:5; Daniel 9:21; &c), and yet have real celestial (Heavenly) "bodies" with unfallen angelic "flesh" (1 Corinthians 15:35-58; Jude 1:7, Genesis 17-19, &c) an unfallen heavenly "nature" (Hebrews 2:16), where as we have bodies terrestrial (dust).

The Son is also a "person" (Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 27:24; Deuteronomy 27:25; &c).

So is the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; &c)

Mankind are also called 'spirits' (1 Peter 3:19; Hebrews 12:23) and yet are real tangible beings, with bodies (made of dust).

Philippians 2:6; Daniel 3:25; Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10-11; Psalms 18:9; John 5:37; Exodus 33:23,20,22; Daniel 7:9-10,13; Ezekiel 1:1,8,26-28; Acts 7:55-56; Psalms 24:1-10; John 20:17; 1 Peter 3:22; Matthew 18:10; Revelation 1:13-20, 2:1, 4:1-11, 5:1-14; Hebrews 1:13; Colossians 1:3-6; Numbers 12:8; Isaiah 45:23, 48:3; Revelation 3:16; Psalms 89:34; Psalms 104:33, 146:2; Acts 17:28; Genesis 1:26-27; Colossians 1:15; &c.

My point remains. Christianity has the doctrine of the trinity, Islam and Judaism doesn’t.

You are posting a lot of cut and paste material and as Muhammad said of the trinity “desist”. I enjoy having Christian fundamentals such as yourself around but you need to modify your approach. Limit the number of paragraphs you quote to no more than one or two per post. Express your points in your own words. Please delete some of your recent posts and try again.

 

[wizanda]

Whether or not Bahá’u’lláh’s claims to be the Promised Messiah or you are time will tell

Baha'u'llah prophesied of me by name in my understanding of the correlation of the texts, and since time is close to the Great Tribulation, as mankind looms close to WW3 God sent me before it, to try to fix the religious dilemma.

"How great the blessedness that awaiteth the king who will arise to aid My Cause in My kingdom, who will detach himself from all else but Me! Such a king is numbered with the companions of the Crimson Ark--the Ark which God hath prepared for the people of Bahá. All must glorify his name, must reverence his station, and aid him to unlock the cities with the keys of My Name (Zion), the omnipotent Protector of all that inhabit the visible and invisible kingdoms. Such a king is the very eye of mankind, the luminous ornament on the brow of creation, the fountainhead of blessings unto the whole world. Offer up, O people of Bahá, your substance, nay your very lives, for his assistance." - (Bahá'u'lláh, Kitáb-i-Aqdas, 1873)

Revelation 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar (Sandalphon) in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God (Zion - Psalms 146:10, Psalms 147:12, Isaiah 52:7), the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name (Sananda).

All the messengers of the One Source are on the same side, the religious people who choose labels are against us; do you get the outcome of the Final Battle?

Like Armageddon means "a mountain of people gathered together"; it is possible we intellectually fix the ideas, yet only if we all work together - Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 71-74

As a Baha'i you are meant to be marketing me to people, it makes no sense me sitting here arguing on my own I've been sent from Heaven, and have known it since birth.

In my opinion.

 

[wizanda]

Oh, I take you very seriously:

Matthew 25:1-13, Revelation 16:15-16, Revelation 3:3, Zechariah 12:8-10, Daniel 12:1... Take the Bible seriously.

Lets try to keep the topic contextual.

The Quran is teaching the Messiah is no more than a man like Adam (Quran 3:58-60).

The Bible teaches King David was Yehoshua, and both teach the Word was made flesh.

Yet claiming a man is God is the problem, and thus we all need to take it seriously; as God the Source of reality will cleanse all iniquity at its coming, according to many of the texts.

list your best 5 (top 5) so called 'contradictions' from the KJB.

There are links to individual threads (John, Paul, and Simon) to discuss each of the contradictions, and I will list all answers scripturally for anyone to gain understanding (Revelation 3:18).

In my opinion.

 

[Crosstian]

...You are posting a lot of cut and paste material and as Muhammad said of the trinity “desist”. I enjoy having Christian fundamentals such as yourself around but you need to modify your approach. Limit the number of paragraphs you quote to no more than one or two per post. Express your points in your own words. Please delete some of your recent posts and try again.

No thanks. I will continue as I have been. (btw, all of what I post is my own words, except what is given in citation, told you that already, but you (as others) refuse to listen)

 

[Crosstian]

...There are links to individual threads......

That's what I thought, unwilling to engage point to point, and simply expect me to read through page after page of nonsense, to only have you still not engage. This thread is wasting time.