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What will the Second Coming of Christ look like?

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Baha’u’llah corrected this so as He is a Manifestation of God we accept His Word.

The explanation is more than a right or wrong answer.

It is a quite detailed explanation, so takes a bit of research. I think Adrian did a fair bit of research on this and there are RF discussions on this matter.

Search RF

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One can find answers in a post 17000 answers long :)

Stay happy, be well, Regards Tony
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
The explanation is more than a right or wrong answer.

It is a quite detailed explanation, so takes a bit of research. I think Adrian did a fair bit of research on this and there are RF discussions on this matter.

Search RF

Search Results | Religious Forums

One can find answers in a post 17000 answers long :)

Stay happy, be well, Regards Tony

The Guardian’s statement is sufficient for me although it can be explained in more depth for others.


“As to the question raised by the Racine Assembly in connection with Bahá’u’lláh’s statement in the ‘Gleanings’ concerning the sacrifice of Ishmael: Although this statement does not agree with that made in the Bible, Genesis 22:9, the friends should unhesitatingly, and for reasons that are only too obvious, give precedence to the sayings of Bahá’u’lláh which, it should be pointed out, are fully corroborated by the Qur’an,

Excerpt from
Lights of Guidance
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Guardian’s statement is sufficient for me although it can be explained in more depth for others.


“As to the question raised by the Racine Assembly in connection with Bahá’u’lláh’s statement in the ‘Gleanings’ concerning the sacrifice of Ishmael: Although this statement does not agree with that made in the Bible, Genesis 22:9, the friends should unhesitatingly, and for reasons that are only too obvious, give precedence to the sayings of Bahá’u’lláh which, it should be pointed out, are fully corroborated by the Qur’an,

Excerpt from
Lights of Guidance

There is a Tablet by Baha'u'llah which a provisional translation is provided, it is from that tablet the further explanations have been given in posts past.

Enjoy :)

Tablet to Hájí Mírzá Kamálu'd-Dín

"....It is now, therefore, established and confirmed that the station of ‘Sacrifice of God’ was, according to past Books, given to Isaac by Abraham and that very same station is, according to Divine Revelation, Ishmael’s in the Qur’ánic Dispensation." Baha'u'llah (provisional Translation)

Baha'u'llah also quoted Ishmael as the sacrifice.

Regards Tony
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The messiah IS a human being.

Then reason has it, that the Human being will part this earth and thus the kingdom spoken about is not fully in this world. The Kingdom is established in this world.

Gods Kingdom on earth, as it is in heaven then becomes the way we accept life and how we become what is spiritual in soul and mind in acceptance of God's Messengers.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Then Baha’i confesses that Jews need to follow the 613 mitzvot?

I see Baha'u'llah offered that the Covenant compels the Jews to accept all God's Messengers and not to reject any God given covenant. I see that until they acheive that, they would not have been faithful to what it is to be a Jew.

To me 613 mitzvot is just another great distraction and from what I have read, it appears that doctrine surfaced and was set up in the 3rd Century CE, which interestingly coincides with the establishment of many Christian Doctrines. It appears the battle between Jewish and Christian understandings continued far after the crucifixion of Jesus the Christ, each tried to trump the others with doctrine built by man.

But that is faith and life, that is the way I see it.

Regards Tony
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Of course the Messiah has come, I believe Elijah (John the Baptist) announced his coming.
If the messiah had already come, he would have fulfilled all the prophecies, including:
1. Usher in an era of peace between all the nations.
2. Bring all the Jews back to the land of Israel.
3. Rule Israel from Jerusalem (IOW be David).
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
So is a covenant with God everlasting, especially when God is the one telling the Jews it is everlasting? Therefore, Jews should be following the Laws God gave them? No, Baha'i teach that new "social" laws are put in place with each new messenger and the old laws are no longer applicable. So I'm still wondering what were the new "social" laws that Jesus brought with his new covenant?
So then, the God of Baha’i is a liar, since he promises an everlasting covenant but doesn’t deliver.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Then reason has it, that the Human being will part this earth and thus the kingdom spoken about is not fully in this world. The Kingdom is established in this world.

Gods Kingdom on earth, as it is in heaven then becomes the way we accept life and how we become what is spiritual in soul and mind in acceptance of God's Messengers.

Regards Tony
Hi Tony. If you read the Tanakh, all the descriptions of the messianic age take place in this world. A heavenly kingdom is just a trick to get around the fact that the kingdom is not yet come.
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I see Baha'u'llah offered that the Covenant compels the Jews to accept all God's Messengers and not to reject any God given covenant. I see that until they acheive that, they would not have been faithful to what it is to be a Jew.

To me 613 mitzvot is just another great distraction and from what I have read, it appears that doctrine surfaced and was set up in the 3rd Century CE, which interestingly coincides with the establishment of many Christian Doctrines. It appears the battle between Jewish and Christian understandings continued far after the crucifixion of Jesus the Christ, each tried to trump the others with doctrine built by man.

But that is faith and life, that is the way I see it.

Regards Tony
So apparently your answer is that God lied and promised an everlasting covenant that he didn’t deliver.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So apparently your answer is that God lied and promised an everlasting covenant that he didn’t deliver.

Ha ha, you keep putting your ideas down as my intended thoughts and answer.

I am happy for you to see it how you wish, you can rest in peace and know you will find naught but peace with all Baha'i.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Guardian’s statement is sufficient for me although it can be explained in more depth for others.


“As to the question raised by the Racine Assembly in connection with Bahá’u’lláh’s statement in the ‘Gleanings’ concerning the sacrifice of Ishmael: Although this statement does not agree with that made in the Bible, Genesis 22:9, the friends should unhesitatingly, and for reasons that are only too obvious, give precedence to the sayings of Bahá’u’lláh which, it should be pointed out, are fully corroborated by the Qur’an,

Excerpt from
Lights of Guidance
Genesis 21:9-14 Sarah... said to Abraham, “Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac....” God said to him... Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned... Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the Desert of Beersheba.
So Hagar and Ishmael are gone.

Genesis 22:2 God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son,
18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”
19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.​
So would any of us know anything about Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael if it weren't in the Hebrew Bible? How many Baha'is take the Bible as literal anyway? Yet in this case they do take it literal, literally wrong?

Jesus and Christian writers don't correct the alleged error? They go along with it? But this is the only time that Scribes changed the Bible? And, when this change took place, all the priests and scribes were in on it? To accomplish what? And, since the scrolls were read all the time, no one mentioned that the story had changed?

But what a change, the whole genealogy from Isaac to Jacob and al the sons of Israel aren't all they were cracked up to be. I thought so. Because if we take the genealogy the other way, towards Noah and on to Adam, who really believes those people and those things really happened? I think even Baha'is would say those stories were, their favorite word, "symbolic" Especially Adam, probably Noah and at what point would Baha'is start that the people and events in the Bible were real and historically accurate? My guess is never.

But really, God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? And Abraham believed that voice was really God talking to him? Maybe it is only symbolic. I agree with the Baha'is. A symbolic God, told a symbolic guy named Abraham to symbolically sacrifice his symbolic son. And it is so important to prove which symbolic son if was? Or, it is all real and the Bible is accurate and the Baha'is are wrong. I'm good either way.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If the messiah had already come, he would have fulfilled all the prophecies, including:
1. Usher in an era of peace between all the nations.
2. Bring all the Jews back to the land of Israel.
3. Rule Israel from Jerusalem (IOW be David).

It can be seen that..... 1 is confirmed, 2 is confirmed and 3 is confirmed.

Peace has been ushered in and with that all the requirements have given.

I see God allows all people to choose.

The return of the Jews started way back in 1844 with the Edict of Toleration, that opened that door for the return to which those that choose to do so have done.

I see God does not compel us to live our life in any way or undertake any actions we have not chosen, just gives us the means to achieve what God has offered.

The Spiritual rule of the Messiah is established, Mt Carmel has indeed seen the 'Glory of the Lord' and the Laws go out from Zion, the Arc of the covenant is established.

I see God does not compel anyone to see what God has sent, offered and established.

We have been down that path before, but when I read such posts my heart is sad for all those that long for these things to be fulfilled, when what they so long for already has. Thus it will become a longing that can not be seen, unless one uses a different frame of reference.

(RF8 Disclaimer - In my opinion)

All the best, Regards Tony
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Ha ha, you keep putting your ideas down as my intended thoughts and answer.

I am happy for you to see it how you wish, you can rest in peace and know you will find naught but peace with all Baha'i.

Regards Tony
I asked point blank if baha'i affirmed that the Jewish covenant binding us to the 613 laws were still in affect. You did not confirm this. You gave all sorts of answer but no confirmation. That makes it look like you are saying that no, God did not keep his covenant, but you are simply embarrassed to state it in such terms. Now, if I got you wrong, please let me know. Because really there are only two answers here: either God kept the covenant and Jews must keep the 613, or God broke the covenant, meaning he lied when he said it was everlasting. So take your pick.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It can be seen that..... 1 is confirmed, 2 is confirmed and 3 is confirmed.

Peace has been ushered in and with that all the requirements have given.

I see God allows all people to choose.

The return of the Jews started way back in 1844 with the Edict of Toleration, that opened that door for the return to which those that choose to do so have done.

I see God does not compel us to live our life in any way or undertake any actions we have not chosen, just gives us the means to achieve what God has offered.

The Spiritual rule of the Messiah is established, Mt Carmel has indeed seen the 'Glory of the Lord' and the Laws go out from Zion, the Arc of the covenant is established.

I see God does not compel anyone to see what God has sent, offered and established.

We have been down that path before, but when I read such posts my heart is sad for all those that long for these things to be fulfilled, when what they so long for already has. Thus it will become a longing that can not be seen, unless one uses a different frame of reference.

(RF8 Disclaimer - In my opinion)

All the best, Regards Tony
#1 is confirmed? Less than a century ago the US dropped the atomic bomb!!!! We had an INCREASE in international warfare with two world wars. In the beginning of this century, we have already had the Iraq war. To say that there is peace between the nations is to insult my intelligence.

#2 is confirmed? Please Tony, half the Jews in the world still live outside Israel. Until we all live in Israel, #2 is not fulfilled.

#3 is confirmed? Only if you think Netanyahu is the Messiah. I certainly don't.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
If the messiah had already come, he would have fulfilled all the prophecies, including:
1. Usher in an era of peace between all the nations.
2. Bring all the Jews back to the land of Israel.
3. Rule Israel from Jerusalem (IOW be David).

I have tried to point out that these things are not instantaneous overnight magical or quick fixes but are to occur over a realistic period, the Dispensation of the Promised Messiah which we are in now. In this Dispensation the process towards world peace has begun with the formation of the League of Nations then the UN which was a teaching of the Promised Messiah that humanity has not yet fully established.

The Promised Messiah when He appeared initiated the ‘process’ of world peace by calling for the nations rulers to come together. Note how this call was made before the League of Nations or UN were formed so peace has been unfolding. The prophecy is being fulfilled.

The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men.”


The Jews were permitted officially to return to Israel in 1844 and have since established the nation of Israel. It is self evident that very substantial portions of this prophecy have been fulfilled. And more Jews are returning every day. This prophecy is being fulfilled.

The Messiah is a heavenly not an earthly or political king and thus His rule is of a spiritual kingdom over the hearts of men. But His law is going out from Israel if you look with discerning eyes and become fully aware of what has actually transpired.

The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation.

And the Messiah brought not only a kingdom on earth, a spiritually based kingdom, but He also brought laws and a Holy Book.

The Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David.”

“The Breath hath been wafted, and the Breeze hath blown, and from Zion hath appeared that which was hidden, and from Jerusalem is heard the Voice of God, the One, the Incomparable, the Omniscient.”


“Peruse that which Isaiah hath spoken in His Book. He saith: 'Get thee up into the high mountain, O Zion, that bringest good tidings; lift up thy voice with strength, O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings. Lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah: "Behold your God! Behold the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him."' This Day all the signs have appeared. A great City hath descended from heaven, and Zion trembleth and exulteth with joy at the Revelation of God, for it hath heard the Voice of God on every side.”

O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me.

And this... from Isaiah

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

Please kindly note ...... shall come to pass not instantly come to pass overnight or in a given timeframe. Isaiah i am absolutely convinced is speaking of a process not an event.

And what is established at the top of the mountain that all nations are flowing to it? Have you had a really close look? Have you looked at what is at the top of Mt Carmel the Vineyard of God? And laws flow from the top of that mountain to all the world from God’s House. And that House according to Isaiah shall be a House of Justice.

The signs to me are so, so clear and overwhelming that the Promised Messiah has come that i am filled with joy.

The wolf and the lamb is another sign He has come. Processes of reconciliation have begun all over the world since He appeared gaining momentum with each passing day.

Setbacks will occur but reconciliation has been set in motion between races, nations and religions. This is undeniable and indisputable. The processes are fully underway but not completed so world peace and full reconciliation have not yet occurred just like a child does not become an adult except gradually. All the signs are here. Interfaith, multiculturalism and world solidarity all point to a new world community.

The pitfall is to say that the coming of the Messiah must happen according to our expectations and we will accept no other possibility than our own viewpoint. And are we humans perfect in our judgements? Might He have come and caught us unawares?impossible that He could have appeared and we didn’t witness it? I personally put such confidence only in God not in myself or any other person for we make mistakes. God does not.

Shalom.











 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I have tried to point out that these things are not instantaneous overnight magical or quick fixes but are to occur over a realistic period, the Dispensation of the Promised Messiah which we are in now. In this Dispensation the process towards world peace has begun with the formation of the League of Nations then the UN which was a teaching of the Promised Messiah that humanity has not yet fully established.

The Promised Messiah when He appeared initiated the ‘process’ of world peace by calling for the nations rulers to come together. Note how this call was made before the League of Nations or UN were formed so peace has been unfolding. The prophecy is being fulfilled.

The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men.”


The Jews were permitted officially to return to Israel in 1844 and have since established the nation of Israel. It is self evident that very substantial portions of this prophecy have been fulfilled. And more Jews are returning every day. This prophecy is being fulfilled.

The Messiah is a heavenly not an earthly or political king and thus His rule is of a spiritual kingdom over the hearts of men. But His law is going out from Israel if you look with discerning eyes and become fully aware of what has actually transpired.

The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation.

And the Messiah brought not only a kingdom on earth, a spiritually based kingdom, but He also brought laws and a Holy Book.

The Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David.”

“The Breath hath been wafted, and the Breeze hath blown, and from Zion hath appeared that which was hidden, and from Jerusalem is heard the Voice of God, the One, the Incomparable, the Omniscient.”


“Peruse that which Isaiah hath spoken in His Book. He saith: 'Get thee up into the high mountain, O Zion, that bringest good tidings; lift up thy voice with strength, O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings. Lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah: "Behold your God! Behold the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him."' This Day all the signs have appeared. A great City hath descended from heaven, and Zion trembleth and exulteth with joy at the Revelation of God, for it hath heard the Voice of God on every side.”

O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me.

And this... from Isaiah

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

Please kindly note ...... shall come to pass not instantly come to pass overnight or in a given timeframe. Isaiah i am absolutely convinced is speaking of a process not an event.

And what is established at the top of the mountain that all nations are flowing to it? Have you had a really close look? Have you looked at what is at the top of Mt Carmel the Vineyard of God? And laws flow from the top of that mountain to all the world from God’s House. And that House according to Isaiah shall be a House of Justice.

The signs to me are so, so clear and overwhelming that the Promised Messiah has come that i am filled with joy.

The wolf and the lamb is another sign He has come. Processes of reconciliation have begun all over the world since He appeared gaining momentum with each passing day.

Setbacks will occur but reconciliation has been set in motion between races, nations and religions. This is undeniable and indisputable. The processes are fully underway but not completed so world peace and full reconciliation have not yet occurred just like a child does not become an adult except gradually. All the signs are here. Interfaith, multiculturalism and world solidarity all point to a new world community.

The pitfall is to say that the coming of the Messiah must happen according to our expectations and we will accept no other possibility than our own viewpoint. And are we humans perfect in our judgements? Might He have come and caught us unawares?impossible that He could have appeared and we didn’t witness it? I personally put such confidence only in God not in myself or any other person for we make mistakes. God does not.

Shalom.
Thank you for your well worded and thoughtful reply.

I'm making just one point, and I'm a little frustrated why you can't see it.

It doesn't matter if things are in the process or not. Prophecy is not fulfilled until it is fulfilled. The messiah is not here unless it is fulfilled. You can't be working on getting pregnant and already telling everyone you have a son. It's just not honest.


Now, on a second note, which I actually was not talking about before you, I disagree that the messiah is a heavenly kind of thing. That is simply not in the Tanakh. The Christians invented something completely new, and Baha'i took their ball and ran with it. We Jews will stick with the authentic original--an earthly king for a messianic era here on earth.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
In Revelation it says satan will be chained up for a thousand years which gives plenty of time for all these things to happen like a catastrophe and world peace and universal acceptance of Baha’u’llah.
Rev. 20:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war...
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.
20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Rev. 21:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

How do Baha'is explain these verses? Who is Satan? Who is the beast? Baha'is have already committed themselves to saying the beasts and the dragons are the Umayyads and Abbasids, and that the "number of the beast" is a date, 661AD. But here it is definitely called only the "mark" of the beast, so no way can it be interpreted as a date.

So whoever you say Satan is... that is what is thrown into an abyss for a 1000 years, then let out and then destroyed. But, the problem for Baha'is is that you've already committed yourselves to interpreting days into years and years first into days then those days into the amount of years prophesied. Does that still hold true with this prophecy? Then last problem, the name Jesus is mentioned again. Giving Christians a very good reason to think that the return is not anybody but Jesus whom they believe is alive.
 
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