Gender segregation and the Qur'an?

[nawab_saifudeen]

Dear Limo

Great Reply, segregation is still there in our modern day societies also Washrooms, public baths, womens clubs. A wisdom of segregation in the place of worship is to focus on worship and God almighty. Not on things what your suppose to leave outside the place of worship otherwise whats the difference between a place place of worship and just a normal place

 

[firedragon]

Can gender segeragation related laws and rules be derived from the Qur'an alone?

Not unless you work really really hard to do a lot of inference.

Thus, the short answer is no. I hope thats not too abrupt.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Thank you. I have seen documentaries and read religious literature where women not allowed in certain religious buildings or have to be behind men or are told that they should just be quiet and let men speak or should do what men tell them to do. I'm sure that it isn't all religious beliefs but it does exist.

Though it is an old thread but I cannot resist the temptation of clarifying some thing. See Temples where men cannot enter

What I mean to say is that there are ancient local flavors. Some places women are restricted, other places men are restricted.

 

[Aupmanyav]

As for Islam, I just want to know one thing. Why were wives of Mohammad restricted from marrying after his death? They were many, and they were young and beautiful.

 

[Wasp]

As for Islam, I just want to know one thing. Why were wives of Mohammad restricted from marrying after his death? They were many, and they were young and beautiful.

Young and beautiful? How do you know?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Young and beautiful? How do you know?

History says that. Most of these women were around 25 years of age at the time of Mohammad's death. And Mohammad chose the most beautiful of the captured women.

Aishah bint Abī Bakr: She was born in 613/4. At the time of Mohammad's death, she must not have been more than 20 year old.
Hafsa bint Umar and Zaynab bint Khuzayma were close to Aishah's age and therefore, young..
Safiyya bint Huyayy: Safiyya's father and husband were killed in the Battle of Khyber. According to Muhammad al-Bukhari, Muhammad stayed for three days between Khaybar and Medina, where he consummated his marriage to Safiyya without waiting for the period of iddat. Muhammad once said to his wife that if other women insulted her for her "Jewish heritage" and were jealous because of her beauty.
Juwayriyya bint al-Harith: Aishah describes her saying, "She was a pleasant woman. No one saw her except he became captivated by her. While the Messenger of Allah was when suddenly Juwayriyah entered asking him concerning her ransom agreement (with Thabit). By Allah, as soon as I saw her, I disliked her entering the place of Messenger of Allah for I knew that he would see what I saw in her".
Rayhana bint Zayd: Rayhana died young, 11 years after Muhammad's hajj, and was buried in Jannat al-Baqi cemetery. If she was young even after 11 years of Mohammad's death, then she would have been even younger at the time of her marriage (in 627).
Zaynab bint Jahsh: "Zaynab had dressed in haste when she was told 'the Messenger of God is at the door.' She jumped up in haste and excited the admiration of the Messenger of God, so that he turned away murmuring something that could scarcely be understood. However, he did say overtly: 'Glory be to God the Almighty! Glory be to God, who causes the hearts to turn!'" Zaynab told Zayd about this, and he offered to divorce her, but Muhammad told him to keep her. The story laid much stress on Zaynab's perceived beauty."
Maria al-Qibtiyya: She is reported to have been beautiful. Her sister Sīrīn was sent to Hassān b. Thābit.

The vertical lines in the graph indicate, in chronological order, the start of prophethood, the Hijra, and the Battle of Badr. Mohammad married 10 women in the last 8 years of his life (624-32) between the age of 54 and 62.

You see, Wasp. This is the age of internet. Nothing much can be kept hidden.

 

[Limo]

History says that. Most of these women were around 25 years of age at the time of Mohammad's death. And Mohammad chose the most beautiful of the captured women.

Aishah bint Abī Bakr: She was born in 613/4. At the time of Mohammad's death, she must not have been more than 20 year old.
Hafsa bint Umar and Zaynab bint Khuzayma were close to Aishah's age and therefore, young..
Safiyya bint Huyayy: Safiyya's father and husband were killed in the Battle of Khyber. According to Muhammad al-Bukhari, Muhammad stayed for three days between Khaybar and Medina, where he consummated his marriage to Safiyya without waiting for the period of iddat. Muhammad once said to his wife that if other women insulted her for her "Jewish heritage" and were jealous because of her beauty.
Juwayriyya bint al-Harith: Aishah describes her saying, "She was a pleasant woman. No one saw her except he became captivated by her. While the Messenger of Allah was when suddenly Juwayriyah entered asking him concerning her ransom agreement (with Thabit). By Allah, as soon as I saw her, I disliked her entering the place of Messenger of Allah for I knew that he would see what I saw in her".
Rayhana bint Zayd: Rayhana died young, 11 years after Muhammad's hajj, and was buried in Jannat al-Baqi cemetery. If she was young even after 11 years of Mohammad's death, then she would have been even younger at the time of her marriage (in 627).
Zaynab bint Jahsh: "Zaynab had dressed in haste when she was told 'the Messenger of God is at the door.' She jumped up in haste and excited the admiration of the Messenger of God, so that he turned away murmuring something that could scarcely be understood. However, he did say overtly: 'Glory be to God the Almighty! Glory be to God, who causes the hearts to turn!'" Zaynab told Zayd about this, and he offered to divorce her, but Muhammad told him to keep her. The story laid much stress on Zaynab's perceived beauty."
Maria al-Qibtiyya: She is reported to have been beautiful. Her sister Sīrīn was sent to Hassān b. Thābit.

The vertical lines in the graph indicate, in chronological order, the start of prophethood, the Hijra, and the Battle of Badr. Mohammad married 10 women in the last 8 years of his life (624-32) between the age of 54 and 62.

You see, Wasp. This is the age of internet. Nothing much can be kept hidden.

Nothing is hidden but choose accurate information.
The Prophet Mohamed peace be upon him is the only person all over the history who has his personal details of his life is published. He taught us everything, everything you can imagine.

Nothing here to defend on, Everything he did was correct.

First of all, what's the problem for the Prophet Mohamed to marry beautiful and young women. What do you expect to marry ugly and old women? What's the problem to marry the most admired women at that time?
Do you marry or make friendship with ugly and elder woman ?

It's a great honor for any Moslem woman to be the Prophet's husband.
After first and second wives, the Prophet Mohamed married in one of the following circumstances:

• To honor close companions, in the same time , the marry offer came from father of the woman case of Aisha bent Aby Bakr and Hfasa bent Omar ibn Elkhatab
• To honor Daughter/Wife of honored women who were from leaders family Safiyya bint Huyayy who was chief of Khaibar and Juwayriyya bint al-Harith
• Zaynab bint Jahsh was a rich and honored woman, admired woman
  
• Maria Al-Qitia was a slave woman was given by Egypt's king
• And others

You've shared forged stories, Let me correct some:

• Safiyya bint Huyayy was slaved in war on Khaibar, No Iddet period (3 month after divorce) for slave women. Safiyya was captured in war for a companion. The companion came to the Prophet and told him, she deserve be with no one except for the Prophet
  
• Juwayriyya bint al-Harith also was captured in war, similar case like Safiyya bint Huyayy. Also, after the Prophet married here, he has given back all money and properties to her tribe again and released prisoners of war. So, he tribe was very happy with this gift and all accepted Islam
  
• Zaynab bint Jahsh, the story you shared is forged. Zaynab was married with the Prophet's adopted son Usama ibn Zayed who was x-slave but Zainab was honored and rich woman. Their marriage has come to end because of many problems. The Prophet was told by Angel Gaprial that he'll marry her but Prophet was trying to fix the relationship but Zayed has divorced her at the end then the Prophet has married her.

Your problem and all Christians is that: Do you think by using your values (we're not recognizing it at all), you embrace us ?
We're our own values which are much nobles than yours. Whatever you see as shameful behavior we see as proud and honor... and vice versa
Prophet Mohamed peace be upon him was human, prophet, leader, chief,,, he did everything like human and leader under the boundaries of Islam Shariaa.
See, nothing to be hidden, I can tell you more than what you know but excluding forged stories.
Truth is beautiful.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am not questioning Muhammad's (PUBH) late marriages to beautiful and young women. Allah granted him that beyond the limit of four that He put on others after having him spend most part of his life with a woman who was 25 years older than him. I am questioning why remarriage of these young and beautiful women was prohibited after Mohammad's (PUBH) death?

As for Zaynab bint Jahsh, I was not there at that time. I am writing what your people have reported.
Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari. Tarikh al-Rusul wa'l-Muluk. Translated by Landau-Tasseron, E. (1998). Volume 39: Biographies of the Prophet's Companions and Their Successors. Albany: State University of New York Press.
Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari. Tarikh al-Rasul wa’l-Muluk. Translated by Fishbein, M. (1997). Volume 8: The Victory of Islam. Albany: State University of New York Press.

Right, no iddat period for slaves, even if their husbands, fathers and brothers were killed the very same day. That is how IS treated Shi, Yazidis, Kurds, Christians, Druze, etc. The world has not changed much. Nice values you derive from your book and your prophet.

 

[Limo]

I am not questioning Muhammad's (PUBH) late marriages to beautiful and young women. Allah granted him that beyond the limit of four that He put on others after having him spend most part of his life with a woman who was 25 years older than him. I am questioning why remarriage of these young and beautiful women was prohibited after Mohammad's (PUBH) death?

As for Zaynab bint Jahsh, I was not there at that time. I am writing what your people have reported.
Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari. Tarikh al-Rusul wa'l-Muluk. Translated by Landau-Tasseron, E. (1998). Volume 39: Biographies of the Prophet's Companions and Their Successors. Albany: State University of New York Press.
Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari. Tarikh al-Rasul wa’l-Muluk. Translated by Fishbein, M. (1997). Volume 8: The Victory of Islam. Albany: State University of New York Press.

Right, no iddat period for slaves, even if their husbands, fathers and brothers were killed the very same day. That is how IS treated Shi, Yazidis, Kurds, Christians, Druze, etc. The world has not changed much. Nice values you derive from your book and your prophet.

Islamic Shariaa (law) is from Allah. We should obay regardless if we know the reasons or not.
Allah said that Prophet Mohamed's wives are mothers for all believers. So, marry mother is Haram in Islam.
That's it no other reasons.
Some schoolars say, It's an honor for Prophet.

Taking slaves(men, women, children) is a war tradition before Islam and was there after Islam.
Islam has given rules that defines how to deal with slaves.
FYI, in Islam if you've a slave woman, Moslem shall never touch her without her permission,. If he does, it's considered adultary.
Yes, these our values that I'm very proud
What about yours?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Our traditions are that we should always care and respect combatants (other than when we are fighting) and non combatants. Women and children are never to be touched, and we did not have the tradition of having slaves. The defeated and captured soldiers would not be slaves but prisoners, to be treated as equals. All respect to be given to a dead soldier, no dishonoring of a dead soldier. No destruction of property or agriculture which is not involved in war. And these traditions are older than 2,000 years, not that they were adopted after Geneva Convention. These we say are eternal (Sanātan) values ('Dharma'). For the theist Hindu (most are that only, I am more of an exception), anyone doing otherwise will be punished with hell.

 

[sooda]

Can gender segeragation related laws and rules be derived from the Qur'an alone?

Purdah is older than the Koran and was Persian in origin..

 

[dybmh]

we did not have the tradition of having slaves.

Respectful question: The caste system?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Nice question, not disrespectful in any way. I hope what I write is helpful in explaining caste. In my interaction with various castes in my childhood (in
Rajasthan), there was not even the slightest shade of disrespect even with manual scavengers. There are regions where the caste conflicts were bad.

Indian society was very compartmentalized. I generally illustrate it with a stained-glass window, together but still separate. In olden days, people followed the profession of their family. What would we do if we did not have potters, carpenters, ironsmiths, barbers, tailors, etc.? Therefore, there was a need-based harmony in a village in spite of caste divisions. Caste was never slavery. Castes do not exist only because of profession. They are also based on tribe, region, religious affiliations and traditions. Of course, the lower castes had to suffer what we term as 'begaar', that is work on king's order with minimum payment or even none. But this was for short periods and in cases of emergency.

The compartmentalization still exists, but discrimination and abuse is now prohibited by pain of imprisonment (five-years) and fines. In addition, India has the world's strongest 'affirmative program' for lower castes covering all aspects of life. The lower castes (the lowest getting the most) have reservations in education, government jobs, finance for enterprises and housing, and in political positions according to their percentage in population.

 

[dybmh]

Caste was never slavery

Yes. People were not bought and sold as property. Am I correct?

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are correct. There were a few rich, most poor, in all castes (including the highest two, the brahmins and the warriors), having just enough. The manual workers remained with rich families for generations, were respected and always addressed as uncles and aunts. In one case, the son of a person who spent his life with us (my grandfather got him a job in his department in a native state) went on to become a jockey in horse-racing in Mumbai, and was fairly prosperous. In another case a family remained with us for four generations and finally we sold our ancestral house cheaply to them - because when his mother was dying, she asked my father that if we were ever to sell our house, it should be given to her family. It was brahmin family who conducted rituals in our family's worship niche for 40 years. We also handed over the worship niche as it was, along with its small silver throne on which the deities sat as bonus. That is how relations went.

 

[sooda]

As for Islam, I just want to know one thing. Why were wives of Mohammad restricted from marrying after his death? They were many, and they were young and beautiful.

Were they restricted from remarrying?

Aisha was Muhammed's only young wife. All the others were widows if my memory is correct.

 

[dybmh]

You are correct. There were a few rich, most poor, in all castes (including the highest two, the brahmins and the warriors), having just enough. The manual workers remained with rich families for generations, were respected and always addressed as uncles and aunts. In one case, the son of a person who spent his life with us (my grandfather got him a job in his department in a native state) went on to become a jockey in horse-racing in Mumbai, and was fairly prosperous. In another case a family remained with us for four generations and finally we sold our ancestral house cheaply to them - because when his mother was dying, she asked my father that if we were ever to sell our house, it should be given to her family. It was brahmin family who conducted rituals in our family's worship niche for 40 years. We also handed over the worship niche as it was, along with its small silver throne on which the deities sat as bonus. That is how relations went.

Is it illegal for a brahmin to engage in an intimate relationship with a beggar without the beggar's permission? Has it always been that way, or was the law changed at some point to insure that beggars are not exploited and violated?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Intimate relationships out of marriage were always prohibited and looked down upon. The restriction was strictest for brahmins. The person would have found it difficult to find clients. The restriction was there for even the royal families, but you would agree that in those cases it is impossible to be implemented. There was a caste for the progeny of courtesans of Kings. They were not considered equal to the warrior caste (Rajputs). They were employed in the king's service.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Were they restricted from remarrying?

I think there was a mandate that wives of Mohammad should be considered 'Mothers of Muslims', and Muslims were prohibited from marrying them. Tell me if I am wrong. There is nothing against widow remarriage in Islam, as many times as she may have been widowed.

 

[sooda]

I think there was a mandate that wives of Mohammad should be considered 'Mothers of Muslims, and Muslims were prohibited from marrying them. Tell me if I am wrong. There is nothing against widow remarriage in Islam, as many times as she may have been widowed.

There is also nothing against divorce in Islam.