Christians - How do you ‘watch and pray’ for Christ’s Return

[loverofhumanity]

I’d prefer this thread in general debates as it is a topic not confined to only Christians but moderators please feel most welcome to move it if you wish.

Christ said to ‘watch and pray’ for His Return.

My understanding is He said this so that His Second Coming would not be missed.

How will you know from your own watching and praying whether He has returned or not? Or will you rely on scholars, priests ministers and clergy or the pope to inform you?

I think Jesus left a couple of clues. To know the difference between a true Prophet and a false Prophet He said that a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit, that He who testifies that Jesus came in the flesh is of God and also that whatsoever things are of good report to think on these things.

There have been wars and rumours of wars throughout the centuries after Jesus ascension. There was the Crusades, the Inquisition and holy wars so how do you know which wars He was referring to?

And the sun has been darkened many times and so has the moon turned to blood and stars falling has been a common occurrence. So if no man knows the hour then how can one say He has or has not come unless He came quietly like a thief? What does ‘He that has eyes let him see and he that has ears let him hear mean’? Aren’t we all from birth born with eyes and ears?

And if He comes quietly like a thief and not a spectacular light show in the sky how will you know as no one knows what He looks like or has any DNA to prove it is Him?

Could it be a Great Spiritual Being like Christ who will appear but will be misunderstood like the Jews who were expecting an earthly King?

I believe that the signs accompanying His Return have been misread and that He has already come and gone as a thief. You all probably know that I believe Baha’u’llah was Christ returned in the glory of the Father. What do you think? Is it possible that as the Jews misread the signs, that once again they have been misunderstood? Is man capable of making the same mistake twice or is man’s judgement perfect and he couldn’t have possibly missed the Second Coming?

 

[tayla]

How will you know from your own watching and praying whether He has returned or not? Or will you rely on scholars, priests ministers and clergy or the pope to inform you?

You neglected to mention a possible option, which is: that the Bible verses about this are mistaken, and that Jesus never said this. And besides, he said he would come soon, which he didn't do. No one said it, because it didn't happen.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You neglected to mention a possible option, which is: that the Bible verses about this are mistaken, and that Jesus never said this. And besides, he said he would come soon, which he didn't do. No one said it, because it didn't happen.

I have found personally that the Bible is stunningly accurate and so accurate that it’s accuracy is confounding, actually confirming it’s Divine Origin once it’s deeper mysteries begin to become known.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have found personally that the Bible is stunningly accurate and so accurate that it’s accuracy is confounding, actually confirming it’s Divine Origin once it’s deeper mysteries begin to become known.

"Stunningly" accurate? Some Jews might have some comments on that? But the supposed Virgin Birth can get us going on the accuracy question. Was the Hebrew word a "virgin" or a "young maiden"? There were many things about the "sign" given to the King in Isaiah 7... Does Jesus fit those things that are mentioned? Since one of them is that by the time the child reaches an age where he can choose between right and wrong, the enemies of the King will no longer be around. This has nothing to do with Jesus. It is a child born at the time of Isaiah. So Matthew and Luke have put something into their gospels that has been taken way out of context. So, to me, that's an "accuracy" issue.

Now for the good news for Baha'is. William Miller said that 1844 was the year that Christ was supposed to come back. I've haven't seen any Christian here show how his calculations are wrong. So is there a Christian out there that can show that 1844 was not the year of the return of Christ?

I, of course, have issues with it. That a prophecy that Baha'is say adds up 1260 years is used six different times for six different events. Plus, it has to be changed to "lunar" years.

The other problem is with the 2300 day prophecy from Daniel. When does it start? Daniel 8:13-14 "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

The starting date I've seen Baha'is use is that the 70 weeks and the 2,300 days were to begin with the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem in 457BC. But when did the "transgression of desolation" take place? Shouldn't that date be the start of the 2300 days?

Anyway, these are similar issues to what I'm asking in your other threads, so I'll just focus on this one. And, you know I'll keep asking about things in Revelation that I have problems with. Oh, and there are problems with the accuracy of some of the "prophecies" in Daniel. The ones that cause people to question when it was written. Thanks CG.

 

[wizanda]

How will you know from your own watching and praying whether He has returned or not?

Baha'i are clearly being Anti-Christ's teachings:

When the Lord comes with all of his saints (Matthew 25:31), it isn't something anyone is missing (Matthew 25:32); Baha'i are teaching every prophet had to be treated as a martyr, and ignored - whilst this is overwriting the Bible.

Yeshua wasn't ignored, thousands accepted him; it was the leaders who then twisted his teachings after, and created the Anti-Christ's teachings (John, Paul, and Simon) - which Baha'i are also now following.

The Bible specifically said at the Messiah's 1st coming, that he would be treated that way to test who the hypocrites are (Isaiah 53, Zechariah 11, Daniel 9:26-27, etc).

The 2nd coming (Luke 17:20-37) is just before Judgement day.

Thus after the Messiah comes reality has been cleansed, where we then have new bodies, and a new world where we don't age the same.

Baha'i don't even slightly fulfil Messianic prophecy expectations of world peace, the dead resurrected, all tribes brought back, war abolished - it is only wishful thinking.

In my opinion.

 

[PureX]

I am far from being a traditional Christian. But by my understanding of the meaning of "Christ", to await Christ's return is to await the emergence of God's divine spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness, and generosity within humanity, to the point that humanity is healed and saved from itself, and can finally heal and save 'the world', in turn. Because to me, that is the message and promise of "Christ".

 

[metis]

What do you think?

I don't fret about it, thus if and when it may happen is of no concern to me.

When Francis of Assisi was asked what he would do if he was tilling the garden and he heard that Jesus had just arrived, he responded that he would finish tilling the garden because he could always see Jesus later.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

It’s quite an easy answer for me.
I watched, I prayed? (I guess). And he returned.

so what’s the big deal?

Any true Christian will understand what I’m saying. The vast majority, who are Christian in name only, will forever be waiting for this magical appearance of Jesus on a cloud in the sky. Umm, with a sword, to, ummm, vanquish all their enemies (gays, immigrants, etc.)

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't fret about it, thus if and when it may happen is of no concern to me.

When Francis of Assisi was asked what he would do if he was tilling the garden and he heard that Jesus had just arrived, he responded that he would finish tilling the garden because he could always see Jesus later.

I think complacency has set in and materialism is responsible which is why I believe many Christians aren’t really watching for Christs return and true loyalty and devotion have been replaced by lip service and Sunday mass.

I believe a true Christian would be eager and enthusiastic for any news of His Coming but I believe most disinterested and pay more attention to their priest and minister than Jesus. Just my opinion. I think love for Jesus has been replaced by priest worship and even if He had come most would listen to the priest instead who has a conflict of interest with Jesus return and up till now keep saying He hasn’t returned when I have found that He has.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't fret about it, thus if and when it may happen is of no concern to me.

When Francis of Assisi was asked what he would do if he was tilling the garden and he heard that Jesus had just arrived, he responded that he would finish tilling the garden because he could always see Jesus later.

I used to be Catholic too from birth but I have chosen Jesus over the Pope because I believe if the pope really were infallible He would have accepted Jesus when He returned but all the popes, since His return have gone their own way instead.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Baha'i are clearly being Anti-Christ's teachings:

When the Lord comes with all of his saints (Matthew 25:31), it isn't something anyone is missing (Matthew 25:32); Baha'i are teaching every prophet had to be treated as a martyr, and ignored - whilst this is overwriting the Bible.

Yeshua wasn't ignored, thousands accepted him; it was the leaders who then twisted his teachings after, and created the Anti-Christ's teachings (John, Paul, and Simon) - which Baha'i are also now following.

The Bible specifically said at the Messiah's 1st coming, that he would be treated that way to test who the hypocrites are (Isaiah 53, Zechariah 11, Daniel 9:26-27, etc).

The 2nd coming (Luke 17:20-37) is just before Judgement day.

Thus after the Messiah comes reality has been cleansed, where we then have new bodies, and a new world where we don't age the same.

Baha'i don't even slightly fulfil Messianic prophecy expectations of world peace, the dead resurrected, all tribes brought back, war abolished - it is only wishful thinking.

In my opinion.

People said the same things about Jesus and Christians’ claims so the Jews still wait. Nothing new with what you’re saying. Of course those who misread the signs when He came the first time are I believe repeating the same error of reading the scriptures all too literally.

 

[loverofhumanity]

"Stunningly" accurate? Some Jews might have some comments on that? But the supposed Virgin Birth can get us going on the accuracy question. Was the Hebrew word a "virgin" or a "young maiden"? There were many things about the "sign" given to the King in Isaiah 7... Does Jesus fit those things that are mentioned? Since one of them is that by the time the child reaches an age where he can choose between right and wrong, the enemies of the King will no longer be around. This has nothing to do with Jesus. It is a child born at the time of Isaiah. So Matthew and Luke have put something into their gospels that has been taken way out of context. So, to me, that's an "accuracy" issue.

Now for the good news for Baha'is. William Miller said that 1844 was the year that Christ was supposed to come back. I've haven't seen any Christian here show how his calculations are wrong. So is there a Christian out there that can show that 1844 was not the year of the return of Christ?

I, of course, have issues with it. That a prophecy that Baha'is say adds up 1260 years is used six different times for six different events. Plus, it has to be changed to "lunar" years.

The other problem is with the 2300 day prophecy from Daniel. When does it start? Daniel 8:13-14 "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

The starting date I've seen Baha'is use is that the 70 weeks and the 2,300 days were to begin with the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem in 457BC. But when did the "transgression of desolation" take place? Shouldn't that date be the start of the 2300 days?

Anyway, these are similar issues to what I'm asking in your other threads, so I'll just focus on this one. And, you know I'll keep asking about things in Revelation that I have problems with. Oh, and there are problems with the accuracy of some of the "prophecies" in Daniel. The ones that cause people to question when it was written. Thanks CG.

If you study Revelation chapter 12 and you know the history of Islam you will realise that any reference to dates would of course be in reference to the Islamic calendar as Islam is what I believe is being prophesied in chapter 12. And the year 1260 of the Islamic calendar is 1844 of the Gregorian date.

If you study Revelation ch 12 from Some Answered Questions it seems to be very accurate as to where and which sect even the Bible says is true Islam. So the religion of God comes with the sun and moon under her feet with a crown of 12 stars. The sun and moon are the emblems of Persia and Turkey and there were twelve Imams in Islam. Consider how even before Islam was born, its duration, the land of two Islamic governments, and its duration is predicted.


“The sun with which she was clothed, and the moon which was under her feet, are the two governments which are under the shadow of that religion, the Persian and the Ottoman, for the emblem of Persia is the sun and that of the Ottoman Empire is the crescent moon. Thus the sun and the moon allude to two governments under the shadow of the religion of God. Afterwards it is said: “upon her head a crown of twelve stars”.”

Some Answered Questions
‘Abdu’l‑Bahá

The great red dragon in that chapter is brilliantly explained by Abdul-Baha and not easy to dismiss. He shows how from history it applied to the caliphs who were opposed to the Imams. The Bible I believe is so accurate that even Christians have underestimated it.

How could a religion that has encircled their globe and has almost 2 billion adherents not be mentioned in the Bible? But it is is my firm belief as is the Bab and Baha’u’llah but interpretations have mostly been literal and bypassing other religions thinking they have nothing to do with the Bible which I believe is a gross error on the part of its interpreters as the Bible is a heavenly book about religions and beliefs and is mainly concerned with great and significant spiritual matters and occurrences.

 

[CG Didymus]

If you study Revelation chapter 12

Here it is. Let's study it together.

1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.
4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.
15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.
16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.​

You said, "The great red dragon in that chapter is brilliantly explained by Abdul-Baha and not easy to dismiss." And he says it is the Umayyads. So let's see how "stunningly" accurate he is.

Verse 7 says Michael won the fight with the dragon and the dragon was hurled to earth. But this dragon is said to be Satan. And that power and salvation have come and the authority of his Messiah. They triumphed over this dragon by the blood of the Lamb. So who is this Messiah and this Lamb? And they conquered the Umayyads? No, the Abbasids conquered the Umayyads, but Baha'is say that the Abbasids are the beast that is coming in the next chapter.

Wait a minute... Abdul Baha's commentary ends at verse 6. So there is no official Baha'i interpretation of verse 7-17. So what do Baha'i do now? Guess at the meaning? Well there is a question I have for you in verse 5. This male child is to rule all nations with an iron scepter. When did The Bab rule any nation? And if it is only "figuratively" then that is not "stunningly" accurate. It is reading into the verse what you want it to say.

So what happened to the dragon? Chapter 13:

1 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.
4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.​

So we've already had 42 months, 1260 days and three and a half days, and I think times, time and half a time used... all converted to 1260 lunar years. Here we have a beast that Baha'is have told me is the Abbasids. Do you agree? If you do, we got a problem. The dragon, the Umayyads, did not give their power to the beast, the Abbasids. The Abbasids fought them and won. But neither the Umayyads nor the Abbasids lasted 1260 years. So either the Bible is not accurate or the Baha'i interpretation is not accurate. Even if you find a way to explain it away, it still would not be "stunningly" accurate.

So this beast exercises its authority for 42 months, which the Baha'is again convert to 1260 lunar years. If this beast is the Abbasids, then they didn't start in the year 621 and they didn't end in 1844... or the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar. So totally and completely inaccurate. You can fudge it. Manipulate it how ever you want to make it work for you, but don't call it "stunningly" accurate.

 

[wizanda]

Of course those who misread the signs when He came the first time are I believe repeating the same error of reading the scriptures all too literally.

The reason people misunderstand the Bible is they put their ideas on to it... Rather than literally reading, and studying its details.

The Tanakh said the Chief Corner Stone (Yeshua) is rejected by the Builders (Psalms 118)...

They were meant to miss the signs the first time, to catch out all the hypocrites for removal (Isaiah 8, Zechariah 5, Habakkuk 2, Isaiah 29:9-14, etc).

If you note, we post whole chapters contextually to start making a case, where we literally have to study what is being stated; whereas most take odd lines out of contexts to make a total case.

People said the same things about Jesus and Christians’ claims so the Jews still wait.

The word "jesus" means 'shall grub' in Hebrew (H5580); his name Yehoshua is symbolic of the Branch of Kings (H3091), and Yeshua is God's salvation (H3444).

The Curse of Moses is stated in Deuteronomy 28, where it is prophesied they will go against it in later times.

The Sanhedrin went against the Curse (Zechariah 11) by murdering King David, in the form of the righteous branch of Yehoshua; this then divorced Judah and Israel (Zechariah 11:14), ending the Abrahamic Covenant (Zechariah 11:10).

In Zechariah 12:4, Deuteronomy 28:28-29 the Rabbinic Jews are currently Blinded to recognizing this properly in the text until after the 2nd coming...

Zechariah 12:5-6 is them starting a Fire in the middle east over Jerusalem, and then Zechariah 12:7-10 is King David's 2nd coming; where then everyone shall Mourn in Zechariah 12:10, Matthew 24:30, as Judgement comes at the same time.

In my opinion.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Here it is. Let's study it together.

1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.
4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.
15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.
16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.​

You said, "The great red dragon in that chapter is brilliantly explained by Abdul-Baha and not easy to dismiss." And he says it is the Umayyads. So let's see how "stunningly" accurate he is.

Verse 7 says Michael won the fight with the dragon and the dragon was hurled to earth. But this dragon is said to be Satan. And that power and salvation have come and the authority of his Messiah. They triumphed over this dragon by the blood of the Lamb. So who is this Messiah and this Lamb? And they conquered the Umayyads? No, the Abbasids conquered the Umayyads, but Baha'is say that the Abbasids are the beast that is coming in the next chapter.

Wait a minute... Abdul Baha's commentary ends at verse 6. So there is no official Baha'i interpretation of verse 7-17. So what do Baha'i do now? Guess at the meaning? Well there is a question I have for you in verse 5. This male child is to rule all nations with an iron scepter. When did The Bab rule any nation? And if it is only "figuratively" then that is not "stunningly" accurate. It is reading into the verse what you want it to say.

So what happened to the dragon? Chapter 13:

1 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.
4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.​

So we've already had 42 months, 1260 days and three and a half days, and I think times, time and half a time used... all converted to 1260 lunar years. Here we have a beast that Baha'is have told me is the Abbasids. Do you agree? If you do, we got a problem. The dragon, the Umayyads, did not give their power to the beast, the Abbasids. The Abbasids fought them and won. But neither the Umayyads nor the Abbasids lasted 1260 years. So either the Bible is not accurate or the Baha'i interpretation is not accurate. Even if you find a way to explain it away, it still would not be "stunningly" accurate.

So this beast exercises its authority for 42 months, which the Baha'is again convert to 1260 lunar years. If this beast is the Abbasids, then they didn't start in the year 621 and they didn't end in 1844... or the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar. So totally and completely inaccurate. You can fudge it. Manipulate it how ever you want to make it work for you, but don't call it "stunningly" accurate.

To me it’s very clear that chapter 12 predicts Islam as the religion of God, that the 12 Imams represent true Islam and the Caliphs, the Abbasids and Unayyads were always trying to assassinate the Imams for they feared the prediction that a Promised One would appear from the lineage of Muhammad which the Bab did appear in the year as foretold stunningly in Revelation as the year 1260= 1844 which was the advent of the Bab.

Sunni Islam became the dominant sect in Islam despite its illegitimacy.
The woman is the religion of God. The Twelve stars are the 12 Imams. The religion if Islam, its fruit was the Bab. It took 1260 years before He was to appear. During that time, the 1260 years, Sunni Islam assassinated a third of the Imams seeking to destroy the Promised One from appearing as they feared His appearance would end their reign.

The dragon with seven heads, ten horns and seven crowns is historically explained using known history.

“And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.” [61] This dragon represents the Umayyads, who seized the reins of the religion of Muḥammad; and the seven heads and seven crowns represent the seven dominions and kingdoms over which they came to rule: the Roman dominion in Syria; the Persian, the Arabian, and the Egyptian dominions; the dominion of Africa—that is, Tunisia, Morocco, and Algeria; the dominion of Andalusia, which is now Spain; and the dominion of the Turkish tribes of Transoxania. The Umayyads gained power over all these dominions. The ten horns represent the names of the Umayyad rulers, for, barring repetition, they are ten sovereigns, or ten names of chiefs and rulers. The first is Abú Sufyán and the last is Marván. Some of their names have been repeated, including two Mu‘áviyihs, three Yazíds, two Valíds, and two Marváns. If, however, these names are each counted only once, they number ten in total. These Umayyads—the “first of whom was Abú Sufyán, the former chief of Mecca and founder of the dynasty, and the last of whom was Marván—destroyed a third of the holy and sanctified souls who descended from the pure lineage of Muḥammad and who were even as the stars of heaven.”

I believe there is no clearer proof of both Islam and the abs in the Bible but as Abdul-Baha has said....


“There are no clearer prophecies than this in the Bible for any Manifestation. If one be fair, the agreement between the times indicated by these glorious Souls is the most conclusive proof and can in no wise be subject to any other interpretation. Blessed are the fair-minded who search after truth.

When justice is lacking, however, the people challenge, dispute, and deny the obvious.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The reason people misunderstand the Bible is they put their ideas on to it... Rather than literally reading, and studying its details.

The Tanakh said the Chief Corner Stone (Yeshua) is rejected by the Builders (Psalms 118)...

They were meant to miss the signs the first time, to catch out all the hypocrites for removal (Isaiah 8, Zechariah 5, Habakkuk 2, Isaiah 29:9-14, etc).

If you note, we post whole chapters contextually to start making a case, where we literally have to study what is being stated; whereas most take odd lines out of contexts to make a total case.

The word "jesus" means 'shall grub' in Hebrew (H5580); his name Yehoshua is symbolic of the Branch of Kings (H3091), and Yeshua is God's salvation (H3444).

The Curse of Moses is stated in Deuteronomy 28, where it is prophesied they will go against it in later times.

The Sanhedrin went against the Curse (Zechariah 11) by murdering King David, in the form of the righteous branch of Yehoshua; this then divorced Judah and Israel (Zechariah 11:14), ending the Abrahamic Covenant (Zechariah 11:10).

In Zechariah 12:4, Deuteronomy 28:28-29 the Rabbinic Jews are currently Blinded to recognizing this properly in the text until after the 2nd coming...

Zechariah 12:5-6 is them starting a Fire in the middle east over Jerusalem, and then Zechariah 12:7-10 is King David's 2nd coming; where then everyone shall Mourn in Zechariah 12:10, Matthew 24:30, as Judgement comes at the same time.

In my opinion.

with passages like ‘let the dead bury the dead’ one cannot just read the Bible literally.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Here it is. Let's study it together.

1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.
4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.
15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.
16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.​

You said, "The great red dragon in that chapter is brilliantly explained by Abdul-Baha and not easy to dismiss." And he says it is the Umayyads. So let's see how "stunningly" accurate he is.

Verse 7 says Michael won the fight with the dragon and the dragon was hurled to earth. But this dragon is said to be Satan. And that power and salvation have come and the authority of his Messiah. They triumphed over this dragon by the blood of the Lamb. So who is this Messiah and this Lamb? And they conquered the Umayyads? No, the Abbasids conquered the Umayyads, but Baha'is say that the Abbasids are the beast that is coming in the next chapter.

Wait a minute... Abdul Baha's commentary ends at verse 6. So there is no official Baha'i interpretation of verse 7-17. So what do Baha'i do now? Guess at the meaning? Well there is a question I have for you in verse 5. This male child is to rule all nations with an iron scepter. When did The Bab rule any nation? And if it is only "figuratively" then that is not "stunningly" accurate. It is reading into the verse what you want it to say.

So what happened to the dragon? Chapter 13:

1 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.
4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.​

So we've already had 42 months, 1260 days and three and a half days, and I think times, time and half a time used... all converted to 1260 lunar years. Here we have a beast that Baha'is have told me is the Abbasids. Do you agree? If you do, we got a problem. The dragon, the Umayyads, did not give their power to the beast, the Abbasids. The Abbasids fought them and won. But neither the Umayyads nor the Abbasids lasted 1260 years. So either the Bible is not accurate or the Baha'i interpretation is not accurate. Even if you find a way to explain it away, it still would not be "stunningly" accurate.

So this beast exercises its authority for 42 months, which the Baha'is again convert to 1260 lunar years. If this beast is the Abbasids, then they didn't start in the year 621 and they didn't end in 1844... or the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar. So totally and completely inaccurate. You can fudge it. Manipulate it how ever you want to make it work for you, but don't call it "stunningly" accurate.

One important thing I’d like to add is this letter from the Universal House of Justice regarding the interpretation of the Bible.


While we do not have a running commentary from beginning to end, what we fo have we believe to be authoritative. So for instance we are told that the 24 elders mentioned are the Bab, Baha’u’llah and the Nineteen letters of the Living and four others yet you be revealed perhaps four kings. In chapter 12 we are certain that Islam is what is mentioned , it’s duration and the Bab.

Biblical Verses, Interpretation of

The White Rider is interpreted by Abdul-Baha


“Concerning thy vision of the angels surrounding the great white throne: This "throne" is the body of the Greatest name. The beautiful and glorious person riding upon the white horse is the Greatest Name and the white horse means also His glorious body.”

 

[metis]

I think complacency has set in and materialism is responsible which is why I believe many Christians aren’t really watching for Christs return and true loyalty and devotion have been replaced by lip service and Sunday mass.

I believe a true Christian would be eager and enthusiastic for any news of His Coming but I believe most disinterested and pay more attention to their priest and minister than Jesus. Just my opinion. I think love for Jesus has been replaced by priest worship and even if He had come most would listen to the priest instead who has a conflict of interest with Jesus return and up till now keep saying He hasn’t returned when I have found that He has.

What a piece of utter religious bigotry the above is, and you should be ashamed of yourself for that. What a batch of completely unethical bold-faced lies. We don't just offer "lip service". The "Sunday mass" is entirely about having faith in Jesus and his teachings. We don't pay "more interest to the priest". We don't get into "priest worship", which it absolutely forbidden under Catholic Canon Law anyway.

It is both unethical and totally appalling that you are so willing to stoop to use such religious bigotry. I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church that taught much like that which you have swallowed, but I left it in my mid-20's when I started attending a Catholic church that did not do what you were doing. However, I didn't convert until several years later.

Never, in my 54 years of attending mass, have I heard a priest or deacon stoop to the low that you have taken. If I had heard a priest say something as low, he would have gotten an earful, and I doubt very much that I would be the only one.

When you lie, as you repeatedly did above, then this tells me that you are far more into a type of religious "tribalism" than obeying Paul's warning that we should beware of those who cause division within the Church.

 

[metis]

I used to be Catholic too from birth but I have chosen Jesus over the Pope because I believe if the pope really were infallible He would have accepted Jesus when He returned but all the popes, since His return have gone their own way instead.

I doubt very much that you actually understand the concept of "papal infallibility", as well as how little it has ever been used. Maybe actually look it up in Wikipedia, for example.

And how in the world did you conclude that "He [Pope] would have accepted Jesus when He returned but all the popes, since His return have gone their own way instead".

What utterly deplorable rubbish you're posting, but at the least it does reinforce that fact that there's a good reason why I left a church that did much the same to eventually belong to a church that doesn't stoop to that low.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What a piece of utter religious bigotry the above is, and you should be ashamed of yourself for that. What a batch of completely unethical bold-faced lies. We don't just offer "lip service". The "Sunday mass" is entirely about having faith in Jesus and his teachings. We don't pay "more interest to the priest". We don't get into "priest worship", which it absolutely forbidden under Catholic Canon Law anyway.

It is both unethical and totally appalling that you are so willing to stoop to use such religious bigotry. I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church that taught much like that which you have swallowed, but I left it in my mid-20's when I started attending a Catholic church that did not do what you were doing. However, I didn't convert until several years later.

Never, in my 54 years of attending mass, have I heard a priest or deacon stoop to the low that you have taken. If I had heard a priest say something as low, he would have gotten an earful, and I doubt very much that I would be the only one.

When you lie, as you repeatedly did above, then this tells me that you are far more into a type of religious "tribalism" than obeying Paul's warning that we should beware of those who cause division within the Church.

You are respectfully fully entitled to your opinion but I believe what I believe just as you believe what you believe and I believe that the priest is worshipped above God in this day instead of the Lord. As a former devout catholic this is my view. That if Jesus returned and the pope said He hadn’t returned the masses would turn to the pope and not humbly enquire of the truth, And I believe this has come to pass.

When Jesus first came they denied Him and crucified Him why? Because they didn’t humbly enquire of Christ but instead followed what the Pharisees and Sadducees said.

I believe it’s the same today. Instead of humbly enquiring about the truth it’s what the minister, clergy or leaders say that matters most.

All I’m saying as a former catholic is that I believe a grave error has been made by following the man made interpretations of religious leaders and that He has already appeared and come and gone but like the Jews they still await.

It is my conviction that leaders of religion, despite being fallible and human, are put on pedestals and what they say is followed by the believers. If I listened to the pope and priests I still would not know that Christ had returned but breaking free of them and seeing with my own eyes and knowing with my own God given mind led me to discover that He indeed has returned in the glory of the Father.

It was the Jews I believe who blindly followed the opinions of the Pharisees and Sadducees that led to them denying Jesus when He first appeared and it is my belief and conviction that this same error has been made in this age when Christ returned and His coming has been missed entirely.

I believe a grave error has been made with regards to Christ’s return just as those before when He first appeared but you are entitled to your views and I’ll go my way and you go yours. God knows I speak the truth and that’s all that matters.