'Apologiz-ing' (1 Pet. 3:15) to Muslims and Islam

[firedragon]

I didn't appeal to hypocrisy. I pointed to the deception of substitution (in that case, of "Moses"). For instance, Muslims say they 'believe' in Isaiah (and other such prophets) to Christians, but it is not the actual Isaiah as represented by the words of scripture (KJB; TaNaKh, Masoretic Hebrew, or koine Greek, etc), but another 'Isaiah' as presented by "q" or "hadith", "tafsir".

Same thing. Tu Quoque.

 

[firedragon]

What do you mean by "brother"? Be specific.

You see, brother means a sibling in the male gender. Biblical language its adelfos and Arabic its ah. Some societies teach their people by default not by intention to address people by some phrase like that. Aunt, sis, brother, uncle etc.

So thats what i mean by "brother". Maybe you are not used to it. Fine.

 

[firedragon]

I pointed to the facts of what the texts (each individual), themselves state, which were given over a period of several thousand years, by differing persons, without ever one indication from anyone who held to those texts, that it was another, other than Moses.

You seem to be indicating otherwise, though you presented no evidence, only assertion of apriori.

See, you are committing the same old fallacy called burden of proof fallacy. You present something but when asked for substantiation you tell others to provide evidence to negate your foundation.

You have not responded to a single question with a valid one. No. It is evident that though you claim, you have not studied Islamic sources. You have read some sources of and on, thats not studying.

Thats the reason you cannot answer a simple question. Not a single one.

 

[firedragon]

I didn't appeal to hypocrisy. I pointed to the deception of substitution (in that case, of "Moses"). For instance, Muslims say they 'believe' in Isaiah (and other such prophets) to Christians, but it is not the actual Isaiah as represented by the words of scripture (KJB; TaNaKh, Masoretic Hebrew, or koine Greek, etc), but another 'Isaiah' as presented by "q" or "hadith", "tafsir".

Please provide direct quotation from the Quran as you CLAIMED above here. Which verse speaks about Isaiah?

You will yourself see that you did not study the Quran because you cannot show one. Plus, though you will have access to around 400,000 ahadith, you will not be able to find a hadith that cites isaiah.

You can try and infer, but you cannot quote.

Thus, dont just claim but actually study the sources.

 

[Crosstian]

...Which verse speaks about Isaiah? ...

Is this Muslim website in error, yes or no please:

Prophet Isaiah

"... PROPHET DHUL-KIFL (ISAIAH) (peace be upon him)

Dhul-Kifl (peace be upon him) was the Prophet of Allah. The Holy Qur'an has made mention of him in the following two Verses:

And Isma'il and Idris and Dhul-kifl; all were men of constancy and patience. We admitted them into out mercy because they were of the righteous ones. (21:85. 86)

And remember Isma'il, Elisha and Dhul-kifl. Each of them was of the company of the good. (38:48) ..."​

 

[Crosstian]

You see, brother means a sibling in the male gender. Biblical language its adelfos and Arabic its ah. Some societies teach their people by default not by intention to address people by some phrase like that. Aunt, sis, brother, uncle etc.

So thats what i mean by "brother". Maybe you are not used to it. Fine.

I haven't the slightest indication of what you meant then. Are you saying I am your "sibling in the male gender"?

 

[Crosstian]

...Plus, though you will have access to around 400,000 ahadith, you will not be able to find a hadith that cites isaiah. ...

Is this Muslim website correct, yes or no please:

"... in his thinking he was including it under the Tawrat, i.e. the Jewish Scriptures. Another tradition makes an apparent quote from the Tawrat, a prophecy regarding the Prophet:

Ka'b, quoting the Torah, said we find written, "Muhammad God's messenger, My chosen servant, is not rough, or coarse, or loud-voiced in the streets, he does not requite evil with evil, but forgives and pardons. His birthplace will be in Mecca, his place of emigration in Taiba, his kingdom in Syria, and his people will be those who are devoted to praising, who praise God in prosperity and adversity, who praise God in every alighting-place, who declare God's greatness on every rising ground, who watch for the sun and observe the prayer when its time comes, who tie their lower garments round their middle, who perform ablution at their extremities, who crier summons in the open air, who are the same in fighting as they are in prayer, who make a low sound at night like the buzzing of bees." (Mishkat Al-Masabih, vol. 2, pg. 1237.)​

The section in bold-type is of interest because of its parallel to Isaiah 42:1-4:

Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope.​

The rest of the quote from the Hadith claims to come from the Tawrat as well. If you compare with the rest of Isaiah 42, you do seem some parallels. For example, Isa. 42:11 speaks of the "desert" and "Kedar", probably being the Arabian desert and the territory of Haidar (Kedar), the forefather of the Prophet (pbuh). As well, Isa. 42:10-12 speak of a lot of people praising God, many of whom live in the Arabian desert. Now back to the real point of all this... This tradition refers to the book of Isaiah as being part of the Tawrat, backing up the idea of the Tawrat sometimes being used to refer to the entire Hebrew Scriptures, that is, the Old Testament. ..." - https://isaalmasih.net/bible-isa/tawrat-zabur-injil2.html​

What about this Muslim website?

"... The Bible, the Qurʾan, Hadith texts and other literary citations. In the Ketāb-e iqān, Bahā’-Allāh does not hesitate to cite the Bible in arguing for the truth of the prophet-hood of Moḥammad and the Bāb. He denied the legitimacy of the charge of biblical taḥrif (distortion) and highlighted the need for the non-literal exegesis of its often abstruse, allegorically-oriented eschatological predictions. Like Faḵr-al-Din Rāzi, Moḥammad b. ʿAbd-al-Karim Šahrastāni and others in Islamic history, Bahāʾ-Allāh rejected the notion of a complete textual corruption (taḥrif-e naṣṣ) of the Bible and other divinely revealed sacred books. He preferred to speak of a widespread distortion of the meaning (taḥrif-e maʿāni) of scriptures at the hands of ignorant and misdirected religious leaders. He saw scriptural taḥrif not primarily as a practice of concrete textual alteration (tabdil), but as a misplaced hermeneutic (KI, p. 57, tr., 1968, pp. 75-76). Biblical distortion was, he said, only limited to a few specific instances (KI, pp. 65-67, tr., 1968, p. 86; Bahāʾ-Allāh, 1965, III, p. 27).

Bahāʾ-Allāh refers to the Hebrew Bible only once in the Ketāb-e iqān, in a paraphrased Islamo-biblical form, when he cites Isaiah 65:25 in Persian as a ḥadiṯ-e mašhur ("well-known Tradition,” KI, p. 73, tr., 1968, pp. 113-14). As in the Jawāher al-asrār, he cites the New Testament more extensively than the Old Testament. In this respect he makes use of an Arabic Christian textual tradition very close, if not identical, to that printed in the 17th century Paris and London Polyglot Bibles. The New Testament text published in these Polyglot Bibles was often reprinted in the West with revisions, one of which may have been presented to Bahāʾ-Allāh by missionaries or diplomats during his Baghdad years (Lambden, 2002, pp. 291-316). ..." - KETĀB-E IQĀN – Encyclopaedia Iranica​

 

[Crosstian]

For the Muslims, in this thread (still), I have a serious question I would like to ask.

Have you ever seen any evidence of the Cross (in prophecy, typology, etc) in the OT? If not, would you be interested in what I might share from the OT, sources?

 

[firedragon]

Is this Muslim website in error, yes or no please:

Prophet Isaiah

"... PROPHET DHUL-KIFL (ISAIAH) (peace be upon him)

Dhul-Kifl (peace be upon him) was the Prophet of Allah. The Holy Qur'an has made mention of him in the following two Verses:

And Isma'il and Idris and Dhul-kifl; all were men of constancy and patience. We admitted them into out mercy because they were of the righteous ones. (21:85. 86)

And remember Isma'il, Elisha and Dhul-kifl. Each of them was of the company of the good. (38:48) ..."​

Its an inference. Zul Kifl has also been attributed to Elijah.

 

[firedragon]

I haven't the slightest indication of what you meant then. Are you saying I am your "sibling in the male gender"?

Nah. I shall refrain from calling you brother if i ever remember your name.

Ciao.

 

[firedragon]

Is this Muslim website correct, yes or no please:

"... in his thinking he was including it under the Tawrat, i.e. the Jewish Scriptures. Another tradition makes an apparent quote from the Tawrat, a prophecy regarding the Prophet:

Ka'b, quoting the Torah, said we find written, "Muhammad God's messenger, My chosen servant, is not rough, or coarse, or loud-voiced in the streets, he does not requite evil with evil, but forgives and pardons. His birthplace will be in Mecca, his place of emigration in Taiba, his kingdom in Syria, and his people will be those who are devoted to praising, who praise God in prosperity and adversity, who praise God in every alighting-place, who declare God's greatness on every rising ground, who watch for the sun and observe the prayer when its time comes, who tie their lower garments round their middle, who perform ablution at their extremities, who crier summons in the open air, who are the same in fighting as they are in prayer, who make a low sound at night like the buzzing of bees." (Mishkat Al-Masabih, vol. 2, pg. 1237.)​

The section in bold-type is of interest because of its parallel to Isaiah 42:1-4:

Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope.​

The rest of the quote from the Hadith claims to come from the Tawrat as well. If you compare with the rest of Isaiah 42, you do seem some parallels. For example, Isa. 42:11 speaks of the "desert" and "Kedar", probably being the Arabian desert and the territory of Haidar (Kedar), the forefather of the Prophet (pbuh). As well, Isa. 42:10-12 speak of a lot of people praising God, many of whom live in the Arabian desert. Now back to the real point of all this... This tradition refers to the book of Isaiah as being part of the Tawrat, backing up the idea of the Tawrat sometimes being used to refer to the entire Hebrew Scriptures, that is, the Old Testament. ..." - https://isaalmasih.net/bible-isa/tawrat-zabur-injil2.html

What about this Muslim website?

"... The Bible, the Qurʾan, Hadith texts and other literary citations. In the Ketāb-e iqān, Bahā’-Allāh does not hesitate to cite the Bible in arguing for the truth of the prophet-hood of Moḥammad and the Bāb. He denied the legitimacy of the charge of biblical taḥrif (distortion) and highlighted the need for the non-literal exegesis of its often abstruse, allegorically-oriented eschatological predictions. Like Faḵr-al-Din Rāzi, Moḥammad b. ʿAbd-al-Karim Šahrastāni and others in Islamic history, Bahāʾ-Allāh rejected the notion of a complete textual corruption (taḥrif-e naṣṣ) of the Bible and other divinely revealed sacred books. He preferred to speak of a widespread distortion of the meaning (taḥrif-e maʿāni) of scriptures at the hands of ignorant and misdirected religious leaders. He saw scriptural taḥrif not primarily as a practice of concrete textual alteration (tabdil), but as a misplaced hermeneutic (KI, p. 57, tr., 1968, pp. 75-76). Biblical distortion was, he said, only limited to a few specific instances (KI, pp. 65-67, tr., 1968, p. 86; Bahāʾ-Allāh, 1965, III, p. 27).

Bahāʾ-Allāh refers to the Hebrew Bible only once in the Ketāb-e iqān, in a paraphrased Islamo-biblical form, when he cites Isaiah 65:25 in Persian as a ḥadiṯ-e mašhur ("well-known Tradition,” KI, p. 73, tr., 1968, pp. 113-14). As in the Jawāher al-asrār, he cites the New Testament more extensively than the Old Testament. In this respect he makes use of an Arabic Christian textual tradition very close, if not identical, to that printed in the 17th century Paris and London Polyglot Bibles. The New Testament text published in these Polyglot Bibles was often reprinted in the West with revisions, one of which may have been presented to Bahāʾ-Allāh by missionaries or diplomats during his Baghdad years (Lambden, 2002, pp. 291-316). ..." - KETĀB-E IQĀN – Encyclopaedia Iranica​

So what you mean by saying that you have studied 1000 or more islamic documents you mean websites?

The problem with surfing websites and claiming you studied 1000s of documents is that you end up making a lot of shallow exploration.

You have cut and pasted from a bahai website. Do your research thoroughly and actually study.

Also, hadith e mashur does not mean well known tradition. It means "story that was discussed and come to a consensus of".

In addition, you are quotinng thabreezi. Do you know what it is? Its not the Quran.

Oh. I remembered not to call you "brother".

 

[Crosstian]

Its an inference. Zul Kifl has also been attributed to Elijah.

You still did not answer my question. Was the Muslim website correct or no?

 

[Crosstian]

So what you mean by saying that you have studied 1000 or more islamic documents you mean websites? ...

You have misread the OP. Please read it more closely, thank you.

 

[Crosstian]

Ok, I am going to begin showing the Cross through the Scripture.

 

[firedragon]

You still did not answer my question. Was the Muslim website correct or no?

I answered. Maybe you dont like the answer. Cant help it.

 

[firedragon]

Ok, I am going to begin showing the Cross through the Scripture.

Thanks but thats irrelevant.

 

[Crosstian]

...You have cut and pasted from a bahai website. ...

You are referring to the second citation, not the first correct?

Also, hadith e mashur does not mean well known tradition. It means "story that was discussed and come to a consensus of".

It's still 'hadith' yes?

In addition, you are quotinng thabreezi. Do you know what it is? Its not the Quran.

Yes, you asked for 'hadith'.

Oh. I remembered not to call you "brother".

I never said you couldn't call me "brother". I simply asked what you specifically mean (definitionally) by it, and I am still awaiting an answer on it.

 

[Crosstian]

Thanks but thats irrelevant.

It will be presented anyway. Irrefutable.

 

[Crosstian]

I answered. Maybe you dont like the answer. Cant help it.

I asked for a 'yes', or 'no'. What I basically got was "and allah knows best" ("inference", and "Elijah", others) kind of answer, which is a non-answer.

 

[Crosstian]

Romanism
&
Islamism

Romanism - Officially recognized Latin
Islamism - Officially recognized Arabic

Romanism - Main Country is Italy, a Peninsula facing to the West
Islamism - Main Country is Arabia, a Peninsula facing to the East

Romanism - Sunday worship, first day of the week - Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment
Islamism - Friday worship, sixth day of the week - Al Jumu'ah 62:9-10

[JEHOVAH's is the Holy 7th day the Sabbath of the LORD Jesus, Exodus 20:8-11 KJB]​

Romanism - Sun/moon monstrance in which the 'eucharist/host' is kept
Islamism - Moon/Sun/or star symbol

Romanism - 8 pointed star being a symbol of RC 'Mary'
Islamism - 8 pointed star in Islam

Romanism - Jerome's corrupted Vulgate [corrupted the true vulgate, the Italic], corrupted Sinaiticus, Vaticanus
Islamism - Abu al Qasim's corrupted qur'an [corrupted with gnostic, talmudic, sources, etc]

Romanism - Creeds, so-called 'church fathers', papal bulls, encyclicals, briefs, etc.
Islamism - aHadiths, Sunnah, Tafsirs, Sharia [Islamic laws]

Romanism - [Roman] Canon Law [natural law]
Islamism - Sharia [Islamic law]

[JEHOVAH's Ten Commandments, Exodus 20:1-17 KJB]
​

Romanism - a combined Religion/State power
Islamism - a combined State/Religion power

[the state and church are to be in their respective spheres, see Romans 13]​

Romanism - RC 'Mary' highly exalted to co-Mediatrix, hyper-dulia, etc and Immaculate conception dogma
Islamism - Islamic 'Mary', see qur'an Maryam 19, and aHadith in which 'Mary' is 'not touched by satan'

Romanism - gnostic connections, Shepherd of Hermas, Thomasine, Judasine, etc
Islamism - gnostic connections, 'infancy gospel of thomas', etc. baby 'Isa' speaks from under the womb, and cradle, and makes clay birds come to life, etc

Romanism - continuing 'Mass', the unbloody sacrifice
Islamism - continuing bloody animal sacrifices

Romanism - no victory over sin, the Auricular confessional, penances, etc [works salvation, fasting, rosaries, etc]
Islamism - no victory over sin, works salvation, the as-salat, wudu, fasting, pilgrimaages, etc

Romanism - War - Crusades, Inquisition - aka Office/Curia of Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
Islamism - War - Jihad, a qur'an Al Tawbah or Bara'ah 9:5,29, etc

Romanism - Vatican, Ultramontanism, all power in one man, popery
Islamism - Caliphate, all power in one man, Mahdi, etc. a qur'an Al Nisa' 4:65, Al Ahzab 33:36

Romanism - Pope's sayings, councils sayings, traditions of men
Islamism - Muhammad's sayings [aHadith], traditions of men

Romanism - another Intercessor, RC 'Mary', the co-Mediatrix, co-Redemptrix, Popes, Priests, 'Saints', etc
Islamism - Abu al Qasim

Romanism - Important women, RC 'Mary', 'Fatima' [city, so-called miracle site]
Islamism - Important women, Islamic 'Mary', Maraym 19, Fatimah the daughter of Abu al Qasim [Muhammad]

Romanism - monkery, monasticism, etc
Islamism - Khadija, Waraq bin Naufal, Nestor [Baeira, Pakhyras, Sergius the monk] see Hayatu'l-Qulub' by Abu Talib, or Al-Asbahani, Dala'il al-Nubuwah 1:173, or see the Jami' al-Tawarikh by Rashid al-Din Hamadani published in Tabriz, Persia, or see Ibn Hisham, Ibn Sa'd al-Baghdadi, or Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari, or even just plain old Yusuf Ali notations on Baeira.

Romanism - Pilgrimmages to Fatima, Lourdes, Vatican, Guadalupe, etc
Islamism - Pilgrimmages, the greater and lesser hajj to Mecca, Medina, Jerusalem, Ka'ba, etc.

Romanism - state of the dead - immortal soul/spirit theology, same as pagans, occult
Islamism - state of the dead - immortal soul/spirit theology, same as pagans, occult

Romanism - purgatory, limbo, etc
Islamism - Barzakh, a waiting place on the other side of the as-sirat bridge, until judgment day

Romanism - Eternal torments in hellfire/lake of fire, a never-ending, always increasing torment
Islamism - Eternal torments [especially for women, as they are the ones to fill hell mostly] in a hellfire/lake of fire, always increasing, never-ending, in Islam there are 7 levels of Hell [Jahannam; Jahim, Jahannam, Sa'ir, Saqar, Ladha, Hawiyah, Hutamah]

[Bible [KJB] teaches 2nd death, oblivion, dead and gone forever, no life, burnt up into smoke and ashes in the flames on earth before being made new, see Revelation 20, etc]​

Romanism - Nuns/Habits/Monks/Cloistered
Islamism - Hijab, Burkha, women cannot work, must stay in the house in a single room [a few exceptions], etc.

Romanism - special exorcists
Islamism - special exorcists, called the ruqyah; al-Tibb al-Nabawi

Romanism - beads, 'the Rosary', the vain repetitious prayers, also monk chants, breath prayers, desert 'fathers' mysticism, etc, to deaden the mind, allowing more access to the voice of satan:

"...as though they were listening to the very voice of the Blessed Mother explaining the mysteries and conversing with them at length..." [ON THE ROSARY; MAGNAE DEI MATRIS; Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII promulgated on September 8, 1892.]​

Islamism - beads, the Misbah, Tasbih, Sibha, having the same effect to deaden the mind, allowing more access to the voice of satan

Romanism - Cantor, Intonation, Gregorian Chants
Islamism - Muslim chants, qur'anic intonation [which means recitation]

Romanism - earthly sanctuary at the Vatican, the Mass in Rome
Islamism - earthly sanctuary, the Ka'baa in Mecca

Romanism - Indulgences, forgiveness of sins, kising pope's feet, Yoni imagery (Jesus, the Stone, central) throughout, etc
Islamism - sins forgiven by 'good' [meaning Islamic] deeds, which wipe out 'bad' [means Islamic] deeds, kissing the idolatrous black stone inside the Yoni corner.

Romanism - Washings for the Mass, with specifications, etc
Islamism - Wudu, religious washings, with specifications, etc

Romanism - claim earthly Jerusalem [a forever desolate city] for Catholicism
Islamism - claim earthly Jerusalem [a forever desolate city] for Islamism

[JEHOVAH's eternal city, the New Jerusalem is above, Galatians 4:26 KJB, coming down from Heaven, Revelation 21:2, for here we have no continuing city, Hebrews 13:14 KJB]​

Romanism - Captial - Rome, the self-styled and so-called 'eternal city'
Islamism - Captial - Mecca

[JEHOVAH's eternal city, the New Jerusalem is above, Galatians 4:26 KJB, coming down from Heaven, Revelation 21:2, for here we have no continuing city, Hebrews 13:14 KJB]​

Romanism - false understanding of angels, Michael, Gabriel and other numerous named angels in their sources, sandalfon, metatron, salthiel, saraquel, raphael, etc.
Islamism - false understanding of angels, Michael, Gabriel and other numerous named angels in their sources, Israfel, etc.

Romanism - Visionaries - Ignatius Loyola, etc [in a Cave]
Islamism - Visionaries - Abu al Qasim [in a Cave, Hira]

Romanism - private killer assassins, political rebellion creators, the Jesuits, Dominicans, Opus Dei, etc
Islamism - Hashashins [assassins]

Romanism - Religious Calendar - Lent, Easter, etc, etc.
Islamism - Religious Calendar - Ramadan, etc, etc.

Romanism - pagan practices accepted or taken over and 'baptized', all-saints day, equinoxes, etc
Islamism - pagan practices, circling the Ka'baa, throwing stones at the shaytan, etc.

Romanism - unscriptural food and drink allowances and forbidances [Leviticus 11; Deuteronomy 14; Acts 15; 1 Timothy 4:3 KJB]
Islamism - unscriptural food and drink allowances and forbidances, under Abu al Qasim's Halal and Haram [and Makrooh]

Romanism - etc. add your own
Islamism - etc. add your own

The two are mirrored of each other, a yin and yang, a so-called 'light' and 'dark', both in great error, yet the one [Islam] came out of the other (to be demonstrated in detail later), an attempt at an early ecumenical [Mecci] endeavor, that failed [Medini].