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From where did the "wives" of Cain and Abel come?

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Then Chapter two, where, on the seventh day, the earth was barren and waste, although the seeds of the plants that had been destroyed when all the beast and homo sapiens of the sixth creative day were wiped off the face of the earth, remained in the ground, but no rain had fallen since the cataclysmic end to the life on earth.

It was then that JAH-el, (Lord to the glory of EL the creator) after planting a garden in Eden, created a man and called him Adam, etc, etc, etc.
I think it reads differently

Man on Day Six.....Chapter One

no homos were killed
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
From where did the "wives" of Cain and Abel come?

How were THEY created?
Excellent Question.

Cain's wife apparently came from Nod. How? There were other people on Earth at the time of Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel.
Even Cain was worried about what those other people would do to him!
"My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me"

How could that be? Because Genesis 1 does not describe the INITIAL creation of the Earth.
Notice Genesis 1:1-2.......
It is ASSUMED that both verses describe one point in time -but they actually describe an unspecified amount of time between the initial completion of the heavens and the Earth in the beginning (at which the sons of God shouted for joy as described in Job) and its BECOMING WASTE AND RUIN. If you look of the Hebrew word translated "WAS", you'll see it can -and should in this case -be translated BECAME/HAD BECOME -and "WITHOUT FORM, AND VOID" can be translated WASTE, AND RUIN. THAT MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE! It describes a ruined state -NOT a completely lifeless state on Earth! It also nullifies the idea of a biblical young Earth.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
(UNSPECIFIED AMOUNT OF TIME)
2 And the earth (HAD BECOME WASTE, AND RUIN); and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

EVER WONDER WHY SATAN IS CALLED DESTROYER? Notice Satan had already rebelled BEFORE being in Eden -and he staged his coup from Earth.
Yes -he fell from heaven -AFTER going up to take God's throne!
Isa 14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

What about the "demons"? Satan was responsible for a third of them -and they were cast down with him. They are described here....
Jude 1:6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
That first estate was Earth before Adam! NOT before ANY humanoids were on Earth!
They did not "keep" it -they did not take care of it -messed it up -and left it to war with God.

The fact that Adam was directly created has nothing to do with the rest of the history of the Earth -and what is described in Genesis is a RENEWAL in preparation for mankind from Adam -the first to have the potential to live forever -to literally be made like God.

Anyway -I could do this all day -but I'd advise reading the bible with an open mind. Don't just assume it says or means what people say it does.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Never heard of this. Curious. Where doe's he say swords are no longer allowed in war?

.
Not that swords are no longer allowed in war, but 'a slave of the Lord does not need to fight. . .' (2 Timothy 2:24), because 'the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly. . .' (2 Corinthians 10:4), but spiritual.
(Ephesians 6:10-18)

(Matthew 26:52) . . .Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.

So fighting against enemies with physical weapons, though allowed by God, in the past, became a no no later.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
What if we are missing the real account, because we read it the wrong way. Might it not lead to confusing ourselves and others we exchange with? Mightn't that create problems for both, where faith is concerned?
A book written by the almighty, with the possible purpose to communicate to the world, can give different results depending on who reads it?

Suboptimal.

So, time for another little advice to God: next time, either you write unambiguously, or you communicate your truths telepathically, possibly during your personal relationships your believers talk so much about. The latter being preferable to reach global agreement.

Ciao

- viole
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
A book written by the almighty, with the possible purpose to communicate to the world, can give different results depending on who reads it.

Suboptimal.

So, time for another little advice to God: next time, either you write unambiguously, or you communicate your truths telepathically, possibly during your personal relationships your believers talk so much about. The latter being preferable to reach global agreement.

Ciao

- viole
You are missing a whole lot, aren't you.
Think about it.
Before the Bible was written, God communicated - not with the whole world, but with specific persons... whom he called his servants. Why? What made them his servants?

When he communicated his message to others, he did so through his servants. Why? What was often the result?

So, when the writings were completed with the last of the apostles to be alive - John, and these writings were collected and compiled into one book, God was communicating his message to persons, through whom? His servants.

Have you noticed a pattern?
If you know anything about the Bible, which sadly, many don't have a clue, you will note a few significant details.

1. God uses people whom a) he reveals himself to. In other words he lets himself be known by them,and this is based on the fact that they b} are humble at heart, honest with themselves, and are searching for him. In other words, they investigate the evidence that speaks of God, and they c) submit to God as sovereign of the universe... because he deserves the honor, and the glory, because he created all things, and because of his will they came into existence and were created.

2. Throughout the centuries, from Abel to Enoch, Noah to Abraham... to now, many people have not listened to those of God's servants.
They mocked them, opposed them, and even imprisoned and murdered them. Why?
Basically, they rejected God. How so?
They did not a) want the message, b) want to listen to the messenger - their pride, superiority, and selfish greed got in the way, and c) they did not want to do what God said... Do was a bad word, when it came from God, but they do what they want.

Nothing has changed viole.
I could quote a hundred scriptures to show you that the reason people are divided over scripture, is simply this...
There are those who are God's servants, because they are humble, honest, and hungry for truth, and they submit to God as sovereign, and there are those who are not God's servants, because... the opposite.
Added to that, they reject God's message, his messengers, because of pride, a sense of superiority, selfishness and greed, and wanting to do things their way.

That is what the Biblical scriptures reveal.
It is all there for anyone who cares to see.
So you are missing a lot. Right now, your vision may e compared to someone peeping through a key hole, and trying to get a 360 degree view of their house.

It's not too late for any, but time is running out.
Oh, and the Bible says this too...
(2 Peter 3:3, 4) . . .in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”

If you like, keep crying myth, while holding on to the modern myths. I am 100% sure we'll soon see the real thing.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
What if we are missing the real account, because we read it the wrong way. Might it not lead to confusing ourselves and others we exchange with? Mightn't that create problems for both, where faith is concerned?
I do think the versions or...insistence of a certain view based on adding in extra assumptions and details not in the text, and claiming that's what the text definitely means, instead of admitting it's only an idea about what might have happened -- those insisted claims the text says or clearly implies ideas/assumptions X, Y, Z when it actually does not, and actually X,Y,Z are just a viewpoint in reality, even no matter how widespread or how old...that tendency is very destructive to many with faith, in that they are being told scripture is different than it is. I don't mean a few easy examples, such as Flat Earth, but broadly all sorts of such doctrinal ideas groups have come up with, including old ones around for centuries or millennia also (e.g. the Sadducees are an easy example).

Regardless of who gets their guesses about unspecified small details correct, ultimately those guesses (even the correct ones) don't really matter, not in the most important way. Why? Because the only good reading is the one where someone sets aside all of the ideas and positions and assumptions, and just really listens, like a person might trying to get a great work of poetry (that same openness), in order to really hear the real messages. For instance in Genesis chapter 1 one of the real messages is repeated several times, but that is only helpful to clue us in that there are definitely and clearly real messages that have powerful effects on those that really listen in silent hearing that are not at all about small details not being addressed.

In other words, a person preoccupied about how much time passed as the *main* or *central* issue (instead of seeing it as merely an interesting side issue that is beside the point of the scripture) is totally lost and not even understanding at all. That attitude would be reading it in a way similar to an anti-religious person for instance, that only has an exterior motive (such as to prove their own exterior view), and doesn't listen. Those that don't listen totally miss all that's being said, even if they know the words.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
You are missing a whole lot, aren't you.
Think about it.
Before the Bible was written, God communicated - not with the whole world, but with specific persons... whom he called his servants. Why? What made them his servants?

When he communicated his message to others, he did so through his servants. Why? What was often the result?

So, when the writings were completed with the last of the apostles to be alive - John, and these writings were collected and compiled into one book, God was communicating his message to persons, through whom? His servants.

Have you noticed a pattern?
If you know anything about the Bible, which sadly, many don't have a clue, you will note a few significant details.

1. God uses people whom a) he reveals himself to. In other words he lets himself be known by them,and this is based on the fact that they b} are humble at heart, honest with themselves, and are searching for him. In other words, they investigate the evidence that speaks of God, and they c) submit to God as sovereign of the universe... because he deserves the honor, and the glory, because he created all things, and because of his will they came into existence and were created.

2. Throughout the centuries, from Abel to Enoch, Noah to Abraham... to now, many people have not listened to those of God's servants.
They mocked them, opposed them, and even imprisoned and murdered them. Why?
Basically, they rejected God. How so?
They did not a) want the message, b) want to listen to the messenger - their pride, superiority, and selfish greed got in the way, and c) they did not want to do what God said... Do was a bad word, when it came from God, but they do what they want.

Nothing has changed viole.
I could quote a hundred scriptures to show you that the reason people are divided over scripture, is simply this...
There are those who are God's servants, because they are humble, honest, and hungry for truth, and they submit to God as sovereign, and there are those who are not God's servants, because... the opposite.
Added to that, they reject God's message, his messengers, because of pride, a sense of superiority, selfishness and greed, and wanting to do things their way.

That is what the Biblical scriptures reveal.
It is all there for anyone who cares to see.
So you are missing a lot. Right now, your vision may e compared to someone peeping through a key hole, and trying to get a 360 degree view of their house.

It's not too late for any, but time is running out.
Oh, and the Bible says this too...
(2 Peter 3:3, 4) . . .in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”

If you like, keep crying myth, while holding on to the modern myths. I am 100% sure we'll soon see the real thing.

You are 100% sure we will soon see the real thing? Well, you guys have been 100% sure for the last 2000 years. It is mind boggling that you really believe there is a Jesus up there getting ready to land here and vindicate all of you. Lol.

Anyway, if you really believe that, I am a qualified atheist. You know that. That means, I will be left behind when you all take off to heaven. So, who is going to take care of your pets?

For a paltry 100$/month insurance fee today, i can take care of your pets when Jesus promotes you guys to heaven. And you are not going to need the money up there, anyway.

Deal? :)

Ciao

- viole
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I follow Swedenborg's cherry-picking of Bible stories in Genesis as being tales of spiritual significance rather than as historical accounts of events intended to be taken literally.

How do you like cherry picking through the Bible?
I find the options within the Bible wholly inconsistent with a logical god. To say one thing and then contradict it with something else is what one might expect of a child, not a mature, intelligent being.

.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
I find the options within the Bible wholly inconsistent with a logical god. To say one thing and then contradict it with something else is what one might expect of a child, not a mature, intelligent being.

.

God in the Bible, or at least in the OT, isn't ''a child'' in my opinion nor a tyrant or a monster. He is a plot device. An excuse to ive some sort of overarching plot to better tell the story of the Ancient Hebrew people as they remebered it. That's why in one passage he can create the universe and in another he is incapable of defeating an army with iron chariots. That's also why in one he is generous and full of wisdom and in another he just murders people because he's jealous and angry.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
I find the options within the Bible wholly inconsistent with a logical god. To say one thing and then contradict it with something else is what one might expect of a child, not a mature, intelligent being.

.
There are a lot of popular misconceptions about the bible, based on people being told isolated verses, or short isolated groups of verses mean something, some meaning X, when a full reading of that book (sometimes also associated books nearby) shows a very different situation and meaning.

I know this from having answered dozens of such popular misconceptions that are currently widespread. Of course, not everyone is even interested in knowing the real full story, because sometimes people are very ideological, and have no interest in hearing new information.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Not that swords are no longer allowed in war, but 'a slave of the Lord does not need to fight. . .' (2 Timothy 2:24), because 'the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly. . .' (2 Corinthians 10:4), but spiritual.
(Ephesians 6:10-18)

(Matthew 26:52) . . .Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.

So fighting against enemies with physical weapons, though allowed by God, in the past, became a no no later.
Interesting verse, Mat 26:52, however, put in context it doesn't seem to be addressing the use of swords in war at all, but is merely a reminder of sorts about swords in general.

Matthew 26:47-52
47 While Jesus was still speaking, Judas, one of the twelve apostles came there. He had a big crowd of people with him, all carrying swords and clubs. They had been sent from the leading priests and the older leaders of the people. 48 Judasd]">[d] planned to do something to show them which one was Jesus. He said, “The one I kiss will be Jesus. Arrest him.” 49 So he went to Jesus and said, “Hello, Teacher!” Then Judas kissed him.

50 Jesus answered, “Friend, do the thing you came to do.”

Then the men came and grabbed Jesus and arrested him. 51 When that happened, one of the followers with Jesus grabbed his sword and pulled it out. He swung it at the servant of the high priest and cut off his ear.

52 Jesus said to the man, “Put your sword back in its place. People who use swords will be killed with swords. 53 Surely you know I could ask my Father and he would give me more than twelve armies of angels. 54 But it must happen this way to show the truth of what the Scriptures said.”
To me it appears Jesus is simply reiterating an obvious truth: “Put your sword back in its place. People who use swords will be killed with swords." Just as a father might tell his son, "Drive carefully. People who drive carelessly will get killed." Of course this doesn't happen to everyone who drives carelessly, just as not everyone who uses a sword will be killed.

.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Everyone likes to speculate don't they?

While it seems somewhat trivial, I never had any concern about such a question when I first read these chapters very long ago, as it clearly isn't addressed in the text, which isn't at all about small details.

Something else is afoot -- not detailed history, but more interesting things.

I never had a distraction to imagine extra ideas such as that notion some have that whatever happened in Genesis chapter 2 was during chapter 1 (sorta an odd idea in my own personal view), and it's interesting to consider here the question: why assume that?

Simpler to read to just read it as it is written, more plainly, thus as a sequence, so that all in chapter 1 finished before anything in chapter 2. That would then mean a variety of humans came into existence in some sense (in chapter 1, just as the text says) before the special situation of the Garden in chapter 2.

In that case, Adam and Eve are the first ever humans with souls: breathed in spirit, thus the forerunners of all of us here in the profound way. In other words, if one wants to speculate as your question does, then one speculation is just that it's a sequence of events, and things are nowhere coincident together, but all is in sequence.

Ergo, then of course in chapter 4 when Cain leaves for good and goes off to this 'land of Nod' which is some already existing group/tribe/place/or nation....he takes a wife there from the already-existing peoples.

That was all merely recounting the text as it is with just the simplest interpretation with the least extra assumptions added.

In a way these kinds of side issues are a red herring though. One wants to read chapter 1, 2, 3 with the intent to actually get the real messages, not the trivial details (which aren't even in the text), such as mere time duration, or even admitted interesting stuff like in the vision of chapter 1 did the sun, moon, stars appear on day 4 first in the vision due to constant clouds on the previous 'days', etc. side issue stuff people invent theories about.

I mean don't miss the forest for the trees. In a way, the reason all those kinds of details are missing is they truly are not the point -- small details are not the point, not even a little.

In other words, forget all the noise, sometime, maybe another day, and just purely read, as if a poem if you need, and try to hear the message, the one that isn't small detail, but deeper.

You are still having to speculate because your mind, like anyone's with intelligence, naturally asks these questions...unless it is well understood that the story isn't meant to be taken literally...then things get really simple.

The speculation becomes more spiritual the less we have to "worry" about things inconsistent with good scientific sense.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
From where did the "wives" of Cain and Abel come?

How were THEY created?

The most simplest answer ever...

The Bible doesn't say...extra-Biblical stories may offer answers.

The story isn't concerned with nor was it advised by modern common-sense advised by the current state of science.

What I want to know is where did God's wife Asherah go? And why are women so systematically made to be second class? Why are the traditionally Goddess roles in Genesis subverted, removed or made into the acts of a masculine God?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
God in the Bible, or at least in the OT, isn't ''a child'' in my opinion nor a tyrant or a monster. He is a plot device. An excuse to ive some sort of overarching plot to better tell the story of the Ancient Hebrew people as they remebered it. That's why in one passage he can create the universe and in another he is incapable of defeating an army with iron chariots. That's also why in one he is generous and full of wisdom and in another he just murders people because he's jealous and angry.
But many, many Jews and Christians don't read remarks in the Bible as fictional plot devices, but rather as advice, requests, commands, and depictions of facts.

Two of those "facts":

Q. Did Jesus bear his own cross to Golgotha?

YES John 19:17
17 He [Jesus] carried his own cross to a place called “The Place of the Skull.” (In Aramaic the name of this place is “Golgotha.”)


NO Matthew 27:31-32
31 After they finished making fun of him, the soldiers took off the robe and put his own clothes on him again. Then they led him away to be killed on a cross.
32 The soldiers were going out of the city with Jesus. They saw a man from Cyrene named Simon, and they forced him to carry Jesus’ cross.

Q. Who killed Saul

Saul himself 1 Samuel 31:4-6
4 Saul told the boy who carried his armor, “Take your sword and kill me or else these foreigners will do it and torment me as well!” But Saul’s helper was afraid and refused to kill him. So Saul took out his own sword and fell on it.
5 When the helper saw that Saul was dead, he took out his own sword, fell on it, and died there with Saul. 6 So Saul, his three sons, and the boy who carried his armor all died together that day.


An Amalekite 2 Samuel 1:1- 16
6 The young soldier said, “I happened to be on Mount Gilboa. I saw Saul leaning on his spear. The Philistine chariots and horse soldiers were coming closer and closer to Saul. 7 Saul looked back and saw me. He called to me and I answered him. 8 Then Saul asked me who I was. I told him that I was an Amalekite. 9 Then Saul said, ‘Please kill me. I am hurt badly. And I am about to die anyway.’ 10 He was hurt so badly that I knew he wouldn’t live. So I stopped and killed him. Then I took the crown from his head and the bracelet from his arm and brought them here to you, my lord.”

.
 
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Moz

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
Just as not everyone who uses a sword will be killed......This is not true.

Rev.18
[1] And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.[2] And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. [3] For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.........................................[24] And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Rev.19 [1] And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:[2] For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.[3] And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

All those who have spilled Blood unrighteously will be held to account. To chime in during the story and complain without taking the ending into account is a tricky way to operate in a debating arena. It is pretty common knowledge that the Biblical solutions to the worlds problems are not about making THIS world better but in preparing for the Kingdom of God. The rectification for the problems of innocent suffering in this fallen world is the promised resurrection into the Kingdom Of God.


 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
From where did the "wives" of Cain and Abel come?

Adam was not the first human being, he got evolved in million of years his tribe along-with other tribes. Yes, Adam was was the first human being with whom G-d conversed directly.
Shujra*/Tree of life** or family tree*** or the tree of the knowledge [of good and evil (Hebrew: עֵץ הַדַּעַת)].*~and or simple social codes of Adam*^ was some people of some tribe from whom Adam was warned not to have any social links as they were disruptive/rowdy/troublesome/trouble-making/disorderly people.
No problem for wedding of Adam or his sons etc. Right, please?

Regards
________________
*Quran
**"The tree of life (Hebrew: עֵץ הַחַיִּים Tiberian: ‘êṣ ha-ḥayyîm; Standard: Etz haChayim)[1] is a term mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.
In the Book of Genesis, the tree of life is first described in chapter 2, verse 9 ."
Tree of life (biblical) - Wikipedia
*** "A family tree, or pedigree chart, is a chart representing family relationships in a conventional tree structure. The more detailed family trees used in medicine and social work are known as genograms." Wikipedia
*~The tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Hebrew: עֵץ הַדַּעַת).
Tree of life (biblical) - Wikipedia
*^ "Âdam or Aadam (Arabic: آدم‎, romanized: ʾĀdam) is believed to have been the first human and nabi (Arabic: نَـبِي‎, prophet) on Earth, in Islam.[1] Adam's role as the father of the human race is looked upon by Muslims with reverence. Muslims also refer to his wife, Haawa (Arabic: حَـواء‎, Eve), as the "mother of mankind".[2] Muslims see Adam as the first Muslim on Earth, as the Quran states that all the Prophets preached the same faith of Islam (Arabic: إِسـلام‎, 'Submission' (to God)).[3]
In the Qur'an Adam is given the name by God known as the (Adam-I-Safi) or The Chosen One.[4][5]
ooooo
Adam was on earth, God taught him how to plant seeds and bake bread. This was to become the way of all of Adam's children.[12]"
Adam in Islam - Wikipedia
 

dad

Undefeated
From where did the "wives" of Cain and Abel come?

Adam was not the first human being, he got evolved in million of years his tribe along-with other tribes. Yes, Adam was was the first human being with whom G-d conversed directly.
Shujra*/Tree of life** or family tree*** or the tree of the knowledge [of good and evil (Hebrew: עֵץ הַדַּעַת)].*~and or simple social codes of Adam*^ was some people of some tribe from whom Adam was warned not to have any social links as they were disruptive/rowdy/troublesome/trouble-making/disorderly people.
No problem for wedding of Adam or his sons etc. Right, please?

Regards
________________
*Quran
**"The tree of life (Hebrew: עֵץ הַחַיִּים Tiberian: ‘êṣ ha-ḥayyîm; Standard: Etz haChayim)[1] is a term mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.
In the Book of Genesis, the tree of life is first described in chapter 2, verse 9 ."
Tree of life (biblical) - Wikipedia
*** "A family tree, or pedigree chart, is a chart representing family relationships in a conventional tree structure. The more detailed family trees used in medicine and social work are known as genograms." Wikipedia
*~The tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Hebrew: עֵץ הַדַּעַת).
Tree of life (biblical) - Wikipedia
*^ "Âdam or Aadam (Arabic: آدم‎, romanized: ʾĀdam) is believed to have been the first human and nabi (Arabic: نَـبِي‎, prophet) on Earth, in Islam.[1] Adam's role as the father of the human race is looked upon by Muslims with reverence. Muslims also refer to his wife, Haawa (Arabic: حَـواء‎, Eve), as the "mother of mankind".[2] Muslims see Adam as the first Muslim on Earth, as the Quran states that all the Prophets preached the same faith of Islam (Arabic: إِسـلام‎, 'Submission' (to God)).[3]
In the Qur'an Adam is given the name by God known as the (Adam-I-Safi) or The Chosen One.[4][5]
ooooo
Adam was on earth, God taught him how to plant seeds and bake bread. This was to become the way of all of Adam's children.[12]"
Adam in Islam - Wikipedia
Yet the bible says Eve was the first woman and Adam the first man who were directly formed and created by God Personally. Not sure what parts of the bible your religion chooses to accept or not, I guess whatever suits your interests and beliefs. I seem to recall that Gabriel the angel in the bible was supposedly involved in your belief system. So you cherry pick Scripture to fit your wishes.
 
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