• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Secular Humanism

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
Humanism ... as in doing what we do for our peers and future ... Even as a secularist, or a non secularist there can be a bridge that connects ... like humanism. For the betterment and future betterment of our quality of life. The concept of gods or God needn''t apply at all, as we have life to guide us and all life entails, and everything we are individually and collectively. Life ... What will make it better? That's my question. What will make life better for everyone?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Humanism needs to make clearer the fact that we humans cannot for long flourish if we destroy the eco-systems our lives depend on. That is to say, environmental responsibility must be recognized as a humane and humanistic value.
 

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
Humanism needs to make clearer the fact that we humans cannot for long flourish if we destroy the eco-systems our lives depend on. That is to say, environmental responsibility must be recognized as a humane and humanistic value.
I guess, but that doesn't lend a great deal of faith in adaptation does it? I do believe we should live responsible, be considerate and think ahead, but then there's only so much foresight available. Like cows ... the fart and poop a lot which pollutes the air worse than cars n stuff. Are to do away with cows or refuse to feed them? I'm kidding of course, but ... There's only so much we can do. What about when the sun goes super nova? I mean, we can take precautions but in the end we have a stunning way of adapting to environment, and of course evolving according to need, so I tend to just have faith in life and try to live as happy as possible given my circumstances.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Humanism ... as in doing what we do for our peers and future ... Even as a secularist, or a non secularist there can be a bridge that connects ... like humanism. For the betterment and future betterment of our quality of life. The concept of gods or God needn''t apply at all, as we have life to guide us and all life entails, and everything we are individually and collectively. Life ... What will make it better? That's my question. What will make life better for everyone?

The poor sentence structure of this post makes it hard to respond.

But, let me just say this.
Objective morality is fundamentally selfish.
Recognizing that behaving in a certain way will probably result in a better life experience, for you, is the foundation of morality. A general term for this is "enlightened self-interest".

Secular Humanism is a more objective morality than Religious Morality, because it's based on evidence and reason as opposed to human beings making things up and attributing them to a fictional character in old books.

Secular morals are better than religious morals for the same basic reason that secular science is better than religious science. It's based on reality rather than opinion.
Tom
 

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
The poor sentence structure of this post makes it hard to respond.

But, let me just say this.
Objective morality is fundamentally selfish.
Recognizing that behaving in a certain way will probably result in a better life experience, for you, is the foundation of morality. A general term for this is "enlightened self-interest".

Secular Humanism is a more objective morality than Religious Morality, because it's based on evidence and reason as opposed to human beings making things up and attributing them to a fictional character in old books.

Secular morals are better than religious morals for the same basic reason that secular science is better than religious science. It's based on reality rather than opinion.
Tom


Exactly ... that's life! A huge melting pot of ideals and philosophies and cultures and lifestyles and what not. Life, it's all life. As for non secular ideals, I see a great deal of benefit in many of them. I enjoy theology. I enjoy philosophy. I could enjoy life more than I do, but life situations don't always cooperate or lend themselves to better quality. Old books like autobiographies or history books or are you speaking about religious texts? I mean, I enjoy history, civics, science, and other "old books". I enjoy religious texts also. Lot to garner from them all ... so many little nuggets, and gems, and, pearls to gain I find it a shame to not at least stick my nose in one every now and then. Religious morals ... Lets say you're from a region where old ways were to overpower and enslave ... Do you think a few religious morals would be beneficial then?
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Humanism ... as in doing what we do for our peers and future ... Even as a secularist, or a non secularist there can be a bridge that connects ... like humanism. For the betterment and future betterment of our quality of life. The concept of gods or God needn''t apply at all, as we have life to guide us and all life entails, and everything we are individually and collectively. Life ... What will make it better? That's my question. What will make life better for everyone?
We humans have been making moral progress. We are treating each other better now than at any time in our past.

Religions have had nothing to do with that. For example, the movements to abolish legal slavery and to give women and homosexuals equal rights are not supported by the sacred texts of religion.

Secular humanism, IMO, is an unnecessary response to the Christian brag that "Our morals are better than your morals!" The bragging aimed at non-believers.

BTW, I'm not implying that ALL Christians are guilty of this brag anymore than ALL atheists are guilty of bragging "We're smarter than you!"
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Religions have had nothing to do with that. For example, the movements to abolish legal slavery and to give women and homosexuals equal rights are not supported by the sacred texts of religion.

That statement is both arrogant and ignorant.
 

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
We humans have been making moral progress. We are treating each other better now than at any time in our past.

Religions have had nothing to do with that. For example, the movements to abolish legal slavery and to give women and homosexuals equal rights are not supported by the sacred texts of religion.

Secular humanism, IMO, is an unnecessary response to the Christian brag that "Our morals are better than your morals!" The bragging aimed at non-believers.

BTW, I'm not implying that ALL Christians are guilty of this brag anymore than ALL atheists are guilty of bragging "We're smarter than you!"

I'll disagree with your first statement. Religions have most certainly had something to do with this. Not just one, but many. The movement goes across the board. From both the secular world and non secular world. So, bragging rights don't truly belong to any single side. Do you have any idea what religious institutions donate for example? Food, clothing, funds, etc. The same is true for the other side ... People donate and help on all sides. Here's something some may not know. The porn industry even helps with donations and volunteer work. Again, no bragging rights ... just an acknowledgement that people of all walks of life help.

When it comes to morals ... they vary. Individuality is so important and acceptance of that fact and that we're not required to adopt the morals of others.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
I'll disagree with your first statement. Religions have most certainly had something to do with this. Not just one, but many. The movement goes across the board. From both the secular world and non secular world. So, bragging rights don't truly belong to any single side. Do you have any idea what religious institutions donate for example? Food, clothing, funds, etc. The same is true for the other side ... People donate and help on all sides. Here's something some may not know. The porn industry even helps with donations and volunteer work. Again, no bragging rights ... just an acknowledgement that people of all walks of life help.

When it comes to morals ... they vary. Individuality is so important and acceptance of that fact and that we're not required to adopt the morals of others.
Please read what I wrote again.

Religions have had nothing to do with that. For example, the movements to abolish legal slavery and to give women and homosexuals equal rights are not supported by the sacred texts of religion.

My examples, referring to the sacred texts, should tell you that I am referring to the doctrine, the teachings, of religions.

We humans, religious or not, have a conscience which guides us morally. So, when, say Catholics, make moral progress we ask: "Was their progress due to their religious teachings or because their conscience moved them to become better people?"

The movement to abolish slavery in the world started to gain momentum in about 1700. Yet a century and a half later, in 1866, the Catholic pope wrote that he could find nothing in "divine law" opposed to the buying, selling or trading of slaves. And, according to his Bible, he was right. But lay Catholics, being human and owning a conscience, favored the abolition of slavery anyway.

So, you can give religious groups credit for organizing charities. But when you do that you aren't making a valid counter-point to my argument that the sacred texts of religion have had no influence (neither positive nor negative) on humanity's moral progress.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I guess, but that doesn't lend a great deal of faith in adaptation does it? I do believe we should live responsible, be considerate and think ahead, but then there's only so much foresight available. Like cows ... the fart and poop a lot which pollutes the air worse than cars n stuff. Are to do away with cows or refuse to feed them? I'm kidding of course, but ... There's only so much we can do. What about when the sun goes super nova? I mean, we can take precautions but in the end we have a stunning way of adapting to environment, and of course evolving according to need, so I tend to just have faith in life and try to live as happy as possible given my circumstances.
There's not much we can do about the sun, but we can resolve to be non-tribal and respect the moral equality and human rights of everyone.

Just be nice. Don't harm others, and don't harm the planet, and yes, that might entail not eating the farting cows.:rolleyes:
 

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
Please read what I wrote again.

Religions have had nothing to do with that. For example, the movements to abolish legal slavery and to give women and homosexuals equal rights are not supported by the sacred texts of religion.

My examples, referring to the sacred texts, should tell you that I am referring to the doctrine, the teachings, of religions.

We humans, religious or not, have a conscience which guides us morally. So, when, say Catholics, make moral progress we ask: "Was their progress due to their religious teachings or because their conscience moved them to become better people?"

The movement to abolish slavery in the world started to gain momentum in about 1700. Yet a century and a half later, in 1866, the Catholic pope wrote that he could find nothing in "divine law" opposed to the buying, selling or trading of slaves. And, according to his Bible, he was right. But lay Catholics, being human and owning a conscience, favored the abolition of slavery anyway.

So, you can give religious groups credit for organizing charities. But when you do that you aren't making a valid counter-point to my argument that the sacred texts of religion have had no influence (neither positive nor negative) on humanity's moral progress.


A couple points: Charity in 1 Corinthians 13 ... also love your neighbor and moving on to Moses freeing the captives in Egypt, etc. So yeah, I can absolutely credit sacred text for philanthropy and the acts of charity and that they lead the adherents to help the world and those in need in general. All religious texts? I couldn't answer that one ... many I have not read. The bible? Certainly and I'll assume the qua ran also given one of my spiritual brothers uses the quran (in part) in his religion (Bahai) Faith.

So, it's not necessarily the texts that can be blamed for misguidance as they certainly lead to people helping people. I think by and large that that's the reason for them. By the way, I lean to the left ... far left of the right sheep side, but my roots are far right side. I'm a capricorn if that tells you anything. Anyway, people not helping people and people helping people boils down to choice, but you can't claim that sacred texts don't lead people to acts of altruism.
 

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
There's not much we can do about the sun, but we can resolve to be non-tribal and respect the moral equality and human rights of everyone.

Just be nice. Don't harm others, and don't harm the planet, and yes, that might entail not eating the farting cows.:rolleyes:


I like beef .. it's what's for dinner ... Sometimes. I try to be nice but when cornered I can get mean. I pick up my own messes and cigarette butts, and only toss one down when I'm pissed and feel disrespected by my immediate environment. Equality ... The power of eh? It's such a powerful and beautiful thing to aspire to achieve. It's a lot like awareness and education and understanding and wisdom and all the things that can help us become more effective in life.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
A couple points: Charity in 1 Corinthians 13 ... also love your neighbor and moving on to Moses freeing the captives in Egypt, etc. So yeah, I can absolutely credit sacred text for philanthropy and the acts of charity and that they lead the adherents to help the world and those in need in general. All religious texts? I couldn't answer that one ... many I have not read. The bible? Certainly and I'll assume the qua ran also given one of my spiritual brothers uses the quran (in part) in his religion (Bahai) Faith.

So, it's not necessarily the texts that can be blamed for misguidance as they certainly lead to people helping people. I think by and large that that's the reason for them. By the way, I lean to the left ... far left of the right sheep side, but my roots are far right side. I'm a capricorn if that tells you anything. Anyway, people not helping people and people helping people boils down to choice, but you can't claim that sacred texts don't lead people to acts of altruism.

No, you're mistaken. You can't credit the Bible with causing believers to perform charitable acts because humans Christian and non-Christian perform charitable acts. In other words, if those Christians had never heard of the Bible, they'd still be performing charitable acts. It's human nature.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
So, when, say Catholics, make moral progress we ask: "Was their progress due to their religious teachings or because their conscience moved them to become better people?"
Exactly.
The reason that Christians, over all, are somewhat superior to Muslims, overall, is simply because Christian culture has adopted far more secular morality than Islamic culture.
Not that the difference is huge, but it's there.
That's why Muslims are moving in droves to Christendom. Because Christians are less Christian than Muslims are Islamic.

Tom
 

ZenMonkey

St. James VII
No, you're mistaken. You can't credit the Bible with causing believers to perform charitable acts because humans Christian and non-Christian perform charitable acts. In other words, if those Christians had never heard of the Bible, they'd still be performing charitable acts. It's human nature.

I think I suggested that the bible leads to and points to and promotes acts of charity. Even arguing from an atheist pov, that much is clear.
 
Secular Humanism is a more objective morality than Religious Morality, because it's based on evidence and reason as opposed to human beings making things up and attributing them to a fictional character in old books.

It's no more objective than religious morality because it is really just a secularised version of liberal Christianity minus the god bits and the ritual.

The idea that it represents universal moral truths is one of the core legacies of Christianity (as is the concept of the secular itself).
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
Exactly.
The reason that Christians, over all, are somewhat superior to Muslims, overall, is simply because Christian culture has adopted far more secular morality than Islamic culture.
Not that the difference is huge, but it's there.
That's why Muslims are moving in droves to Christendom. Because Christians are less Christian than Muslims are Islamic.

Tom
I wouldn't read too much religious significance in the movement of refugees. Many Middle Easterners (not just Muslims, there are plenty of Christians fleeing from the Middle East as well) are moving to Europe because their homes are being torn apart by civil wars and oppressive dictatorships, with said wars and oppression often bankrolled by the world's global superpowers.

(Besides, the overwhelming majority of refugees are stuck in camps in predominantly Muslim countries anyway.)
 
Top