King Phenomenon
Well-Known Member
Of the dead they know nothing is in the Bible.
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Death in religions
- Thread starter King Phenomenon
- Start date
I didn’t know Jesus played football
That’s good to know because when you tell us ‘Jesus saves’ we need a little context.
Your post has no apparent relation to its title.
I believe people save themselves through virtuous actions. Jesus is just a good example amongst other good examples.
King Phenomenon
Well-Known Member
No doubt I believe the same thing But I think that having Jesus around is a pretty cool thing though
It doesn’t have to relate to the title it just makes sense for it to relate to the title.
That way people who are thinking to contribute can get an idea if the topic is of interest to them by looking to the title.
King Phenomenon
Well-Known Member
So basically I have to be a contributor as well if I so choose
King Phenomenon
Well-Known Member
Ill update it
Ok. So welcome to RF. Its a good idea to introduce yourself here.
Are you new to ReligiousForums.com?
In this part of the forum we can discuss but not debate:
The Interfaith Discussion subforum is for discussing and learning about different religions.
It is not for debating.
If you don't agree with what someone else has posted and want to challenge it, you need to start a thread in a debate section (e.g., Religious Debates, General Debates).
As per Rule 1, remember that you need to ask for permission to quote someone else's content in a new thread.
Reminder: No Debating in Interfaith Discussion
When posting we like people to put things in their own words rather than doing too much cutting and pasting from religious texts or books.
So we could discuss the concept of salvation and how that works in different faiths.
If you are posting to tell us we should all repent and become Christians that’s called proselytising and is against the rules.
King Phenomenon
Well-Known Member
thanx for the info
There is a heaven, but humans were never designed to live there.
The fact that some are chosen to rule with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom, in no way changes what God had planned for this earth all along. There was a derailment of God's plans and a need to put everything back on track. Jesus came to undo what the devil prompted Adam to do, so that "the meek" can "inherit the earth."
Humankind will inhabit this earth forever, because that was the Creator's first purpose. (Revelation 21:2-4; Isaiah 55:11) Most will get to do so by resurrection into a promised new earth (John 5:28-29; 2 Peter 3:13) The dead sleep peacefully in their graves until that time.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
I assume you are talking about (Ecc. 9:5). "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
The theme of (Ecclesiastes) is 'life under the sun'. That is a phrase you read constantly throughout (Ecclesiastes). Along with, 'all is vanity'.
Solomon, a man of God, who had turned and served other idols, (1 Kings 11:4), was bemoaning his existence in this life. He is not addressing the existence of Heaven. He was given wisdom by God, (2 Chron. 1: 11-12), and the book of (Proverbs) is attributed to him. Yet, alas, he became the very things he warned of in (Proverbs).
He is speaking of life lived out on this earth. Under the sun. When he says 'the dead know nothing' he is addressing life on this earth only. Thus at the end he states very clearly, (Ecc. 12:7), "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
Good-Ole-Rebel
Not everybody is into the afterlife, and in this post reformation world its possible to see that its not a requirement for being in Christ. Resurrection and repentance I view as the same thing. If Jesus talks about them this way then there is precedent for it. If repentance truly is the resurrection and if self denial is a requirement then it seems as if seeking an afterlife is not necessarily appropriate. The heavens in the canon tend to refer to something other than a different life or an afterlife.
Whether or not that is the case, Christians today should stop making it be all about an afterlife. Its not. Its about how you treat others and how responsible you are towards those who come both before and after you. Many of us have grown up thinking that the entire world would be set on a hot kettle for all of eternity, and there was no attempt to bring us forward to a deeper understanding of the gospel. In fact it doesn't matter whether you believe that you will be moving on to another life or not. Even so, I am always hearing that I don't accept the afterlife that I have somehow failed to believe. That seems like poor reasoning.
Also if somebody (most protestants) claims to be a bible believer then they are reconstructing a version of Christianity from texts. Its completely ridiculous to then turn around and insist upon medieval interpretations as authoritative.
So...where are all the dead, then?
When Solomon used this term, it meant what takes place in this world....whilst one is living this life, as you correctly mentioned. Being given God's wisdom however, did not reveal to him the outworking of God's eternal purpose for his creation. (All that would be revealed when Messiah came.) So his God-given wisdom heightened his observations of the futility of man's existence when death robbed him of everything at the end.
The Israelites at this point did not have any belief in an afterlife, (to which Solomon attested in Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10. King David also confirmed this in Psalm 146:4).....so he wrote in Ecclesiastes 3:19-20....
"for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust."
He lamented, that in death, we have no advantage over the animals. All have "one spirit" in that all breathe the same air and when their lives end, we "return to the dust", just like they do....as God said Adam would. (Genesis 3:19) But that is not what God purposed in the beginning. Death was not supposed to happen.
When Solomon wrote the Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, he was not at that time unfaithful to his God. Why would God use an unfaithful man to instruct his people?
In context 1 Kings 11:1-8 tells us.....
11 But King Solʹo·mon loved many foreign women besides the daughter of Pharʹaoh: Moʹab·ite, Amʹmon·ite, Eʹdom·ite, Si·doʹni·an, and Hitʹtite women. 2 They were from the nations about whom Jehovah had said to the Israelites: “You must not go in among them, and they should not come in among you, for they will surely incline your heart to follow their gods.” But Solʹo·mon clung to them and loved them. 3 And he had 700 wives who were princesses and 300 concubines, and his wives gradually inclined his heart. 4 In Solʹo·mon’s old age, his wives inclined his heart to follow other gods, and his heart was not complete with Jehovah his God like the heart of David his father. 5 And Solʹo·mon followed after Ashʹto·reth, the goddess of the Si·doʹni·ans, and Milʹcom, the disgusting god of the Amʹmon·ites. 6 And Solʹo·mon did what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and he did not follow Jehovah completely as David his father had done.
7 It was then that Solʹo·mon built a high place to Cheʹmosh, the disgusting god of Moʹab, on the mountain in front of Jerusalem and to Moʹlech, the disgusting god of the Amʹmon·ites. 8 That was what he did for all his foreign wives who were making sacrificial smoke and sacrificing to their gods."
It was towards the end of his life that Solomon succumbed to the influence of his foreign wives. This demonstrates that the wisdom he was given was lost due to his disobedience. Every instance of Israel's fall into false worship was a result of them going against God's commands. Obedience is all God requires of his servants....no exceptions. It shows us that even God-given wisdom is useless if one is not obedient.
Since Jews did not believe that life continued on in spirit form after death, I believe that this scripture has been grossly misinterpreted.
The "spirit" here is literally, the "breath" that animates humans and in fact all living things.
In Eden, when God created humans he brought them to life by breathing "spirit" (breath) into them. Since the Bible teaches resurrection, and not immortality of the soul, the "spirit" that figuratively returns to God is a return to this life on a "new earth" cleansed of all wickedness, where God will return their "spirit" (breath) and restore their lives in the place he created for them at the beginning.....right here on earth. (John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:2-4)
It is important to put all of the Bible's teachings into their proper context. Misinterpretation is leading people down the wrong path.
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Yes! With one difference: “Under the Sun” means life lived out on this Earth, currently.
But when Ephesians 1:10 is fulfilled, that won’t be the case.
You see, Under the Sun is not literal here. It actually refers to life without God, without His favor.
Think about Isaiah 11:6-9. Vs.9 says ‘the Earth will be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah...” It isn’t, right now. 1 John 5:19; cf. Hebrews 2:14.
Regarding the Sun being figurative: Isaiah 49:10 gives us some insight. This passage was quoted by the Apostle John @ Revelation 7:16-17. Vs.17 is further reiterated at Revelation 21:3-4, where ‘God’s tent is with mankind.” That is people here on Earth, the meek whom Jesus mentioned @ Matthew 5:5.
Better times certainly await!
Take care, my cousin.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
You ask why would God use an unfaithful man to instruct His people? Because just such a man was needed to write (Ecclesiastes). A man who had known God yet turned from God and was living out the results of that disobedience. A man whose eyes were focused more upon this life than life with God. The futility of life under the sun.
I don't discount the resurrections of the body. But (Ecc. 12:7) is not talking about resurrection. It is about our bodies going back to dust, and our spirit going back to God. The resurrections will occur in their right order. But when we die, our spirit goes back to God.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
What you say is certainly true about a life without God, or a life out of favor with God. But I see no reason to take away the literalness of 'under the sun'.
I think Solomon is addressing life under the sun, period, whether it pertains to the believer or non-believer. (Ecc. 9:2) "All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath"
Good-Ole-Rebel
Please define the Hebrew word "ruwach" (spirit) as it is used in Ecclesiastes 12:7. What returns to God is not what you think if you are suggesting that something conscious and alive returns to God.
If Solomon wrote his contributions to scripture whilst he was still a faithful servant of God, then you have no reason to claim that he was living out the results of his disobedience. Solomon was quite young when he gained the Kingship and he reigned for 40 years......only in his old age was he inclined by his foreign wives to separate his heart from his God. He did not forsake true worship completely but apparently tried some kind of interfaith to appease his wives. God found this unacceptable and raised up resistance to Solomon.