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Islamaphobia

firedragon

Veteran Member
1. I haven’t done research on it because it just seems like common sense that if a society exists where non-Muslim ideas are actively polemicised and critics and propagates of competing ideas are silenced under blasphemy laws, Islam monopolises the ideas marketplace. Compound this by forcing retention of converts who try Islam out to find its not for them and you have compulsion in religion.

2. I haven’t done the calculations myself, but in the video
the author calculates the global average of Muslims who believe in death for apostasy at 31%. If you don’t trust his calculations the statistics are available here Muslim Beliefs About Sharia

3. The OP was entitled “Islamophobia” I’m pointing out that there is more to be concerned about in Islamic society than suicide bombing alone.

1. You have done research? Whats the sample size? Whats the hypothesis and what was the size of the group you took for the focus study?

2. Right. So Pew says 31% percent believes in apostasy laws. I dont know you at least gave some percentage so I believe you. And I dont deny that. How is that relevant to the OP?

3. You have not understood the OP. Even if the Islam is a monstrous religion, yet, the OP is irrelevant to all of this.

Read and understand again.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
All Muslims love to tell me:
Allah is God.
Muhammad is His Prophet
Koran is the word of God given to Muhammad
Koran is infallible and the Truth

Suggesting that whatever Muhammad has said is the word of Allah and is true

That same Muhammad also has said, when asked, "Apostates should be killed"

And below survey in 2014 states that a third believe in the death penalty for leaving Islam




And, why should I believe the Koran to be true, if other written quotes about Muhammad are false?

On this forum I saw last week a Muslim stating that he believes Apostates should be killed

And then you ask me, being not a Muslim, why I question this?

This is a question that is bothering me maybe the most !!!

Well, here you have my answer

Irrelevant mate. You are not even giving reasons for you to pick that particular ahadith? Is there a difficulty in understanding this simple question?

Here you go again.

Right. Why is it so straight forward? What is your justification? What is your reasoning?

Do you just believe some stories blindly?

I am not trying to twist you around, I am asking you so that you will see clearly.

Lol. Let me ask you something. You are quoting Buhari right? You know that Buhari had 100,000 (more) ahadith and in his books now there are over 7000 ahadith.

Do you think all of them are absolutely Muhammeds real narrations or only this one you picked?

(BTW, none of this is relevant to the OP)
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
If you read the OP, you note that I didnt use the word Islamaphobia to you.

Also, with the type of argument you are making about "wide paintbrush", you are also using your argument against the word as a "wide paintbrush". I can accuse you also of "attempting to steer us away from the hole....".

Id rather be specific in analysis. So lets practice what we preach. Dont use "wide paint brushes".

Ok I'll pinpoint,Sharia hudood punishment for apostacy adultery theft are disgusting and along with slavery portrays this archaic religion for what it is and that's man made.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Well I happen to find your right wing philosophy as posted in many threads as disgusting.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Below is not talking negative about Islam. It's just a reality check about certain facts certain humans do in name of Islam and Koran

There is a big difference between: a)Questioning Islam/Koran + b)Questioning Acts done in name of Islam/Koran

Below I just stick to the Green Part:

The fact is that it is irrelevant what the "technical details" are, or even how shariah law is supposed to work.

What matters, is how it practically works. How it is actually implemented in the countries where it is.
Thank you. I like that you are so straightforward here

"Technical details" to hide behind, I call putting a veil over non-Muslims ... called Hijab.

And the fact of the matter is, that in EVERY country where shariah laws are active, or claimed to be active, we see extreme crimes against humanity, extreme violations of human rights, extreme bullying and prosecution of women, homosexuals, etc.
"Violence ruled by Sharia" tucking away, I call putting a veil over non-Muslims ... called Niqab

What we actually see in shariah ruled countries is barbarism, brutality, crimes against humanity, oppression, etc.
"Crimes against humanity" not wanting to see, I call putting a veil over non-Muslims ... called Burka

It is not "islamophobic" to state that. It's a statistical fact of the muslim world. Stating the facts is not expressing a phobia. It is just stating the facts.
"Islamophobic" to impose on non-Muslims, this I call the veil of ... Gaslighting ... make us doubt our own perception and the reality

I can't imagine a single rational person who thinks stuff like freedom, emancipation, human rights etc are important, who would want to live in such a country.

Would you want to live in such a country?
I sure wouldn't.
"Reality Check" for non-Muslims, this I call "the veil removed"
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Title = Islamophobia. So this is relevant to the title IMO

Why? If a hadith tells that Muhammad said that Apostates should be killed

Then this has to do with Islamophobia

Because we can discard the word Islamophobia and call it a real threat for Apostates

Not really. Its not relevant. You should read the whole thing, not just the title.

But thats fine.
I read the whole thing.

I just give you "small bites at a time", as to not disturb your digestion

The title was sufficient to answer the first mistake you made saying "(BTW, none of this is relevant to the OP)"
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Below is not talking negative about Islam. It's just a reality check about certain facts certain humans do in name of Islam and Koran

There is a big difference between: a)Questioning Islam/Koran + b)Questioning Acts done in name of Islam/Koran

Below I just stick to the Green Part:


Thank you. I like that you are so straightforward here

"Technical details" to hide behind, I call putting a veil over non-Muslims ... called Hijab.


"Violence ruled by Sharia" tucking away, I call putting a veil over non-Muslims ... called Niqab


"Crimes against humanity" not wanting to see, I call putting a veil over non-Muslims ... called Burka


"Islamophobic" to impose on non-Muslims, this I call the veil of ... Gaslighting ... make us doubt our own perception and the reality


"Reality Check" for non-Muslims, this I call "the veil removed"

I think your responses are confusing. I'm not even sure if you are agreeing with what I'm saying or not.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
... this archaic religion for what it is and that's man made.

Like any other, eh?

I feel like many of the anti-Islam arguments would be sound if they were also applied to Christianity. But, since there are both many good Christian folk living in America (my country) and good Islamic folk, I reserve my anti-religious arguments when it pertains to policy or treatment of people rather than a broad argument against one group (who face discrimination in America).
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Brother. There is nothing about death penalty for homosexuality in any Shariah. You know why there is none? Because they cant find anything to justify their persecution. Many countries persecute homosexuals. But not based on Shariah. Its based on Fikh and they have intentionally injected the law without any basis.

Do you think that someone who struggles with Islamic countries using the death penalty being applied for homosexual acts, apostasy or blasphemy cares whether its sharia or Islamic jurisprudence? I understand the distinction but the result is the same whether the execution is due to sharia or fikq. The person dies.

You see brother. My comment was about Shariah and homosexuality. Not about what people do. And I am responding to this question though its completely irrelevant to the OP out of respect to a question.

What people do has everything to do with Islamophobia and is completely relevant. Actions speak louder than words. When those planes flew into the twin towers and the world watched in horror it was incomprehensible and shocking to the core for many of us. When we found out about Al Queda and how the Taliban/Afghanistan was providing shelter, there were hard questions to be asked of us all about the nature of Islam. So we can shrug it off, and say it isn’t true Islam. We can dismiss the death penalty and corporal punishments. Ignore the fatwas on those who insult Islam. Its not the true Islam. Clearly its part of what Islam has become today.

Alright. Think of this flip side. In my OP I have said that Islamic Shariah in the last Islamic khaliphate in the mid 19th century legalised homosexuality. Can you think and tell me how come you have not even touched that? When did the United States legalise homosexuality? Just think.

You know why? Because there is nothing in any Shariah about killing homosexuals. Thats why the Shariah of the Ottoman Empire in 1858 gave full homosexual rights.

I think you will have an uphill battle arguing how enlightened the Ottoman Empire was in the nineteenth century but that really is off topic. What people care the most about is what’s happening now.

You see brother. The OP has nothing to do with saying "Shariah is great". Thats a blanket statement and is absurd to make such statements. Neither is the flip side.

Islamophobia has everything to do with perception. Does it exist? Of course. Is it a problem? 51 innocent Muslims lost their lives because of it in my country 6 months ago. Islamophobia was no doubt part of the war on terror and the Iraq war. Its become a dominant thread in politics in the Western world. So it affects Muslims and it affects all of us.

So you can respond to another post by saying how irrelevant I’m being. I’ve read your OP. What I’m trying to do is understand what Islamophobia really is and more importantly what needs to be done to eradicate it? What absolutely needs to happen is Muslims and non-Muslims working closely together and talking to each other. It requires intellectual honesty on both sides.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I read the whole thing.

I just give you "small bites at a time", as to not disturb your digestion

The title was sufficient to answer the first mistake you made saying "(BTW, none of this is relevant to the OP)"

If you dont understand the non relevance, you haven't understood. Fine.

And you still have not responded to why you only picked one particular hadith to believe as 'true saying of the prophet'.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I think we need to be having a much more intelligent and constructive dialogue about what Islam is and isn't. On the one hand there is hatred and a distorted understanding of Islam. On the other hand, there is naivety about some of the less pleasant aspects of Islam such as Sharia law. Many Muslims hold strong ideas about Sharia law. I was naïve until it was recently highlighted to me by this Pew Survey. There are aspects of Sharia law that are abhorrent to Westerners such as myself.

Muslim Beliefs About Sharia

Is that Islamophobia on my part?
NO, that is NOT Islamophobia ... don't let Muslim Apologists veil you with a Burka:p (but you won't, as you are from New-Zealand; best with fact)

Very good link. I read yesterday almost all of it. Lots of good info about how the average Muslim thinks about Islam/Koran/Sharia

It shows that "non-Muslim their Islamophobia" is quite spot on to "Muslim their Reality" IMO

Might be a percentage more or less, but the big picture I already had, is quite correct

Was quite a cold shower though, to see the real numbers black on white, I must admit
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Brother. A very beautiful post. Thank you so much for telling the truth.

I agree that It’s disobedience to the laws of God and religion which alone are to blame for wars and destruction because all religions in their original teachings teach love and peace.

One other important point I wish to emphasise to one and all here is that the Islam being taught and propagated today by clergy and scholars is not necessarily that which was taught by Muhammad and the Quran,

Many laws have no basis in the texts at all and are human made laws with some even contrary to the true spirit of Islam which is peace. Many laws were created by clergy and called shariah but in fact like some of the sacraments of the church bear no semblance to the original text.

In such a circumstance I myself only term Islam what is in the Quran itself not what clergy have contrived. But the west has not learned yet to distinguish between the Islam of God found in the Quran and the Islam of the clergy which comes from men.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Do you think that someone who struggles with Islamic countries using the death penalty being applied for homosexual acts, apostasy or blasphemy cares whether its sharia or Islamic jurisprudence? I understand the distinction but the result is the same whether the execution is due to sharia or fikq. The person dies.

Nope. But irrelevant. To me, this is all straw man fallacies. And with this kind of argument one could bring a whole bag full of "If this, why not that"s.
What people do has everything to do with Islamophobia and is completely relevant.

Sorry. They are not. Not to this topic.

I think you will have an uphill battle arguing how enlightened the Ottoman Empire was in the nineteenth century but that really is off topic. What people care the most about is what’s happening now.

You want to generalise everything to everything we can have a discussion on that. Please open a new thread. Good.
Islamophobia has everything to do with perception. Does it exist? Of course. Is it a problem? 51 innocent Muslims lost their lives because of it in my country 6 months ago. Islamophobia was no doubt part of the war on terror and the Iraq war. Its become a dominant thread in politics in the Western world. So it affects Muslims and it affects all of us.

So you can respond to another post by saying how irrelevant I’m being. I’ve read your post. What I’m trying to do is understand what Islamophobia really is and more importantly what needs to be done to eradicate it? What absolutely needs to happen is Muslims and non-Muslims working closely together and talking to each other. It requires intellectual honesty on both sides.

Okay. Let me respond directly again.

Irrelevant.

And you can have your intellectual honesty argument again. This is the internet brother and we of course have seen it all right? So no worries.

Again, none of this is relevant to the topic of an industry built on Islamaphobia. You wish to discuss theology of Islam and how murderous it is, please open another thread. All good. You wish to discuss the Bible and Christianity, atheism, whatever you want, please go ahead and open another thread. I was only being respectful trying to answer your queries about "Shariah" which you have not even began to explore because you are too busy looking to say a lot of things, not discuss and understand one thing properly.

One topic at a time. When you go all over the place trying your best to demonise a whole religion and its adherents without getting to the depth one particular topic first it shows a lot of things and its mostly useless. It is like writing a whole book about a million things shallowly without having depth in nothing.

The Buddha said supposedly, "build one six foot well, not six, one foot wells".
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Like any other, eh?

I feel like many of the anti-Islam arguments would be sound if they were also applied to Christianity. But, since there are both many good Christian folk living in America (my country) and good Islamic folk, I reserve my anti-religious arguments when it pertains to policy or treatment of people rather than a broad argument against one group (who face discrimination in America).

Like any sure,Islam was as much political as religious though.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Wrong. And facts are against you though you speak of facts. I didn't expect this kind of ignorance here to be frank.
Be my guest. I do not speak lightly, and I have no hint of those supposed facts that you seem to believe to exist.
 
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