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Is Romans 2:4 referring to Jesus?(Jesus believers only

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
It refers to the father of Jesus.

" Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" Rom 2:4

It's fine saying it refers to the Father or the Father and the Son, more explicitly to the Father
and the believer is changed to be more patient as well

“And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.” 2 Thessalonians 3:5.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
" Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

It's fine saying it refers to the Father or the Father and the Son.
Maybe it should say: "not knowing the goodness of trinity leads to repentance"?:D
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
" Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" Rom 2:4

It's fine saying it refers to the Father or the Father and the Son, more explicitly to the Father
and the believer is changed to be more patient as well

“And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.” 2 Thessalonians 3:5.
Are you just interpreting those because the words are different, so you presume a differentiation? Your interpretation seems to be a 'more likely', or more emphasis, word wise?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Can you explain your reasoning for that interpretation?
The context... and the verse itself.
Romans 2:1-6 NWT
1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are, if you judge; for when you judge another, you condemn yourself, because you who judge practice the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment is in harmony with truth, against those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose, O man, that while you judge those who practice such things and yet you do them, you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, because you do not know that God in his kindness is trying to lead you to repentance? 5 But according to your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and of the revealing of God’s righteous judgment. 6 And he will pay back to each one according to his works:

It's not an interpretation, by the way. It is what it is.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
The context... and the verse itself.
Romans 2:1-6 NWT
1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are, if you judge; for when you judge another, you condemn yourself, because you who judge practice the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment is in harmony with truth, against those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose, O man, that while you judge those who practice such things and yet you do them, you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, because you do not know that God in his kindness is trying to lead you to repentance? 5 But according to your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and of the revealing of God’s righteous judgment. 6 And he will pay back to each one according to his works:

It's not an interpretation, by the way. It is what it is.
Actually that is an interpretation, however, noted.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Can you explain why you interpret that , that way?

Also, can you describe 'demiurge', and it's context, to the Bible?
Paul divides all souls in two groups (1 Cor 2) Psychic - soul - natural and Pneumatic - spiritual. Psychic have no siritual undersranding it neans they do not see or worship True God , Who is Spirit, those people see demiurge (Paul also calls it Creature) as true god. In Rom. 2 Paul addressed non Spiritual people, who do not understand True God, Spiritual Father of Christ Jesus. Ref. The Demiurge in Valentinianism - Valentinus and the Valentinian Tradition
Note that Paul was a proto - Valentinian Gnostic, not Sethian.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Paul divides all souls in two groups (1 Cor 2) Psychic - soul - natural and Pneumatic - spiritual. Psychic have no siritual undersranding it neans they do not see or worship True God , Who is Spirit, those people see demiurge (Paul also calls it Creature) as true god. In Rom. 2 Paul addressed non Spiritual people, who do not understand True God, Spiritual Father of Christ Jesus. Ref. The Demiurge in Valentinianism - Valentinus and the Valentinian Tradition
Note that Paul was a proto - Valentinian Gnostic, not Sethian.
Who would be, according to your configuration, the 'demiurge'? In other words, 'demiurge', isn't in the Bible, who would be the 'demiurge', in the Bible?
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The theistic reference, there, is that referring to Jesus?

Romans 2:4

"Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, because you do not know that God in his kindness is trying to lead you to repentance?"

Each of those things is a description of the Father, mentioned in other scripture.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Who would be, according to your configuration, the 'demiurge'? In other words, 'demiurge', isn't in the Bible, who would be the 'demiurge', in the Bible?
Demure is God that Natural, Psychic People worship, Creator God, e.g. One represented by Moses, it is what Psychic sees as God.
12"Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit."
22"Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things." This is description of Paul's Demiurge, not real True God but representation of God by psychic mind.
21"that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. " "Creation" of Sophia is Demiurge , God that people who are not capable understand Spirit see. It is not a Spiritual entity (as True God of Christ) but the way psychic mind create understanding of God. Resurrection of the dead is when psychic mind becomes pneumatic (1 Cor 15).
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Demure is God that Natural, Psychic People worship, Creator God, e.g. One represented by Moses, it is what Psychic sees as God.
12"Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit."
22"Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things." This is description of Paul's Demiurge, not real True God but representation of God by psychic mind.
21"that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. " "Creation" of Sophia is Demiurge , God that people who are not capable understand Spirit see. It is not a Spiritual entity (as True God of Christ) but the way psychic mind create understanding of God. Resurrection of the dead is when psychic mind becomes pneumatic (1 Cor 15).
I'm not sure equating 'form god', like Jesus, is the same as weird idols or hideous creatures, however, the 'idea', might be there, albiet not directly, concerning that. Since you seemed to be saying it didn't mean Jesus, because of the demiurge? So that didn't seem totally clear. However, there is that.

[As I do have 'form god', aspect to my beliefs, I can't agree with the generalization, you have presented.
 
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leov

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure equating 'form god', like Jesus, is the same as weird idols or hideous creatures, however, the 'idea', might be there, albiet not directly, concerning that. Since you seemed to be saying it didn't mean Jesus, because of the demiurge? So that didn't seem totally clear. However, there is that.

[As I do have 'form god', aspect to my beliefs, I can't agree with the generalization, you have presented.
This the only way to understand Paul. If you have God you understand ,it is the way it suppose to be. You understand God according your spiritual level. We are on the path of evolution of consciousness .The worst thing is a dogma which does work well with evolution. Read Story of Prodigal Son carefully, it explains the map.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
This the only way to understand Paul. If you have God you understand ,it is the way it suppose to be. You understand God according your spiritual level. We are on the path of evolution of consciousness .The worst thing is a dogma which does work well with evolution. Read Story of Prodigal Son carefully, it explains the map.
Now you have gone into theoretical ideas, associations, that I disagree with, so forth.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Now you have gone into theoretical ideas, associations, that I disagree with, so forth.
I do not find it very unusual. What is your take.? I hope you understand Prodigal Son, which , I think, important to get understanding of Paul's Gnosticism.
 
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