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Brexit in a nutshell

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Were that the case, you should support the campaign for the People's Vote. The 2016 referendum was just too incomplete, as well as too ambiguous far as its consequences go.

It's interesting this "people's vote",the party without intention of having one is ahead in the polls so if there were a general election which I believe there will be and as forcast Boris Johnson's party gets a majority that's pretty much a people's vote.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
It's interesting this "people's vote",the party without intention of having one is ahead in the polls so if there were a general election which I believe there will be and as forcast Boris Johnson's party gets a majority that's pretty much a people's vote.
If the polls are correct, the last I heard the Tories were on 32% - 16 points less than the Remain vote. If that's a majority and a People's Vote - "Beam me up, Scotty"
Political trackers (9-10 Sept update) | YouGov

There is little chance of any party being able to form a Government on their own after a future election
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It's interesting this "people's vote",the party without intention of having one is ahead in the polls so if there were a general election which I believe there will be and as forcast Boris Johnson's party gets a majority that's pretty much a people's vote.
I have no idea of what you mean, since there is no obvious correspondence between your blanks and known entities.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
If the polls are correct, the last I heard the Tories were on 32% - 16 points less than the Remain vote. If that's a majority and a People's Vote - "Beam me up, Scotty"
Political trackers (9-10 Sept update) | YouGov

There is little chance of any party being able to form a Government on their own after a future election

There's not much choice out there let's face it,the liberals have thrown democracy out of the window,I tonic for a party with "Democratic" in they're title,Labour,lol possibly the worst labour party I've ever known or the brexit party who I think will draw votes so my tip is the Tories riding on the back of democracy spin,gotta love our politics not.
 
Still not clear what the practical downside would be of a "united states of europe".

Scale mostly, increase size and complexity of any 'project' it becomes exponentially more difficult to manage (see Euro v national currencies for example). Diseconomy of scale, muddled compromises based on horse trading, unintended consequences increase and effects become less predictable, inadequacies of leadership and decision-making magnified, etc.

Reduction of diversity makes systems fragile as the scale of errors is magnified and 'firebreaks' are removed.

Reduction of diversity reduces the potential to find better solutions as fewer options are tried.

Lack of Europe wide public sphere means lack of democratic accountability with different countries living in significantly different political realities.

Centralising power incentivises lobbyists/special interest groups to influence legislation.

Nationalism will likely increase as countries perceive they are getting a raw deal while others are getting favourable treatment, or countries feel their values are being subordinated to the values of others.

Power will be moved much further from the people and political leaders will be increasingly detached from those they are supposed to represent and the consequences of their decisions.

Top down attempts to remake (large parts of) the world don't have a great track record of succeeding and more often make things worse.

Erosion of different cultures makes the world a duller place (and a successful US of E would require this)

I could go on...

What do you think the advantages are?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
There's not much choice out there let's face it,the liberals have thrown democracy out of the window,I tonic for a party with "Democratic" in they're title,Labour,lol possibly the worst labour party I've ever known or the brexit party who I think will draw votes so my tip is the Tories riding on the back of democracy spin,gotta love our politics not.
It is hardly "democratic" to betray their own responsibilities as MPs, which include considering what they consider to be better for their constituencies and for the UK.

Labour is indeed in a confused situation. I wish Jeremy Corbyn stopped being so ambiguous and accepted already that he ought to campaign for Remain by way of the People's Vote referendum.

The Brexit party is obscene. No one should give an ear to Nigel Farage.

The Tories are dying, even I can see that. They are harming the UK enormously by keeping their grab in political power at this late time.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
It is hardly "democratic" to betray their own responsibilities as MPs, which include considering what they consider to be better for their constituencies and for the UK.

Labour is indeed in a confused situation. I wish Jeremy Corbyn stopped being so ambiguous and accepted already that he ought to campaign for Remain by way of the People's Vote referendum.

The Brexit party is obscene. No one should give an ear to Nigel Farage.

The Tories are dying, even I can see that. They are harming the UK enormously by keeping their grab in political power at this late time.

The Left like to silence the opposition whereas the Right are content to allow the Left to keep digging their hole.

The Right believes everyone should be given an ear.

How can the Tories be accused of keeping their grab in political power when they keep requesting a General Election?

Can you name any dictators past or present that want General Elections?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The Left like to silence the opposition whereas the Right are content to allow the Left to keep digging their hole.

The Right believes everyone should be given an ear

More like the right welcomes smear, lies and denial.

How can the Tories be accused of keeping their grab in political power when they keep requesting a General Election?

Which world are you living at? There are two windows of opportunity when they did in the last three and a half years. The most recent one is just shameful.

Can you name any dictators past or present that want General Elections?
Actually, I can. That is a trademark of several, including Stroessner.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
More like the right welcomes smear, lies and denial.



Which world are you living at? There are two windows of opportunity when they did in the last three and a half years. The most recent one is just shameful.


Actually, I can. That is a trademark of several, including Stroessner.

Right welcomes discourse in favour of the Lefts use of their de-platforming techniques.

How can offering the people a free vote over who should rule them be called shameful?

How can you possibly compare the UK with a South American republic and expect to be taken seriously?
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
LibDems will have my vote at the next election

The Lib Dems have proved themselves to be as mad as a barrel of frogs.

Chuka is putting a brave face on it but he must be thinking that he has jumped out of the frying pan into the fire.

He is their political prisoner because he would lose all credibility if he jumped ship again. How many parties has he been a member of recently?

Even the leader of the communist Green Party has called the Lib Dems undemocratic.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
The Lib Dems have proved themselves to be as mad as a barrel of frogs.

Chuka is putting a brave face on it but he must be thinking that he has jumped out of the frying pan into the fire.

He is their political prisoner because he would lose all credibility if he jumped ship again. How many parties has he been a member of recently?

Even the leader of the communist Green Party has called the Lib Dems undemocratic.
And the Tory Party is sane!!
The Brexit Party is sane !!!!

Labour is sane?!!

It is called politics, they are all unhinged, some, (I'm looking at Johnson and Farage in particular) are more unhinged than others
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
And the Tory Party is sane!!
The Brexit Party is sane !!!!

Labour is sane?!!

It is called politics, they are all unhinged, some, (I'm looking at Johnson and Farage in particular) are more unhinged than others

So far, Johnson and Farage in particular, are not trying to throw democracy under the bus.

If only you could say the same about Swinson and Chuka.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
So far, Johnson and Farage in particular, are not trying to throw democracy under the bus.

If only you could say the same about Swinson and Chuka.

What planet are you living on?

Bois the Liar, who was elected by an unrepresentative 0.2% of the electorate, has shut down the properly elected Parliament to avoid scrutiny of his position to potentially force through a no-deal, for which he has no mandate (as even Gove previously admitted).

I have my doubts about the LibDems decision but if they were to win a majority (not likely but who can tell?), that would give them a mandate to carry out their manifesto pledges. That's flawed (because of FPtP) but it's a hell of a lot more democratic than what Boris the Liar is doing.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
So far, Johnson and Farage in particular, are not trying to throw democracy under the bus.

If only you could say the same about Swinson and Chuka.
Suspending Parliament is democratic????
Lying about leaving EU benefits is democratic?
Cheating in the election is democratic?

You live in a fantasy world.
 
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