Why Bahai

[TransmutingSoul]

With all honesty, your comments are way too vague. I prefer direct references to the direct sources and analytic discussions.

You have been very courteous and decent and I respect that.

I shall leave it at that.

Peace.

No worries, thank you.

It has been the Muslim way to have great debates about religion. Many of the early followers were of course Muslim before Baha'i and they could not be beaten in these debates. Most of them were killed.

Thus in the end, what was the point of the debate? One's heart is looking or it is not. A blacksmith can teach the greatest scholar with the simplest explanation if Truth is imparted.

Otherwise it is words that ends in words.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

No worries, thank you.

It has been the Muslim way to have great debates about religion. Many of the early followers were of course Muslim before Baha'i and they could not be beaten in these debates. Most of them were killed.

Thus in the end, what was the point of the debate? One's heart is looking or it is not. A blacksmith can teach the greatest scholar with the simplest explanation if Truth is imparted.

Otherwise it is words that ends in words.

Regards Tony

Peace.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You clearly do not know about your own religion.

Baha'i men may not grow their hair below the ear lobe.

Now, if you just confirm that you knew nothing about this then we'll educate you about this Baha'i rule.

This law is yet to be implemented, it is not yet known what the details of law may be.

Whatever they are, I would implement them immediately.

Thus you will not find the required details on this law.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Buddha never said that he will return. "Gatey Gatey .." emphasizes that. Reincarnation in Buddhism is different from what we have in Hinduism. Only 'karmas' remain. The person does not come back, because the 'personhood' has no substance (Anatta).

Yes I also see the person of flesh does not come back.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

What Quran verse are you speaking of?

One example is Surah 24. Verses 2-34 Muhammad speaks of morality, particularly sexual morality beginning with a strongly worded admonition:

The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

Then verse 35 moves suddenly to a very different theme in a different style to the parable of the light,

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The example of His light is like a niche within which is a lamp, the lamp is within glass, the glass as if it were a pearly [white] star lit from [the oil of] a blessed olive tree, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost glow even if untouched by fire. Light upon light. Allah guides to His light whom He wills. And Allah presents examples for the people, and Allah is Knowing of all things.

 

[firedragon]

One example is Surah 24. Verses 2-34 Muhammad speaks of morality, particularly sexual morality beginning with a strongly worded admonition:

The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

Then verse 35 moves suddenly to a very different theme in a different style to the parable of the light,

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The example of His light is like a niche within which is a lamp, the lamp is within glass, the glass as if it were a pearly [white] star lit from [the oil of] a blessed olive tree, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost glow even if untouched by fire. Light upon light. Allah guides to His light whom He wills. And Allah presents examples for the people, and Allah is Knowing of all things.

Okay. Now I understand what you said.

1. The kithab I akdhas is not of the same genre as the Quran. So if you look at the books from a satellite view only you will see the patterns. So if you read the whole of your holy book, you will see the patterns and this verse doesnt match. But yet, i am no scholar of the kithab I akdhas so it was just my opinion.

2. The original manuscript of the kithab I akdhas ends one verse prior. It's written fully in pages and if you look at the end you can see easily that it ends at the verse that speaks about the maturity of human kind. So the opium verse definitely looks like an addiction. But yet again, i am no scholar of the manuscripts so maybe you have another one. I am not referring to a manuscript parchment or anything like that. Not fragments. I mean the full book. It ends with the verse, then begins another phase.

Hope you understand. I understand your point. But it's not valid brother.

 

[arthra]

What I would like is brother for you to give me direct references and answers. But, I shall try and read this book one day.

Yes and thanks for your response.... The book is well documented and has a fine glossary. I think you'll find it worth your while to obtain a copy or check your library and review it!

Buddha Maitrya-Amitabha has appeared (Book, 1976) [WorldCat.org]

Fozdar also has a paper he submitted "The revivification of the Buddha's Dharma" that is online and can be downloaded:

The Revivification of the Buddha's Dharma


You can also read a brief essay at
Buddhism and the Bahá'í Faith

 

[CG Didymus]

It is just so much easier to love everyone, accept, even cherish all the differences, rather than to try to make everything the same. I get along perfectly well with Christians, with Muslims, with atheists. There is simply no need to go tell others you believe just as they do, when it's so blatantly obvious you don't. It is just belief, after all. Trying to incorporate people in this way, by telling then how they think, just turns everyone away, doesn't pull them any closer at all. It truly defeats its supposed purpose.

But that isn't about to happen in this situation.

When I first learned about the Baha'i Faith in the 70's, I didn't know what people in other religions believed. I took what I was being told as the truth. Then, during the "Jesus Freak" movement, a friend of mine "found" Jesus. I went with him to Bible studies and found out that it was far different than what Baha'is told me about Christianity. After a few more years, I went into a Jewish bookstore and asked them... "If all these other religions say they came from you guys, why then, don't you guys believe them?" They told me and gave some books on how Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies about being the Messiah. And I completely agree with them. But then, I can see why Christians think he was the Messiah. It's all in how a person wants to see it.

Baha'is see it so clearly, Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ and Buddha, and Krishna, and everybody else. Why can't we see it? Maybe it ain't all that clear.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Okay. Now I understand what you said.

1. The kithab I akdhas is not of the same genre as the Quran. So if you look at the books from a satellite view only you will see the patterns. So if you read the whole of your holy book, you will see the patterns and this verse doesnt match. But yet, i am no scholar of the kithab I akdhas so it was just my opinion.

2. The original manuscript of the kithab I akdhas ends one verse prior. It's written fully in pages and if you look at the end you can see easily that it ends at the verse that speaks about the maturity of human kind. So the opium verse definitely looks like an addiction. But yet again, i am no scholar of the manuscripts so maybe you have another one. I am not referring to a manuscript parchment or anything like that. Not fragments. I mean the full book. It ends with the verse, then begins another phase.

Hope you understand. I understand your point. But it's not valid brother.

Are you referring to the text of the Kitab-i-Aqdas itself or the notes section? The notes section ends by referring to the maturity of mankind. The text does not.

 

[CG Didymus]

Hi CG.

I think what we are appealing for people to do in order to reconcile their differences and live in harmony and peace is to accept our past, each other’s history and culture. If we can accept or appreciate that there is truth in all religions not just our own then it will go a long way to peace. There is truth in every religion, in every human being. Different religions express truth different ways and place emphasis.on different qualities.

For example Jesus focused on love and forgiveness while Buddha mindfulness and meditation, Krishna that we are spirit not our bodies and detachment, Baha’u’llah on unity. So if we made one Bible in our hearts and in it love, detachment, unity, mindfulness and so on then we stand to benefit.

Baha’is need to learn the Christian concept of love and the Buddhist concept of mindfulness and meditation and they can learn unity from us, None of us has all or exclusive absolute knowledge.

By asking me these good questions you are teaching me and helping me to become a better person. We cannot lose sight of what all the religions teach. To do so would be spiritual suicide. But we do need to build on our past knowledge and add to it the concept of the oneness of mankind so as to end discrimination and prejuduces and establish peace.

None of us have absolute truth not the Baha’is or anyone only God. All we have is the collective knowledge and wisdom of our past and some new concepts Baha’u’llah has brought specifically for this age to add to our accumulated knowledge not replace it and in the future as we develop and advance we will attain greater heights spiritually but we need each other. We are all parts of one great whole.

We can only achieve peace and happiness if we work together in harmony. If we cut up the human body it ceases to function so we need the disjointed body of humanity to become whole and healthy and begin to function as it was meant to.

Only ego prevents us from all dropping our prejudices towards one another’s faith and accept all truth no matter where it comes from.

I'm fine with Baha'is living up to their highest ideals and goals. Unfortunately, that includes "teaching" others about the new message from God. And, unfortunately, it contradicts what people in the other religions think is true.

Can a Baha'i honestly go to a church or temple of another religion and say that they believe the same as those people? No, Baha'is don't believe in many of the doctrines of the other religions. That is all a lot of us have been saying. Baha'is believe in a Baha'i interpretation of all those other religions. Which means, Baha'is don't agree with what those people think is true. And on and on it goes. Baha'is act as if they do. And we keep telling them, no you don't. And you don't.

Go to a Protestant Christian church and tell them that Jesus is physically dead, that he didn't physically rise from the dead, that all those verses that say he did are wrong. It wasn't a physical resurrection. It a symbolic resurrection.

Your beliefs are different. They might be true, but that would make some of the other religions beliefs false. So why not make it clear from the start, and very obvious, that Baha'is believe every other religion has had things added into them that are not true and did not come from God. And, were not in the original message of the prophet of that religion. And then, make it clear, that Baha'u'llah tells us, in essence, what that "original" message was all about. Peace, love and unity and that one day the Glory of God, was going to come and fix everything. And today is that day, no, actually, 150 years ago was the day. Baha'u'llah has come and brought a message that will, if applied, lead to peace, love and unity.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm fine with Baha'is living up to their highest ideals and goals. Unfortunately, that includes "teaching" others about the new message from God. And, unfortunately, it contradicts what people in the other religions think is true.

Can a Baha'i honestly go to a church or temple of another religion and say that they believe the same as those people? No, Baha'is don't believe in many of the doctrines of the other religions. That is all a lot of us have been saying. Baha'is believe in a Baha'i interpretation of all those other religions. Which means, Baha'is don't agree with what those people think is true. And on and on it goes. Baha'is act as if they do. And we keep telling them, no you don't. And you don't.

Go to a Protestant Christian church and tell them that Jesus is physically dead, that he didn't physically rise from the dead, that all those verses that say he did are wrong. It wasn't a physical resurrection. It a symbolic resurrection.

Your beliefs are different. They might be true, but that would make some of the other religions beliefs false. So why not make it clear from the start, and very obvious, that Baha'is believe every other religion has had things added into them that are not true and did not come from God. And, were not in the original message of the prophet of that religion. And then, make it clear, that Baha'u'llah tells us, in essence, what that "original" message was all about. Peace, love and unity and that one day the Glory of God, was going to come and fix everything. And today is that day, no, actually, 150 years ago was the day. Baha'u'llah has come and brought a message that will, if applied, lead to peace, love and unity.

Yes we accept the Founders and Their Holy Books which all sects accept. The differences and division between the sects are their added man made laws and interpretations which are different from sect to sect and upon which there is no consensus. The only consensus for instance that exists between say Christian sects is they believe in Jesus and the Bible but that’s where consensus ends. The Baha’i Faith accepts the consensus that all of them agree upon.

So when I walk into a Christian Church I accept Jesus is from God and the Bible is the Word of God like all other Christian sects do. That is the point of unity.

None of the sects of any of the great religions accept each other’s version of the truth but they do accept the basic foundation which we accept also.

Your beliefs are different. They might be true, but that would make some of the other religions beliefs false. So why not make it clear from the start, and very obvious, that Baha'is believe every other religion has had things added into them that are not true and did not come from God. And, were not in the original message of the prophet of that religion. And then, make it clear, that Baha'u'llah tells us, in essence, what that "original" message was all about. Peace, love and unity and that one day the Glory of God, was going to come and fix everything. And today is that day, no, actually, 150 years ago was the day. Baha'u'llah has come and brought a message that will, if applied, lead to peace, love and unity.

This above statement by you is beautiful and i thought that we had made that clear but then we tend to get lost sometimes in all our quotes and perhaps haven’t put it as clearly as you have. Yes we accept the foundation of all religions but yes also there has been a lot added that was not in the original message. That’s why religions divided into sects long ago each differing about the added stuff such as interpretations and things like sacraments etc But the basic foundations most sects of any religion agree upon and that’s our point of unity with them.

 

[Vinayaka]

When I first learned about the Baha'i Faith in the 70's, I didn't know what people in other religions believed. I took what I was being told as the truth. Then, during the "Jesus Freak" movement, a friend of mine "found" Jesus. I went with him to Bible studies and found out that it was far different than what Baha'is told me about Christianity. After a few more years, I went into a Jewish bookstore and asked them... "If all these other religions say they came from you guys, why then, don't you guys believe them?" They told me and gave some books on how Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies about being the Messiah. And I completely agree with them. But then, I can see why Christians think he was the Messiah. It's all in how a person wants to see it.

Baha'is see it so clearly, Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ and Buddha, and Krishna, and everybody else. Why can't we see it? Maybe it ain't all that clear.

People are free to believe whatever they wish. It's still a psychological study to me, not a religious study at all.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes and thanks for your response.... The book is well documented and has a fine glossary. I think you'll find it worth your while to obtain a copy or check your library and review it!

Buddha Maitrya-Amitabha has appeared (Book, 1976) [WorldCat.org]

Fozdar also has a paper he submitted "The revivification of the Buddha's Dharma" that is online and can be downloaded:

The Revivification of the Buddha's Dharma


You can also read a brief essay at
Buddhism and the Bahá'í Faith

These are all from Baha'i authors and through that lens. Not at all from Buddhist folks.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You clearly do not know about your own religion.

Baha'i men may not grow their hair below the ear lobe.

Now, if you just confirm that you knew nothing about this then we'll educate you about this Baha'i rule.

Have you seen @shunyadragon 's avatar?

 

[Vinayaka]

An older thread ... Baha'i Haircut Law: Why Create a Law if your going to break it youself?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Said simply in modern English it means: "If you do not understand the way I want you to understand, then your are the perverter of God's word (i.e., my word) and you are one of the lost ones."
Thanks. No problem. I will understand it in my way.

Its not about interpretation at all. Its about deliberating altering the text.

 

[Dawnofhope]

An older thread ... Baha'i Haircut Law: Why Create a Law if your going to break it youself?

I know plenty of male Baha'is with long hair. No one ever makes an issue of it. To my knowledge there is no binding law that stipulates hair length. In all my years of serving on assemblies the issue of someone's hair cut has never arisen. So if its not an issue for Baha'is why is it an issue for non-Baha'is?

 

[Vinayaka]

I know plenty of male Baha'is with long hair. No one ever makes an issue of it. To my knowledge there is no binding law that stipulates hair length. In all my years of serving on assemblies the issue of someone's hair cut has never arisen. So if its not an issue for Baha'is why is it an issue for non-Baha'is?

Not an issue for me at all either. As I said on that thread ... meh. There are far bigger challenges.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thank you for the responses.
The fact that the christians were presecuted for their first three hundred years was not merely some fortuitous event that allowed them to be be free of political influence. They paid for this choice with their lives quite often.They were persecuted because they chose to be true to the message of peace that Jesus had proclaimed. They actually lived in a volatile corner of the Roman Imperium, in a time ripe for revolt, and many of the initial followers of the messiah were looking for a Warrior/King to do exactly what Isalm later did but the Christians rejected the course of organised violence until, as you point out, the political powers grabbed the faith.

I am reminded of Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

The decision not to take on the Roman Empire was a pragmatic one. The Jews were likely to be crushes as history demonstrated with the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple in 70 AD and defeat in subsequent Jewish uprisings. God clearly backed the Jewish people for war in the Hebrew Bible along with King David who was a warrior King. So is your argument Muhammad wasn't a Prophet because He enabled His followers to defend themselves whereas Jesus was the Son of God because He advised His followers to turn the other cheek? The argument doesn't work because if we apply the same standards to Muhammad as we do to other Prophets in the Hebrew Bible, then King David and Moses were not from God either.

I began this trying to work out what the Bahai's mean when referring to their message as a progression of the faiths that came before. This progression does not seem to be the case, except in the most ephemeral, non committing and cynical way possible. All the Bahai's that have communicated with me on these threads are very open about their lack of knowledge regarding the earlier messages and prophets that are supposedly part of a their own faith. The obvious contradictions between the message of Jesus and the one that Muhhammud delivered should be a clear indication that they do not flow from each other, how can one endorse both.

To be clear the comparison between the Baha'i Faith and both Islam and Christianity is astounding. The Baha'i Faith promotes the abolition of slavery, the equality of men and women and promotion of democracy. Christianity and Islam both endorsed slavery as the status quo, had nothing to say about democracy and promoted a standard of gender equality that belongs to a bygone era.

It seems the Bahai answer is that all the original followers of the great teachers, somehow missed the true message of their masters and recorded their messages in an imperfect way, either in the recording, as with the supposed corruption of the Bible or the conduct and interpretation of those inspired by the teaching.

That's not the message at all. The Gospels and the Quran provided a Message that was right for that time in history but clearly unsuited to our current age. So Baha'u'llah's message:

The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 213

The Bahai then get to cherry pick any concept they like by claiming progression of revelation, while at the same time rejecting the foundational understanding by the adherents of those faiths as error. It is a nice trick, but it does not seem work if confronted with anything other than the most basic understanding of those faiths. Anyway thank you for the time, effort and the information you supplied i do appreciate it, i think i will let this investigation of Bahai drop. It is an impossible task to discuss the Bahai view of the preceeding religions when their is no clear understanding of what they teach.The way is see it is ...... If Jesus spoke truth.... no need for the Bahai. If Jesus lied then the Bahai are wrong for claiming him to be a prophet.

Peace.

All the best. Thanks for dropping by.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I see the Manifestations are the source, ..

Anyone can claim to be a prophet/son/messenger/manifestation/mahdi and thousands have done it in history. These are false lights and mislead. That is why there is strife in the world. No evidence is needed to be offered. Bahaullah just picked up a new term and explanation (equally factitious) for himself.

"Throughout history, various individuals have claimed to be the Mahdi. These have included Muhammad Jaunpuri, founder of the Mahdavia sect; the Báb (Siyyid Ali Muhammad), founder of Bábism; Muhammad Ahmad, who established the Mahdist State in Sudan in the late 19th century; Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, founder of the Ahmadiyya movement; and Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi."
Mahdi - Wikipedia

In all my years of serving on assemblies the issue of someone's hair cut has never arisen.

It should have arisen. Such people are flouting the "Word of Allah". You surely do not want just to be pretenders (Munafiq).