• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why Bahai

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
"Gate Gate Paragate Parasumgate" - Heart Sutta
That is what Buddha said about himself after his death. "Gone, gone, totally gone, totally and truly gone". Buddha is not going to return. Nobody returns. The form has neither substance (Anatta) nor permanence (Anicca). Form is Pratityasamutpada (paṭiccasamuppāda) - a seeming depentent co-origination b ycoming together of aggregates (Skandhas). But that philosophy will be very difficult to understand for followers of Abrahamic religions. A God and his prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis is as far as they can generally go.

Yeah, we also term ourselves as Hindus for practical reasons so as not to fall prey to totally unsubstantiated Abrahamic assertions of one God and his prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis.

So, I'm not getting your comment on when I said "good point." There is no return. It defeats the purpose of enlightenment when the buddha who was supposed to be enlightened comes back to experience rebirth.

Him coming back to "carry a new message" is assuming he is a prophet. I never heard of such a thing in the suttas.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Can you list and show me what has happened?

That is a truckload of mines, so many different branches and views. I could go through and pick out what I see my have some foundation is what the Buddha did offer, but I see it will not help much.

Much like this, I see this prediction has strong foundation;

"..... At this time a notable teaching he will start giving is that of the ten non-virtuous deeds (killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, divisive speech, abusive speech, idle speech, covetousness, harmful intent and wrong views) and the ten virtuous deeds (the abandonment of: killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, divisive speech, abusive speech, idle speech, covetousness, harmful intent and wrong views).... "

Regards Tony
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
That is denial of the Light, part of the whole where I see all names merge into nothingness,
I do not deny the light, but we already have the beacon. Not part of the whole, but the whole itself.
A very famous invocatory verse:

"Purnamadah, purnamidam, purnāt purnam udachyate;
purnasya purnam ādāya, purnam eva vasisthyate."

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, Yajurveda.

(That is whole, this is whole, from that whole arises this whole'
to the whole, add the whole, what results is still the whole)

Hinduism is Quantum Mechanics.

"Aham Brahmasmi" (I am Brahman, Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, YajurVeda),
"Tat twam asi" (That is what you are, Chandogya Upanishad, SamaVeda).

15154068490BEACONIMAGE.jpg
See the light?
 
Last edited:

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
.. the Buddha who was supposed to be enlightened comes back to experience rebirth.
Buddha never said that he will return. "Gatey Gatey .." emphasizes that. Reincarnation in Buddhism is different from what we have in Hinduism. Only 'karmas' remain. The person does not come back, because the 'personhood' has no substance (Anatta).
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
These are the base meaning of the root words. Forget about who and what for now.

Nabi - Informer. Nabbai - Inform. As in Nabiuni - Inform me. Nabbaanaa - Informed us.
Rasool - The one who is sent or a messenger. Arsalna - We sent.

I never said that Muhammed is the final Rasool "&" Nabi. As the Quran says, he is the final "Nabi".

OK

1. Some Muslims argue that Nabi is the base. The foundation. To be a Rasool, you have to be a Nabi first. Like you have to do a degree before doing the Phd. So if Muhammed is the last degree holder, there won't be a Phd or a degree holder in the future. Do you understand that? So in this argument, Muhammed becomes the Seal or the final which means there will never be any more Rasools or Nabi's.

Sure

2. Some other Muslims, like the Ahmadhiya, Rashad kalifa adherents, and of course some Bahai's as well (though honestly you seem to be unaware of this argument. No offence) believe or argue that Rasool is the base or the degree holder. Nabi is the Phd. So the last Nabi means there won't be any more Phd's, but that doesn't mean we won't have degree holders. So there can be a rasool, even if there aren't anymore Nabi's. Do you understand this argument?

I am only answering your question brother. Nothing more nothing less.

Its never something I've thought about to be honest. The idea that God would sent His last Revelation to humankind through Muhammad I have never believed. I don't mean that in any negative or derogatory sense towards the Prophet Muhammad or the Holy Quran.

I have grown up in the West as a Christian and become a Baha'i in my early adult life. I explored Buddhism, Hinduism and atheism as I was searching for truth. Islam did not interest me even remotely until I became a Baha'i.

In this thread brother I do not intend at all to argue or debate the validity of your faith, I just think its stupid and very very childish to discuss and debate someones faith without having some good knowledge in the idea and depth of their faith. See, we grow up understanding and training in our respective theologies. And of course some of us are trained in another theology. I won't mince my words but in my case I was born in a traditional Sunni Muslim family and society and educated in it. In school we grew up deeply studying Buddhism as curricula. Later we end up studying Christianity and the Bible and have a deep relationship in higher studies. But never the Bahai faith. As a matter of fact, not even Hinduism or many other faiths to be frank. Thats the reason.

All my questions to you are with the intent of understanding the faith.

I understand that and agree entirely. In trying to understand the Baha'i Faith, it would be best for you to talk to a Baha'i who has grown up with Islam, preferably been a Muslim beforehand. I have grown up with Christianity and was Christian prior to becoming a Baha'i. @InvestigateTruth has a Muslim background I understand. I'm happy to talk with you regardless but I can see now that we will often misunderstand each other because of the very different cultures we have grown up in.

Anyway, what I have always seen and known is that Muslims, Christians, Buddhists are mostly mesmerised by the teaching of the institution (people get offended at this kind of small talk). I only intend to go to the roots and read the scripture and learn what it says and how that maps to the theology and frankly I have known them to be poles apart. Sometimes chalk and cheese. Thus, when you explain something from your understanding and learning I wish to know where that comes from. Whats the root? Does it actually teach this or is it an idea of people extra to the so called books we pay lip service to?

Anyway, that was a general comment.

I totally understand what you mean by going to the root and for Baha'is that is Baha'u'llah's Teachings. That is something I can help you with.

Now you said and linked to a Kithab I Akdhas that has 190 verses. (Actually 189) while the Arabic original (with a tinge of Persian as well, not Classical Arabic and certainly not the grass-root Arabic) has 238. The older manuscript has 472. You can never quote them as numbers of verses its not written that way. The English version has condensed it. Not removed anything, but condensed it. It ends with the phrase "Asthu mukaarin bisharri nawuu aklaani" which means "the time human's become rational (or lets say grow up/mature/become intellectual). So then you know it matches perfectly. I asked a few friends in academic circles brother and what I understood is that there has been many translations earlier as well but there were a lot of problems due to addition of statements, explanations etc so people were not clear what the scripture is. So this new translation is good and clear.

The full English translation of the Kitab-i-Aqdas made available in 1992 is very clear. Its great you can read the Arabic original.

But yet, it contains a 190th verse which speaks of "dont have opium" which is immediately after the commandment to have one universal language in governance throughout the world. As far as I can see, that Opium verse is added later. I dont know by who. Maybe by respectable Effendi. Im not clear on that. What can be said is that it doesn't suit the writing style, the poetic style of the earlier writings, and seems like a much later addition which is definitely not in the original arabic version, nor does it fit the topic nor the wisdom portrayed prior. Its like something that fell from somewhere and fell into that place just out of nowhere. Maybe you can shed some light on that.

So here's the two verses you refer:

O members of parliaments throughout the world! Select ye a single language for the use of all on earth, and adopt ye likewise a common script. God, verily, maketh plain for you that which shall profit you and enable you to be independent of others. He, of a truth, is the Most Bountiful, the All-Knowing, the All-Informed. This will be the cause of unity, could ye but comprehend it, and the greatest instrument for promoting harmony and civilization, would that ye might understand! We have appointed two signs for the coming of age of the human race: the first, which is the most firm foundation, We have set down in other of Our Tablets, while the second hath been revealed in this wondrous Book.

It hath been forbidden you to smoke opium. We, truly, have prohibited this practice through a most binding interdiction in the Book. Should anyone partake thereof, assuredly he is not of Me. Fear God, O ye endued with understanding!


Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 77-88

It surprises me to hear the original Arabic version does not contain the 190th verse. The English translation was not fully completed until over 30 years after Shoghi Effendi's passing. I think if Shoghi Effendi had inserted a verse as you propose, the team completing the translation would have twigged at some stage over 30 years, don't you think? Baha'u'llah's Writings can jump around from time to time. I've noticed similarities in the Quran (English translation of course).

Anyway as I told you earlier Kithab I Akdhas speaks "rasool". Many many times.

But when it mentions "Nabi" it speaks of older Nabi's. Verse 105 as an example speaks of "prophets who are of transcendent nature were humans and were ascetic" (meaning they were practicing abstinence from worldly pleasures like the Buddha). Well, thats a mention of the word Nabi.

Do you mean this verse?:

Whoso interpreteth what hath been sent down from the heaven of Revelation, and altereth its evident meaning, he, verily, is of them that have perverted the Sublime Word of God, and is of the lost ones in the Lucid Book.
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 49-63

It certainly would have been ironic if Shoghi Effendi had made the insertion of p190 immediately after translating verse 105.

But you claim Bahaullah was both Nabi and Rasool. Well. Thats not a direct statement in the Kithab I akdhas, the holy book.

Is it a teaching of the institution?

Anyway, this is already too long.

Cheers.

The Kitab-i-Aqdas is a book of laws for a future world civilisation. An example of Baha'u'llah proclaiming His Station can be found in the opening verse to Napoleon III

O KING of Paris! Tell the priest to ring the bells no longer. By God, the True One! The Most Mighty Bell hath appeared in the form of Him Who is the Most Great Name, and the fingers of the will of Thy Lord, the Most Exalted, the Most High, toll it out in the heaven of Immortality, in His name, the All-Glorious. Thus have the mighty verses of Thy Lord been again sent down unto thee, that thou mayest arise to remember God, the Creator of earth and heaven, in these days when all the tribes of the earth have mourned, and the foundations of the cities have trembled, and the dust of irreligion hath enwrapped all men, except such as God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise, was pleased to spare. Say: He Who is the Unconditioned is come, in the clouds of light, that He may quicken all created things with the breeze of His Name, the Most Merciful, and unify the world, and gather all men around this Table which hath been sent down from heaven. Beware that ye deny not the favour of God after it hath been sent down unto you. Better is this for you than that which ye possess; for that which is yours perisheth, whilst that which is with God endureth. He, in truth, ordaineth what He pleaseth. Verily, the breezes of forgiveness have been wafted from the direction of your Lord, the God of Mercy; whoso turneth thereunto, shall be cleansed of his sins, and of all pain and sickness. Happy the man that hath turned towards them, and woe betide him that hath turned aside.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 17-23


Of course the allusions appear more Christian than Islamic. What do you think?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Buddha never said that he will return. "Gatey Gatey .." emphasizes that. Reincarnation in Buddhism is different from what we have in Hinduism. Only 'karmas' remain. The person does not come back, because the 'personhood' has no substance (Anatta).
The person doesn't come back in Hinduism either. Just the jiva.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Bahai education segregates men from women quite a bit. They are routed to differing lifes, such is the gender imbalance.

The vindictive rubbish continues. False

They are ordered to have different hair-styles, even.

Needs clarification and citation.


That's you..... the way you talk to folks who have 'clocked' Bahai for what it is.

In a Bahai World we couldn't even have our hair to our own individual tastes!

That's not an acrid sentence..... just the Truth.

Picking frog hairs to justify an acrid agenda.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
It surprises me to hear the original Arabic version does not contain the 190th verse. The English translation was not fully completed until over 30 years after Shoghi Effendi's passing. I think if Shoghi Effendi had inserted a verse as you propose, the team completing the translation would have twigged at some stage over 30 years, don't you think? Baha'u'llah's Writings can jump around from time to time. I've noticed similarities in the Quran (English translation of course).

What Quran verse are you speaking of?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Whoso interpreteth what hath been sent down from the heaven of Revelation, and altereth its evident meaning, he, verily, is of them that have perverted the Sublime Word of God, and is of the lost ones in the Lucid Book.
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 49-63

It certainly would have been ironic if Shoghi Effendi had made the insertion of p190 immediately after translating verse 105.

Thats not the verse I was speaking of. But lets just drop that in this thread brother. I see no point. Thank you very much for responding. Hope you have a great day. Cheers.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
That is a truckload of mines, so many different branches and views. I could go through and pick out what I see my have some foundation is what the Buddha did offer, but I see it will not help much.

Much like this, I see this prediction has strong foundation;

"..... At this time a notable teaching he will start giving is that of the ten non-virtuous deeds (killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, divisive speech, abusive speech, idle speech, covetousness, harmful intent and wrong views) and the ten virtuous deeds (the abandonment of: killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, divisive speech, abusive speech, idle speech, covetousness, harmful intent and wrong views).... "

Regards Tony

With all honesty, your comments are way too vague. I prefer direct references to the direct sources and analytic discussions.

You have been very courteous and decent and I respect that.

I shall leave it at that.

Peace.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The person doesn't come back in Hinduism either. Just the jiva.
And the Jiva is none other than Brahman, so said Sankara:
"Brahma satyam, jagan-mithya, jivo Brahmaiva na parah .."
(Brahman is the truth, the observed (world) is untruth, Jiva is not different from Brahman ..) :D
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Buddha never said that he will return. "Gatey Gatey .." emphasizes that. Reincarnation in Buddhism is different from what we have in Hinduism. Only 'karmas' remain. The person does not come back, because the 'personhood' has no substance (Anatta).

Yeah. That's another way to explain it.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Some one explained it to be in this way: Karmas are like billiard balls, once put in motion, they affect many balls. The first ball is irrelevant after it has collided with others and if it does not fall into the pocket.
 
Last edited:

firedragon

Veteran Member
Can someone give me a direct reference to a scripture attributed to the Buddha which explains reincarnation as you have explained?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"Whoso interpreteth what hath been sent down from the heaven of Revelation, and altereth its evident meaning, he, verily, is of them that have perverted the Sublime Word of God, and is of the lost ones in the Lucid Book."
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 49-63
Said simply in modern English it means: "If you do not understand the way I want you to understand, then your are the perverter of God's word (i.e., my word) and you are one of the lost ones."
Thanks. No problem. I will understand it in my way.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I do not deny the light, but we already have the beacon. Not part of the whole, but the whole itself.
A very famous invocatory verse:

"Purnamadah, purnamidam, purnāt purnam udachyate;
purnasya purnam ādāya, purnam eva vasisthyate."

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, Yajurveda.

(That is whole, this is whole, from that whole arises this whole'
to the whole, add the whole, what results is still the whole)

Hinduism is Quantum Mechanics.

"Aham Brahmasmi" (I am Brahman, Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, YajurVeda),
"Tat twam asi" (That is what you are, Chandogya Upanishad, SamaVeda).

15154068490BEACONIMAGE.jpg
See the light?

This is good. I see a beacon is made to shine and give a safe path to others in the dark of night. It is part of the whole as darkness is also required for it to shine.

I see when the source of light, the Sun rises, the beacon is dimmed by the intensity of that light.

I see we can all become a beacon which in turn can shine a path to others in darkness, but a beacon requires to be lit by a power that is not its own.

I see this concept would be difficult when one takes the source out of the picture.

I see the Manifestations are the source, we shine when we turn to the power source. I also see that all good is the source of power. Thus I see we are all beacons of varied brightness.

Thanks for those passages, even if we do see them in different light. Regards Tony
 
Top