A Baha'i Conundrum (by invitation only)

[Terry Sampson]

By invitation: @adrian009 , @Trailblazer

I. Self-introduction.

• I currently identify myself as a "creedalist Christian": specifically, I subscribe to the Apostle's Creed.
• Irreconcilable differences exist between what the Qur'an says and what I believe and am willing to believe.

II. Introduction to a perceived Baha'i conundrum.

• I post this thread here in order to minimize the distracting noises of an RF free-for-all.
• Previously, in another thread, I asked the following questions and Adrian answered:
  • Question #1: Does orthodox Baha'i doctrine teach that the Qur'an "is the inerrant Word of God"?
    • Adrian's response: The most relevant reference to support this statement is a statement from Shoghi Effendi, authorized interpreter of the Baha’i writings. He describes the Quran as the authenticated repository of the word of God.
  • Question #2: What do those who believe that the Qur'an is the inerrant Word of God say about the standard canon of Jewish Scriptures? and about the standard canon of Christian Scriptures?
    • Adrian's response: Baha’is believe the Gospels and Torah have been under God’s protection and so contain everything God wished to convey of the Teachings of Jesus and Moses. We don’t view the sacred writings as corrupted as many Muslims do. However we don’t interpret them literally as some Christians do.
• Recently, in yet another thread, Trailblazer posted the following:
  • The evidence that *indicates* that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is as follows:
    • What He was like as a person (His character);
    • What He did during His 40 year mission on earth;
    • The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
    • The scriptures that He wrote;
    • The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,
    • The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
    • The predictions He made that have come to pass;
    • The religion that His followers established, what they have done and are doing now.
• Focusing on the 5th item, I posted this to Trailblazer:
  • I only know of one Bible: the book which contains the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Scriptures. What book are you referring to? If, by some chance, you are referring to the same book that I know of as the Bible, where can I find a list of the Bible prophecies that you say the Baha'u'llah fulfilled?
    • To which Trailblazer replied: Yes, I am referring to the Holy Bible that contains the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Scriptures. The prophecies and how they were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah are delineated in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears.

III. The Baha'i Conundrum from my perspective.

• If the Qur'an is, according to Shogi Effendi, "the authenticated repository of the word of God" and if the Qur'an denies the physical execution and entombment of Jesus of Nazareth, when do Muslims and Baha's think Jesus died, or do Muslims and/or Baha'is propose that Allah "terminated Jesus' life and raised Jesus to Himself" (Surah 3:55) without Jesus ever actually undergoing actual death???
• Although I reject any notion, regardless who makes it, that Jesus of Nazareth was not crucified, entombed, raised from the dead, and ascended to the Father,
  • I am fascinated by a Baha'i claim that the Baha'u'llah fulfilled Biblical prophecies in a book that the Qur'an says is corrupted but that, according to Baha'i, is not corrupted but merely "not interpreted literally as some Christians do",
  • when the three Biblical prophecies discussed by William Sears are interpreted as literally as the most fundamentalist Christians I've ever met interpret them.

 

[Trailblazer]

III. The Baha'i Conundrum from my perspective.

If the Qur'an is, according to Shogi Effendi, "the authenticated repository of the word of God" and if the Qur'an denies the physical execution and entombment of Jesus of Nazareth,

Unfortunately, I do not know the Qur’an very well. Can you quote the verses that deny the physical execution and entombment of Jesus of Nazareth?

when do Muslims and Baha's think Jesus died, or do Muslims and/or Baha'is propose that Allah "terminated Jesus' life and raised Jesus to Himself" (Surah 3:55) without Jesus ever actually undergoing actual death???

I am not sure what Muslims believe but please bear in mind that it does not MATTER what they believe; it only matters what is written in the Qur’an. I say this because people can and do misinterpret scriptures, and I think that the Muslims might have done so.

Sahih International
[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

I do not think that means that God "terminated Jesus' life and raised Jesus to Himself" without Jesus ever actually undergoing actual death, but maybe that is what Muslims believe. There are probably other verses in the Qur’an they use to support their belief, but I would have to see them in order to comment upon them. It is hard to believe that Muhammad would say that Jesus was not crucified, because that would be in direct contradiction to what Baha’u’llah wrote about Jesus sacrificing Himself.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

In that same passage, Baha’u’llah also wrote that the sacrifice was for removal of sins. Baha’is do not believe in original sin the same way Christians do, but we do believe that humans have a sinful nature as well as a divine nature, and that Jesus sanctified us from our sinful nature by his teachings and the cross sacrifice. Referring to Jesus as the Son of man, Baha’u’llah wrote:

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

Although I reject any notion, regardless who makes it, that Jesus of Nazareth was not crucified, entombed, raised from the dead, and ascended to the Father,

It is a Baha’i belief that when the body dies, the soul leaves the body and wings its flight to the spiritual world, so that is what we believe happened to Jesus. He ascended to the fourth heaven; as the passage below says “They at last heaped on His blessed Person such woes that He took His flight unto the fourth Heaven.” I believe that Jesus is now sitting on the right hand of God in heaven (the spiritual world) which symbolically means Jesus is as close to God as one can be. However, the passage below says, “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and might?” and I think that means that Jesus was sitting on the right hand of power and might (on the right hand of God) even while walking upon this earth.

“Similarly, call thou to mind the day when the Jews, who had surrounded Jesus, Son of Mary, were pressing Him to confess His claim of being the Messiah and Prophet of God, so that they might declare Him an infidel and sentence Him to death. Then, they led Him away, He Who was the Day-star of the heaven of divine Revelation, unto Pilate and Caiaphas, who was the leading divine of that age. The chief priests were all assembled in the palace, also a multitude of people who had gathered to witness His sufferings, to deride and injure Him. Though they repeatedly questioned Him, hoping that He would confess His claim, yet Jesus held His peace and spake not. Finally, an accursed of God arose and, approaching Jesus, adjured Him saying: “Didst thou not claim to be the Divine Messiah? Didst thou not say, ‘I am the King of Kings, My word is the Word of God, and I am the breaker of the Sabbath day?’” Thereupon Jesus lifted up His head and said: “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and might?” These were His words, and yet consider how to outward seeming He was devoid of all power except that inner power which was of God and which had encompassed all that is in heaven and on earth. How can I relate all that befell Him after He spoke these words? How shall I describe their heinous behaviour towards Him? They at last heaped on His blessed Person such woes that He took His flight unto the fourth Heaven.” Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 132-133

It is not a Baha’i belief that the physical body was raised from the dead after three days, so that leaves us trying to explain the resurrection stories in the NT. Personally, I think it is possible that the spiritual body of Jesus appeared to the disciples, and given Jesus was perfectly capable of performing miracles, He made it appear real. Another explanation is that these were just stories men told and they never happened. Since I was never a Christian I am unfamiliar with much of the Bible so I feel unqualified to say what actually happened. I will just say that I know Baha’is who were formerly Christians who believe it is possible that Jesus actually rose from the dead, but they do not attach the significance that Christians do to that event. Moreover, regardless of what happened to the body of Jesus, it is not the body that is important because the body is not our true identity; the soul is our true identity. My interpretation of Acts 1:10-11 is that the soul of Jesus ascended to the spiritual world (heaven), not the physical body of Jesus. Baha’is do not believe heaven is a physical place, so a physical body cannot live in heaven. Rather, in heaven the soul takes on a spiritual body, a new form. We cannot possibly understand what that form will be like since the spiritual world is very different from this world.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

 

[Terry Sampson]

Can you quote the verses that deny the physical execution and entombment of Jesus of Nazareth?

• Sura 3:153. The People of the Scripture [T.S. note: the Jews] ...
• 156. And for their faithlessness, and their saying against Mary a monstrous slander.
• 157. And for their saying, “We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.” In fact, they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they did. Indeed, those who differ about him are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it, except the following of assumptions. Certainly, they did not kill him.
• 158. Rather, Allah raised him up to Himself. Allah is Mighty and Wise.

If you ever meet a Muslim who affirms that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified by the Romans, entombed, and resurrected, I'd sure like to meet him/her. One of a kind, to say the least.

 

[Terry Sampson]

people can and do misinterpret scriptures, and I think that the Muslims might have done so.

You said that, not me.

It is hard to believe that Muhammad would say that Jesus was not crucified, because that would be in direct contradiction to what Baha’u’llah wrote about Jesus sacrificing Himself.

Something tells me that you're in for a big surprise.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If the Qur'an is, according to Shogi Effendi, "the authenticated repository of the word of God" and if the Qur'an denies the physical execution and entombment of Jesus of Nazareth, when do Muslims and Baha's think Jesus died, or do Muslims and/or Baha'is propose that Allah "terminated Jesus' life and raised Jesus to Himself" (Surah 3:55) without Jesus ever actually undergoing actual death???

Hi Terry,

I see @Trailblazer has already responded.

Thank you for the questions. I think it is wise of you to have an invitation only thread, especially after what happened with another thread asking Baha'is questions in the general religious debates section.

In brief, Baha'is accept the account of Christ's crucifixion in the New Testament being correct. The meaning of the Quranic verses is that Christ's Spirit was not crucified.

The relevant verses from the Quran:

Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
Quran 3:55 (Yusaf Ali translation)
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
Quran 4:157-158
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

"So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
Quran 19:33
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Though we cannot imagine exactly what the Manifestations of the remote past were like, we can be sure of two things: They must have been able to reach their fellow-men in a normal manner—as Bahá’u’lláh reached His generation, and They were sent from God and thus Divine Beings. The crucifixion as recounted in the New Testament is correct. The meaning of the Quranic version is that the spirit of Christ was not crucified. There is no conflict between the two."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 14, 1943)


Most Muslims believe Jesus was not literally crucified.

I hope to respond further soon.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Although I reject any notion, regardless who makes it, that Jesus of Nazareth was not crucified, entombed, raised from the dead, and ascended to the Father,

• I am fascinated by a Baha'i claim that the Baha'u'llah fulfilled Biblical prophecies in a book that the Qur'an says is corrupted but that, according to Baha'i, is not corrupted but merely "not interpreted literally as some Christians do",
• when the three Biblical prophecies discussed by William Sears are interpreted as literally as the most fundamentalist Christians I've ever met interpret them.

As noted by TB, Baha'is view the resurrection and ascension of Christ as being allegorical rather than literal. The major problem is with a literal interpretation of the verses from Acts of the Apostle 1:9-11.

Baha'is do not believe the physical body of Jesus literally ascended through the stratosphere into outer space (the physical location of heaven).

As far as I can see, the main theological differences between the Quran as it is understood by most Muslims and the New Testament as its understood by most Christians are:

1/ The Divinity of Christ
2/ The Trinity
3/ The Sonship of Christ
4/ The crucifion
5/ The resurrection
6/ The nature of salvation

There may be others you wish to add to the list.

The crucifixion is perhaps the easiest difference to resolve from a Christian perspective as the NT narratives are so clear and there is no reason to doubt the historicity of Christ's crucifixion. In fact many atheist historians would support evidence for the crucifixion of Christ. The greatest difficulty Christians have with the Baha'i perspective is our view that the resurrection and ascension of Christ were not literal events.

In regards the Divinity and Sonship of Christ, Shoghi Effendi has said:

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the 'Spirit of God,' is proclaimed as the One Who 'appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,' and is even extolled as the 'Essence of the Spirit'. His mother is described as 'that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous countenance,' and the station of her Son eulogized as a 'station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth', whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused 'the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth'.…"
(Shoghi Effendi: The Promised Day is Come, pp. 109-110)

Lights of Guidance/Christ - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

The Trinity is seen as useful in regards understanding the relationship between the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 113-115

 

[Dawnofhope]

Although I reject any notion, regardless who makes it, that Jesus of Nazareth was not crucified, entombed, raised from the dead, and ascended to the Father,

• I am fascinated by a Baha'i claim that the Baha'u'llah fulfilled Biblical prophecies in a book that the Qur'an says is corrupted but that, according to Baha'i, is not corrupted but merely "not interpreted literally as some Christians do",
• when the three Biblical prophecies discussed by William Sears are interpreted as literally as the most fundamentalist Christians I've ever met interpret them.

The whole issue of prophecy and Christian/Islamic eschatology is a huge area.

Some general comments that may or may not be helpful. I often ask Christians what was the last name or surname of Paul the apostle. The correct answer of course is that he didn't have one as with most people in that locality in that time. Paul was often referred to as Paul of Taurus to distinguish him from others Pauls (or Sauls). Same deal with Jesus. His name wasn't Jesus Christ but Jesus the Christ (or Messiah) to distinguish Him from others with the same name (Yeshua). So when Baha'is talk about the return of Christ we mean the coming of another Christ or Messiah and not the same physical body as Jesus. The best and only example of the return of a Hebrew Prophet in the NT is Elijiah as John the Baptist.

Was John the Baptist literally Elijiah as in the same physical body? No. Did he return in the spirit of Elijiah? Yes.

Who was Elijah in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

A good starting point for considering prophecies is perhaps the Olivet disocurse or the final sermon Jesus delivered as recorded in the synoptic gospels prior to His crucifixion. For example in Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

These verses are discussed by Baha'u'llah in one of His most important works called the Kitab-i-Iqan. They could refer to the ministry of either Muhammad or Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah in this book criticises the Muslim clergy for rejecting the Christian Gospels as corrupt and explains it would have been much better to have studies the Gospels and explained to Christians how Muhammad fulfilled such prophecies.

Baha'is believe other verses in the Christian Bible refer specifically to Baha'u'llah (the Glory of God) as certain verses in the Hebrew Bible made reference to Jesus.

 

[Terry Sampson]

The whole issue of prophecy and Christian/Islamic eschatology is a huge area.

I'm sure that those matters can be allowed to be a huge area. However, I had in mind a fairly specific focus inspired/evoked by Trailblazer's claim: that there are prophecies in the Bible which Baha'u'llah fulfilled, the fulfillment of which--according to Trailblazer--was/is evidence that *indicates* that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God. Trailblazer confirmed for me that the Bible containing the prophecies fulfilled by Baha'u'llah is the same book that I have in mind when I use that word (i.e. Bible).

When I asked where I could find a list of the prophecies that Trailblazer was referring to, I was given a link to a copy of William Sears' book: Thief in the Night (1961), where I found the following three prophecies (Page 8):

• The millennial zeal (T.S. note: in the U.S.) reached its climax in the year 1844. I [i.e. Sears] wanted to know exactly why. What had led all these people to the same year? I found the answer. This date in history had been chosen primarily because of three specific promises made by Christ Himself to His disciples. He gave three promises, saying that when these three things came to pass, He (Christ) would return to earth. The promises are as follows:
  • 1. His Gospel would be preached everywhere on earth.
  • 2. The ‘times of the Gentiles’ would be fulfilled, and the Jews would return to Israel (Palestine)
  • 3. All mankind would see the ‘abomination of desolation’ foretold by Daniel the Prophet.

The relevance of Jesus' crucifixion lies in the year he was purportedly crucified: 33 CE. If, as I thought, Baha'is ascribed inerrancy to the Qur'an, and, as I believe, the Qur'an denies the crucifixion, I had difficulty understanding how any Baha'i could have confidence in a calculation of years from a specific event prior to the crucifixion to the crucifixion itself and from the crucifixion to the year 1844. But, as you've pointed out, Baha'is don't have a problem with Jesus' crucifixion, it's his resurrection and ascension in a physical body that Baha'is question.

Bottom line: My difficulty with Trailblazer's claim is resolved, ... not because I accept the claim that Baha'u'llah fulfilled any Biblical prophecies (I don't), but because Baha'is do not doubt Jesus' crucifixion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bottom line: My difficulty with Trailblazer's claim is resolved, ... not because I accept the claim that Baha'u'llah fulfilled any Biblical prophecies (I don't), but because Baha'is do not doubt Jesus' crucifixion.

How can you know that Baha'u'llah did not fulfill any Biblical prophecies if you do not know how those prophecies align with when and where Baha'u'llah appeared and what happened after that? No, you should not just accept such a claim without doing the necessary investigation.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm sure that those matters can be allowed to be a huge area. However, I had in mind a fairly specific focus inspired/evoked by Trailblazer's claim: that there are prophecies in the Bible which Baha'u'llah fulfilled, the fulfillment of which--according to Trailblazer--was/is evidence that *indicates* that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God. Trailblazer confirmed for me that the Bible containing the prophecies fulfilled by Baha'u'llah is the same book that I have in mind when I use that word (i.e. Bible).

When I asked where I could find a list of the prophecies that Trailblazer was referring to, I was given a link to a copy of William Sears' book: Thief in the Night (1961), where I found the following three prophecies (Page 8):

• The millennial zeal (T.S. note: in the U.S.) reached its climax in the year 1844. I [i.e. Sears] wanted to know exactly why. What had led all these people to the same year? I found the answer. This date in history had been chosen primarily because of three specific promises made by Christ Himself to His disciples. He gave three promises, saying that when these three things came to pass, He (Christ) would return to earth. The promises are as follows:
  • 1. His Gospel would be preached everywhere on earth.
  • 2. The ‘times of the Gentiles’ would be fulfilled, and the Jews would return to Israel (Palestine)
  • 3. All mankind would see the ‘abomination of desolation’ foretold by Daniel the Prophet.

The relevance of Jesus' crucifixion lies in the year he was purportedly crucified: 33 CE. If, as I thought, Baha'is ascribed inerrancy to the Qur'an, and, as I believe, the Qur'an denies the crucifixion, I had difficulty understanding how any Baha'i could have confidence in a calculation of years from a specific event prior to the crucifixion to the crucifixion itself and from the crucifixion to the year 1844. But, as you've pointed out, Baha'is don't have a problem with Jesus' crucifixion, it's his resurrection and ascension in a physical body that Baha'is question.

Bottom line: My difficulty with Trailblazer's claim is resolved, ... not because I accept the claim that Baha'u'llah fulfilled any Biblical prophecies (I don't), but because Baha'is do not doubt Jesus' crucifixion.

I'm pleased you have resolved your conundrum.

In regards the age of Jesus at crucifixion (33 years old) I thought you may be interested in one of my earlier threads that explores the prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27, the Olivet discourse in Matthew 24:15 and Matthew 18:21-22.

Seventy weeks (490) in Daniel 9:24-27

Seventy weeks (490) in Daniel 9:24-27

Seventy weeks (490) in Daniel 9:24-27

 

[Terry Sampson]

How can you know that Baha'u'llah did not fulfill any Biblical prophecies if you do not know how those prophecies align with when and where Baha'u'llah appeared and what happened after that? No, you should not just accept such a claim without doing the necessary investigation.

How can I know?

• John 16:7.But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. 12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
• Acts of the Apostles 4:9 Rulers and elders of the people, 9 if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, ]as to how this man has been made well, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11 He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
• I Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

 

[firedragon]

Unfortunately, I do not know the Qur’an very well. Can you quote the verses that deny the physical execution and entombment of Jesus of Nazareth?

I am not sure what Muslims believe but please bear in mind that it does not MATTER what they believe; it only matters what is written in the Qur’an. I say this because people can and do misinterpret scriptures, and I think that the Muslims might have done so.

Sahih International
[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

I do not think that means that God "terminated Jesus' life and raised Jesus to Himself" without Jesus ever actually undergoing actual death, but maybe that is what Muslims believe. There are probably other verses in the Qur’an they use to support their belief, but I would have to see them in order to comment upon them. It is hard to believe that Muhammad would say that Jesus was not crucified, because that would be in direct contradiction to what Baha’u’llah wrote about Jesus sacrificing Himself.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

In that same passage, Baha’u’llah also wrote that the sacrifice was for removal of sins. Baha’is do not believe in original sin the same way Christians do, but we do believe that humans have a sinful nature as well as a divine nature, and that Jesus sanctified us from our sinful nature by his teachings and the cross sacrifice. Referring to Jesus as the Son of man, Baha’u’llah wrote:

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

It is a Baha’i belief that when the body dies, the soul leaves the body and wings its flight to the spiritual world, so that is what we believe happened to Jesus. He ascended to the fourth heaven; as the passage below says “They at last heaped on His blessed Person such woes that He took His flight unto the fourth Heaven.” I believe that Jesus is now sitting on the right hand of God in heaven (the spiritual world) which symbolically means Jesus is as close to God as one can be. However, the passage below says, “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and might?” and I think that means that Jesus was sitting on the right hand of power and might (on the right hand of God) even while walking upon this earth.

“Similarly, call thou to mind the day when the Jews, who had surrounded Jesus, Son of Mary, were pressing Him to confess His claim of being the Messiah and Prophet of God, so that they might declare Him an infidel and sentence Him to death. Then, they led Him away, He Who was the Day-star of the heaven of divine Revelation, unto Pilate and Caiaphas, who was the leading divine of that age. The chief priests were all assembled in the palace, also a multitude of people who had gathered to witness His sufferings, to deride and injure Him. Though they repeatedly questioned Him, hoping that He would confess His claim, yet Jesus held His peace and spake not. Finally, an accursed of God arose and, approaching Jesus, adjured Him saying: “Didst thou not claim to be the Divine Messiah? Didst thou not say, ‘I am the King of Kings, My word is the Word of God, and I am the breaker of the Sabbath day?’” Thereupon Jesus lifted up His head and said: “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and might?” These were His words, and yet consider how to outward seeming He was devoid of all power except that inner power which was of God and which had encompassed all that is in heaven and on earth. How can I relate all that befell Him after He spoke these words? How shall I describe their heinous behaviour towards Him? They at last heaped on His blessed Person such woes that He took His flight unto the fourth Heaven.” Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 132-133

It is not a Baha’i belief that the physical body was raised from the dead after three days, so that leaves us trying to explain the resurrection stories in the NT. Personally, I think it is possible that the spiritual body of Jesus appeared to the disciples, and given Jesus was perfectly capable of performing miracles, He made it appear real. Another explanation is that these were just stories men told and they never happened. Since I was never a Christian I am unfamiliar with much of the Bible so I feel unqualified to say what actually happened. I will just say that I know Baha’is who were formerly Christians who believe it is possible that Jesus actually rose from the dead, but they do not attach the significance that Christians do to that event. Moreover, regardless of what happened to the body of Jesus, it is not the body that is important because the body is not our true identity; the soul is our true identity. My interpretation of Acts 1:10-11 is that the soul of Jesus ascended to the spiritual world (heaven), not the physical body of Jesus. Baha’is do not believe heaven is a physical place, so a physical body cannot live in heaven. Rather, in heaven the soul takes on a spiritual body, a new form. We cannot possibly understand what that form will be like since the spiritual world is very different from this world.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

Brother. May I ask you a bit of a different question?

Have you ever read any of the final references and quotations you are directly or indirectly quoting? I hope you understand my question.

 

[firedragon]

In brief, Baha'is accept the account of Christ's crucifixion in the New Testament being correct. The meaning of the Quranic verses is that Christ's Spirit was not crucified.

The relevant verses from the Quran:

Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
Quran 3:55 (Yusaf Ali translation)

Brother may I ask which gospels (I mean out of the four canonical gospels) crucifixion narration do you believe in? Or do you just believe he was crucified, killed, and not believe the rest of the narrations?

Some general comments that may or may not be helpful. I often ask Christians what was the last name or surname of Paul the apostle. The correct answer of course is that he didn't have one as with most people in that locality in that time. Paul was often referred to as Paul of Taurus to distinguish him from others Pauls (or Sauls). Same deal with Jesus. His name wasn't Jesus Christ but Jesus the Christ (or Messiah) to distinguish Him from others with the same name (Yeshua). So when Baha'is talk about the return of Christ we mean the coming of another Christ or Messiah and not the same physical body as Jesus. The best and only example of the return of a Hebrew Prophet in the NT is Elijiah as John the Baptist.

Ah I see. I understand your point.

Just one question on that. Is it scriptural? I mean what you said, is it scriptural or an institutional theology? Can you give direct quotes from scripture?

These verses are discussed by Baha'u'llah in one of His most important works called the Kitab-i-Iqan. They could refer to the ministry of either Muhammad or Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah in this book criticises the Muslim clergy for rejecting the Christian Gospels as corrupt and explains it would have been much better to have studies the Gospels and explained to Christians how Muhammad fulfilled such prophecies.

Can you give a reference in the Kithab I Íqán please for this?

Also, I should tell you that he was absolutely wrong if he said what you said above.

Because there were many muslims who studied the canonical gospels. And it is not a scholarly view that Muhammed was predicted in the Bible that you have today, it is an evangelical approach. You must separate them. Scholars always had arguments about the problems with this theory of "fulfilment of prophecies". It was dropped as a useless subject to delve in.

Also if you think that all muslims, all scholars and the scripture are unanimously saying that "Christian Gospels as corrupt". The only unanimous thing is that "people wrote books and attributed it to God".

 

[Trailblazer]

Brother. May I ask you a bit of a different question?

Have you ever read any of the final references and quotations you are directly or indirectly quoting? I hope you understand my question.

No, I do not understand exactly what you are asking me.

 

[firedragon]

No, I do not understand exactly what you are asking me.

Example.

You give links to explanations. Have you gone to the scripture? Have you studied if that explanation you give links to is correct according to your scripture?

 

[Trailblazer]

Example.

You give links to explanations. Have you gone to the scripture? Have you studied if that explanation you give links to is correct according to your scripture?

I have studied the Baha'i scriptures so I know what is correct according to Baha'i scriptures.

I have not studied the Qur'an and as I said I do not know it very well at all, so I am just trying to understand it. I do not have time to read the Qur'an and try to understand it right now.

 

[firedragon]

I have studied the Baha'i scriptures so I know what is correct according to Baha'i scriptures.

I have not studied the Qur'an and as I said I do not know it very well at all, so I am just trying to understand it. I do not have time to read the Qur'an and try to understand it right now.

OK brother

 

[Trailblazer]

OK brother

That's sister.

 

[firedragon]

That's sister.

****. Is that the second time? My foot is in my mouth now.

 

[Trailblazer]

****. Is that the second time? My foot is in my mouth now.

Naw.... that's okay.