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How to experience Bliss

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Then, even some masters like Ramana would describe that state as beyond bliss. So perhaps true bliss is nonexistent.

Yes me too. Not this lifetime, but the Atman 'I'. The intellectual take on it appears rather dull compared to a Master like Ramana.

I stick to Sai Baba, Ramana Maharshi and Yoga Vasistha when it comes to description of words like Bliss, Consciousness etc. I have found these to be consistent with each other. In the West people use different definitions, which to me make no sense when talking about Spirituality. Here is "cinmaya" translated as "pure Consciousness".

Below Ramana explains in short the "relation" between Body, Mind and Consciousness (From Yoga Vasistha)

AKASA *—Space or Dimension.
Three important words occur in the text, which are: cidakasa*, cittakasa* and bhutakasa*. Literally akasa* means space and hence cidakasa* means
consciousnessspace, cittakasa* means mindspace and bhutakasa* means the element space. These three concepts are thus beautifully explained by Bhagavan* Ramana* Maharsi:*.

"It is said that cidakasa* itself is atma* svarupa* (image of atma*) and that we can view it only with the help of the mind. How can we see it, if the mind has subsided?" someone asked. Bhagavan* said: "If the sky is taken as an illustration it must be stated to be of three varieties, cidakasa*, cittakasa* and bhutakasa* The natural state is called cidakasa* the I feeling that is born from cidakasa* is cittakasa*. As that cittakasa* expands and takes the shape of all the bhutas* (elements) this is all bhutakasa*

When the cittakasa* which is consciousness of the self (''I'') does not see the cidakasa* but sees the bhutakasa* it is said to be mano akasa* and when when it leaves mano akasa* and sees cidakasa* it is said to be cinmaya (pure consciousness). The subsiding of the mind means, the idea of multiplicity of objects vanishes and the idea of oneness of objects appears. When that is achieved everything appears natural."

Perhaps, a better translation for the word akasa* is "dimension". The same infinite consciousness is known as cidakasa*, cittakasa* and bhutakasa* viewed from the spiritual, mental (conceptual) and physical dimension respectively
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I stick to Sai Baba, Ramana Maharshi and Yoga Vasistha when it comes to description of words like Bliss, Consciousness
Below Ramana Maharshi explains the "Who Am I" practice.
http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/downloads/who_am_I_english.zip

Ramana on Happiness (above .pdf):
The mind experiences happiness when the world disappears (when there are no thoughts); and when the world appears, it goes through misery


That sums it up pretty much I think. How to get there: practice "Who Am I"
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I stick to Sai Baba, Ramana Maharshi and Yoga Vasistha when it comes to description of words like Bliss, Consciousness etc. I have found these to be consistent with each other. In the West people use different definitions, which to me make no sense when talking about Spirituality. Here is "cinmaya" translated as "pure Consciousness".

Below Ramana explains in short the "relation" between Body, Mind and Consciousness (From Yoga Vasistha)

In my path, and my sampradaya's teachings, it's far more about how to get there than a description of what it's like when you do get there. So it's emphasis is practical. That's why we encourage temple worship, good works, service, inner striving, and values. We don't believe in any shortcuts to the mountaintop.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
In my path, and my sampradaya's teachings, it's far more about how to get there
I get the feeling that you think that my path is "less practical", and not about "how to get there". Maybe I feel wrong.
I like Ramana Maharshi because He is very practical "how to get there". 1 Booklet, just 28 verses. Very concise, hence my favorite.

a description of what it's like when you do get there
I know it's beyond words, so to me those descriptions are not even interesting, let alone true. I go for personal experience alone.
Sai Baba stresses not to exaggerate. I think I never even thought once about how it's like when you do get there.

So it's emphasis is practical.
Again I get the feeling you think I am not practical. I like Sai Baba especially because He is so practical, and even better He made it "simple" for me

That's why we encourage temple worship, good works, service, inner striving, and values.
That is exactly what my impression always has been of Hinduism. Very practical and useful, that's what I like so much about Hinduism.

We don't believe in any shortcuts to the mountaintop.
Are there Hindus that believe in shortcuts to the mountaintop? Some Christians do "Surrender to Jesus and you are saved". Hinduism I don't know.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I get the feeling that you think that my path is "less practical", and not about "how to get there". Maybe I feel wrong.
I like Ramana Maharshi because He is very practical "how to get there". 1 Booklet, just 28 verses. Very concise, hence my favorite.


I know it's beyond words, so to me those descriptions are not even interesting, let alone true. I go for personal experience alone.


Again I get the feeling you think I am not practical. I like Sai Baba especially because He is so practical, and even better He made it "simple" for me


That is exactly what my impression always has been of Hinduism. Very practical and useful, that's what I like so much about Hinduism.


Are there Hindus that believe in shortcuts to the mountaintop? Some Christians do "Surrender to Jesus and you are saved". Hinduism I don't know.

I don't actually know you, nor you me. In my sampradaya the practical is detailed. That's what I was getting at. In some western simplistic Vedanta, yes, it's a shortcut. A dangerous shortcut. It consists of the belief that 'all is God' or 'I am God' on an external level, and therefore there is no use doing anything. No temple worship, cause I'm beyond that. No service because it doesn't matter, etc. 'Jnana' yoga without the previous bricks that hold it up. It's similar to the 'Jesus saved me' mentality you alluded to.

As for Sai Baba, I've seen a variety. Some are like the Jesus types except that Jesus is replaced with Sai, but others are wonderful cheerful uplifting people. So much is on the individual.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Sorry, must have grabbed that from some faded and distorted memory current. Upon further research the master spoke a lot on bliss.

Ramana Maharshi: The Duty of Man — Final Liberation and Bliss
Now you make much more sense to me then your previous replies on Ramana Maharshi.
Thanks for sharing this link.

Everytime I read Ramana material makes me happy. Simple explained and to the point. First line is why I could not follow Christianity in Church.
The greatest error of a man is to think that he is weak by nature, evil by nature. Every man is divine and strong in his real nature. What are weak and evil are his habits, his desires and thoughts, but not himself. Aim high, aim at the highest, and all lower aims are thereby achieved. It is looking below on the stormy sea of differences that makes you sink. Look up, beyond these and see the One Glorious Real, and you are saved.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Now you make much more sense to me then your previous replies on Ramana Maharshi.
Thanks for sharing this link.

Everytime I read Ramana material makes me happy. Simple explained and to the point. First line is why I could not follow Christianity in Church.
I used to get 'the Mountain Path'. My Guru's Guru's Guru, famous in Sri Lanka, sat with him once upon a time. It was silence only. I read Brunton's 'A Search in Sacred India'.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I don't actually know you, nor you me. In my sampradaya the practical is detailed. That's what I was getting at. In some western simplistic Vedanta, yes, it's a shortcut. A dangerous shortcut. It consists of the belief that 'all is God' or 'I am God' on an external level, and therefore there is no use doing anything.
Was not that hard to sense, but glad I asked. You have got me totally wrong. I don't follow "western simplistic Vedanta". I don't know if it's a dangerous shortcut, but what you describe might easily lead to spiritual ego, which is the biggest obstacle on the spiritual path; incurable I read.

I remember you telling that your path is detailed. I know how detailed Hinduism can be, the priests in Sai Baba's Ashrams were busy all day with the pujas and prayers. I have chosen to follow Sai Baba (as good as I can). So it's a different path then the path that you follow. I would not even think that my path is superior than the path of others. Sai Baba made that very clear "do not ever judge other's spiritual connection with God". So I stay far from that. I only need to worry about my own sincerity. I just try to follow Sai Baba's guidance (making mistakes, but getting up each time)

No temple worship, cause I'm beyond that. .
Sai Baba teaches that every act is best offered to God. Seva, Bhakthi and Jnana. Thinking one is above temple worship is spiritual ego; not wise

'Jnana' yoga without the previous bricks that hold it up. It's similar to the 'Jesus saved me' mentality you alluded to.
I don't believe the Spiritual Path is that easy. But maybe it is "If you surrender to Jesus". I just don't know. I hope for them it is that easy.

I think the below experience I had will make clear why your idea about me was totally wrong:

1996 I met an "Italian Yogi" in Sai Baba's Ashram who was married to a French woman. He stayed a few years in the ashram while I was there too
Test 1: He got into a car accident. Broke 13 bones/ribs. In the ambulance Sai Baba appeared in a vision telling him "you do yoga, no operation". He was quite good, so he managed without help of doctors to cure all broken bones (arm, leg and hip) and ribs (4).
Test 2: Sai Baba came in his dream and told him that his wife had sex with a Kashmiri man in Puttaparthi (he even showed him who it was). Baba also appeared in dream of Kashmiri and told him he will be killed because what he had done. The Kashmiri fled to Kashmir (and that was a smart move to follow up Baba's advice, because this Yogi was also black belt karate and might have killed him; once he kicked an Indian policeman in Whitefield to the ground, who mistreated his son).
Test 3: His son got sick and he went to hospital with son (France). Then doctors wanted to do all kind of tests. He was scared his son would die. Sai Baba told him in dream to come to His Ashram. Scared to leave his son behind, he did follow Baba's advice. and he came. I never saw him walking around Ganesha before, but 1 day he was on his knees in front of Sai Baba's house. Asking Sai Baba for help, because as he said "I am impotent now", I don't know what to do. Baba told him to bring his son to the Ashram and Baba would take care of His (Baba's) son (as Baba was there when Yogi's son was born in Baba's hospital). He went back to France and he had to kidnap his son, because doctors did not want to release the son. And came to Sai Baba and Sai Baba took care of His son. Because of this he can never enter France again. But his son was fine.

On the day of Test 3, I walked up to Sai Baba's "thought of the day", which was amazing (it read something like below):
Some people follow the path of Karma Yoga, some Bhakthi Yoga. Some people follow the path of Jnana Yoga and think "I am God". Very well Baba said, then God will test them accordingly. And God will make the Tests just a little harder then they can ever handle. So the really smart people NEVER let go of Bhakti. ParaBhakti is the path of the wise.

From these experiences I made my plan and said "Sai Baba the path of Jnana is not for me". I do like the concept of Advaita though.

I have Crohn disease, kidney malfunction (so painkillers for Crohn I can't take), heart valve, osteoporose problems (due to kidney trouble) just to mention a few. Doctor told me I was going to die, then Sai Baba took over. I need God. I will never say "I am God" belittling Karma and Bhakti path of others.

You are totally wrong. Sai Baba told me to study Yoga Vasistha. So I do. But I do tell him "I need you", it's a nice concept "I am God". When I can take care of my own problems then the path "I am God" makes more sense to me. Sai Baba cured a few problems of mine in a flash, and left a few for me to handle. I don't even ask Him to cure the other problems, because they are perfect to keep me humble and never forget Sai Baba's Grace.

Below I have some experiences that showed me clearly how easy it is to fall in the trap of ego when on the spiritual life. I have my own blind spots of course, but it's always easier to see mistakes when others make them. At least I try to do my best to learn from mistake others make, and I hope to see my own blind spots also. Introspection is my favorite, so normally I see plenty of things to work on for myself. And I had quite a few interviews with Baba, and He was always generous to show me my points where I could improve (plenty of homework for the rest of my life).

Jnana, "I am God" can be a big trap:
I met a disciple of Ramana Maharshi, Papaji. He said that first He was on the path of Bhakti for many, many years. Then He followed "Who Am I" practice of Ramana Maharshi. 3 years continuously 24/7 doing this. Of course I don't know if He is for real or not. But at least He gave credit to Bhakti and made clear that the path of Jnana normally is very hard work. Not just declare "I am God", so I am enlightened.

Bhakti can be a big trap:
Once there was a western woman (Osho devotee coming to Papaji when Osho died). Papaji was telling story about the Gopis who love Krishna very much. Then this western woman told Papaji "I also have this Love for Krishna". NO you don't, he interupted her. You had sex with your boyfriend yesterday night. That is not "Loving Krishna" like the Gopis did. He could be quite down to earth.
And Sai Baba usually (not to all of course) tells "This is Kali Yuga, all have crazy monkey mind. You can't even concentrate if a mosquito sits on your nose. Better you follow the path of Karma Yoga or Bhakti Yoga; Meditation is too hard in Kali Yuga".

Seva can be a big trap:
Once in an interview the Seva Coordinator asked Baba "Is it good seva we do in Croatia?". Swami asked her "what?". She repeated like 5 times, and Baba repeated like 5 times "what?". I got this message loud and clear, I think the second time already. Finally she asked "Is it good to do seva in Croatia?". Immediately Swami smiled and said "Very good, swami is very happy if you do Seva".

Guru Grace can be a big trap:
Sai Baba produced lingams and said whoever sees this lingam is karma free. One day in interview swami tells a woman "I see you next birth". But swami I saw this lingam, so karma free you said (no more birth). That was then, now is now, Sai Baba replied

I learned some very good lessons regarding how a Master teaches, from first hand experiences. It is not always what it seems when God, Prophet, Guru, Messenger tells things. Sai Baba could be very personal when telling someone something. That was meant only for that person. Others want to make a verse/message for all out of this. But that is not always the case. Hence I am very careful with verses in Scriptures.

Today there was a Muslim giving a totally different interpretation of Koran verses. Exactly what felt right to me. But never before I heard Muslims interpret it that way. He was full of compassion in his interpretation, where others interpreted it in a violent way, he saw a compassionate way.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
True, you did not say it.
Did the thought cross your mind?

No, not at all. Sai Baba is universalist, that's much different than simplistic advaita. Simplistic advaita takes Ramana's beautiful teachings, and puts them into the intellectual instinctive realms where they don't belong. Usually a huge distortion of 'I'.

Universalism OTOH, has a place within Hinduism. Not my personal view but sure.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
No, not at all. Sai Baba is universalist, that's much different than simplistic advaita. Simplistic advaita takes Ramana's beautiful teachings, and puts them into the intellectual instinctive realms where they don't belong. Usually a huge distortion of 'I'.

Universalism OTOH, has a place within Hinduism. Not my personal view but sure.
Thanks. Very clear. That's exactly how it feels to me "take Ramana's beautiful teachings and ...Usually a huge distortion of 'I'"

Yes, Sai Baba makes Advaita not simple. 1 in a billion reaches the final goal he once said (so 7 max on earth)
When Ramana died vibuthi came out of his toe, and He declared that Ramana merged with him
Of course if you don't believe in Sai Baba that says nothing to you
But it does say that Ramana was this "1 in a billion"
So Simplistic Advaita won't fly with Sai Baba
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I used to get 'the Mountain Path'. My Guru's Guru's Guru, famous in Sri Lanka, sat with him once upon a time. It was silence only. I read Brunton's 'A Search in Sacred India'.
What is the name of your Guru? Living in India?

And your Guru's Guru's Guru, who met Ramana; was this mentioned in this book?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
What is the name of your Guru? Living in India?

And your Guru's Guru's Guru, who met Ramana; was this mentioned in this book?

This is Brunton's book: https://www.amazon.com/Search-Secret-India-Paul-Brunton/dp/1614272891

My Guru is Bodhinatha Veylanswami, His Guru was Sivaya Subramuniyswami (also my Guru until he passed) and His Guru was Siva Yogaswami of Jaffna Sri Lanka. (He's the one that sat with Sage Ramana) His Guru was Chellappaswami and before that was Kadaitswami. It's a lineage.

So we're like the aadheenams and mutts, a lineage that keeps a living Guru. There is always another to carry it on, and each is appointed by the previous one. It solves a lot of potential problems.

Brunton searched out quite a few Gurus, but kept going back to Sri Ramana.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Why is it important to know those things ?

We have experience of fleeting joy. It is important to understand (and realise) that unbroken joy — unbroken peace — is the very nature of oneself and that it is not generated/created from contact with object/s.

But why do you ask?
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Thank you for sharing. Ramana Maharshi is great. Whenever I see His name mentioned makes me smile already.
He is my favorite Teacher on "Who Am I" practice. He explains it so simple ... although I admit not easy.

I agree. Shri Ramana's highest teaching is "Just Be". That is one level, which however is only for a select few. How can you "Just be", without getting entangled in thoughts? Only a very high level of sadhaka-s are able to follow this prescription.

He also taught the enquiry 'Whence this I?' That is another level but again not suitable for most. The method involves constant vigilance over any and all thought and enquire "To whom the thought arose?" and follow up the process of discriminative enquiry of 'seer versus seen' or 'neti-neti', till only pure awareness remains.

He taught: mantra japa, especially the silent-internal-continous ajapa japa. This is another level and probably more suitable for more people and yet it may not be suitable for all. For example, we may not be able to carry out 'ajapa japa' unceasingly while we are busy in worldly duties.

He alternatively teaches us to carry on our duties, dedicating them to Ishwara. This seems simple yet it is not. Total unconditional submission of ego-will to God is not simple.

So, Shri Ramana also does encourage ritualistic puja for anyone who ae so inclined. But surely ritualistic puja is culture and sampradaya (school) specific. The same mode of puja cannot be universally applicable to all.

...
I follow the last three methods. But the point is that whatever method one may follow, Ramana's teaching, which is the Advaita Vedantic teaching, is about the Atman -- sat-chit-ananda.

...
 
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Howard Is

Lucky Mud
How can you "Just be", without getting entangled in thoughts?

By not seeing thoughts as the adversary.

Often, in yoga or meditation classes, I have heard the instruction “observe the space between thoughts, try to remain in that space”.

My experience tells me that a better instruction is - take as your object of meditation the space-like mind in which thoughts arise and pass away.

This dissolves the duality of thought and non-thought, and trains the mind to be in meditative detachment even as thinking is occurring.

Mahamudra teaches the coemergence of nirvana and samsara.
 
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