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God and Evolution

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The theory is there. Discovery of Tiktaalik doesn't describe a go-between evolving specimen of something between fish and land crawlers. That part is a theory.

:rolleyes:

Again ignoring the actual facts of the matter.

Once more:

- scientists note that hundreds of millions of years ago, animals only lived in the sea.
- scientists note that later on, animals also lived on land
- scientists hypothesize that at some point, sea animals must have evolved into land animals.
- scientists narrow down the period in which that must have taken place
- scientists then look on a geological map to see where they can find rocks of that age
- upon pinpointing such rock, they predict that they should be able to find A TRANSITIONAL SPECIES burried in that rock that has traits of its fish ancestors AND traits of later land crawlers, and they list specific traits that they expect to find.

- finally, scientists go to that specific place, dig down and lo and behold: they dig up Tiktaalik. A fossil with the exact traits they expected to find, in the location they expected to find it.


How is this possible, if evolution is false?

Were they just lucky?
Is it just a coincidence that they just happen to stumble upon a fossil of the right age, with the right traits in the right location? Do you think it's really reasonable to assume this kind of luck?

Do you have ANY idea of the amount of fields / theories involved in this prediction?
It's not just evolution. It's also geology, natural history, dating mechanisms, etc etc.

So either this is exactly what it looks like: solid confirming evidence for these theories, OR these people are so lucky that they might just as well have won the lottery 100 times in a row.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Your questions are often ill formed and people can have a very difficult time deciphering what you are asking.

You tend to use terms improperly which results in people answering a different question than you want to ask. It appears right now that you are asking how plants became a thing. You are not asking the proper question here. You should ask about the trait that led to plants existing. So let me give you a hand:

How did photosynthesis evolve?

And this would have been a very good question to ask since it leads to a part of evolution where we do not have all of the answers yet. But one thing that history tells us, not knowing all of the answers is never a valid excuse to put God into the equation. It is best to say "we don't know yet" and continue to work it out. Before I go on here is an excellent article on the topic:

Early Evolution of Photosynthesis

A few highlights. An early eukaryote probably began a symbiotic relationship with some organisms similar to modern cynao-bacteria. Cyanobacteria have a rather simple photosynthesis. In other words, some cyanobacteria were engulfed but not digested and the two organisms worked so well together they essentially became one. A similar event happened in our past.

Those species eventually formed colonies and colonies led to specialization. If you want more details I again find a biologist, or do your own homework. Do not ask leading questions and avoid creationist sites and you will get real answers to your questions.
I am not asking about photosynthesis. I am asking how did plants and animals evolve? Did one come before the other? I guess plants came first, then a plant-animal like those plants that eat bugs, then the plant got legs or something like that and became an animal not rooted in soil. Am I on the right track, despite my use of common talk terminology?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I am not asking about photosynthesis. I am asking how did plants and animals evolve? Did one come before the other? I guess plants came first, then a plant-animal like those plants that eat bugs, then the plant got legs or something like that and became an animal not rooted in soil. Am I on the right track, despite my use of common talk terminology?

I don't think so. But again you might want to ask someone that really knows biology. Why even ask?

And no, plants and animals both were rather late additions to life. For most of our planets history there were only single celled organisms. Both plants and animals are by definition multi-cellular.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
:rolleyes:

Again ignoring the actual facts of the matter.

Once more:

- scientists note that hundreds of millions of years ago, animals only lived in the sea.
- scientists note that later on, animals also lived on land
- scientists hypothesize that at some point, sea animals must have evolved into land animals.
- scientists narrow down the period in which that must have taken place
- scientists then look on a geological map to see where they can find rocks of that age
- upon pinpointing such rock, they predict that they should be able to find A TRANSITIONAL SPECIES burried in that rock that has traits of its fish ancestors AND traits of later land crawlers, and they list specific traits that they expect to find.

- finally, scientists go to that specific place, dig down and lo and behold: they dig up Tiktaalik. A fossil with the exact traits they expected to find, in the location they expected to find it.


How is this possible, if evolution is false?

Were they just lucky?
Is it just a coincidence that they just happen to stumble upon a fossil of the right age, with the right traits in the right location? Do you think it's really reasonable to assume this kind of luck?

I can't say. Sounds like you don't believe in luck. Was it then from beyond?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I don't think so. But again you might want to ask someone that really knows biology. Why even ask?

And no, plants and animals both were rather late additions to life. For most of our planets history there were only single celled organisms. Both plants and animals are by definition multi-cellular.
I don't think so. But again you might want to ask someone that really knows biology. Why even ask?

And no, plants and animals both were rather late additions to life. For most of our planets history there were only single celled organisms. Both plants and animals are by definition multi-cellular.
You ask why I am asking. Because animals, generally speaking insofar as I know, cannot live without vegetation. Now of course, not being an expert , there's always something wonderful to learn about the creation.
The third day, Genesis 1:11Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation: seed-bearing plants and fruit trees, each bearing fruit with seed according to its kind.” And it was so.
After that, on the 5th day, God made water animals and flying creatures.
Genesis 1:20 God said, “Let the waters teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the sky.”
23And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
Third day, vegetation.
Fifth day, water animals, and flying animals--birds.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
- reproduce, passing on your (mutated) genes
- mutate during reproduction
- survive
- repeat

That's it in a nutshell.
It really is that simple.



One could fill a year worth of biology classes with that explanation. No, I will likely not be able to explain that to you in sufficient detail in a forum post....

However, you are know talking about evolutionary history. Wheter it is the development of plants and animals, the development of photosynthesis, the development of wings or eyes or echo location or <insert whatever evolved trait or group you wish>... the process by which it happens is the same for all of them.

If you really are that interested in how animals and plants evolved, I suggest you get a good book or two on the topic.




Are you aware that scientists have seen multi-cellular life develop in the lab from single celled yeast?

Lab yeast make evolutionary leap to multicellularity




All evolutionary developments in biology happen through the same evolutionary processes.
Not sure what kind of answer you are looking for here...
It really shouldn't be such a hard question to answer. According to the theory, what came first? Plants or animals? Or did they come at the same time?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
:rolleyes:

Again ignoring the actual facts of the matter.

Once more:

- scientists note that hundreds of millions of years ago, animals only lived in the sea.
- scientists note that later on, animals also lived on land
- scientists hypothesize that at some point, sea animals must have evolved into land animals.
- scientists narrow down the period in which that must have taken place
- scientists then look on a geological map to see where they can find rocks of that age
- upon pinpointing such rock, they predict that they should be able to find A TRANSITIONAL SPECIES burried in that rock that has traits of its fish ancestors AND traits of later land crawlers, and they list specific traits that they expect to find.

- finally, scientists go to that specific place, dig down and lo and behold: they dig up Tiktaalik. A fossil with the exact traits they expected to find, in the location they expected to find it.


How is this possible, if evolution is false?

Were they just lucky?
Is it just a coincidence that they just happen to stumble upon a fossil of the right age, with the right traits in the right location? Do you think it's really reasonable to assume this kind of luck?

Do you have ANY idea of the amount of fields / theories involved in this prediction?
It's not just evolution. It's also geology, natural history, dating mechanisms, etc etc.

So either this is exactly what it looks like: solid confirming evidence for these theories, OR these people are so lucky that they might just as well have won the lottery 100 times in a row.
So because it has fin-like appendages, you are saying that it's not a transition from water beings to animal beings? I'll leave it there because of course, I have more questions. You say these animals are "solid confirming evidence" for WHAT theories?? What's the theory in this case? Evolution of a water animal transitioning eventually to a land animal crawler? If not, what's it evidence for? Just evolution? Kindly explain, if you will, how this is evidence of anything beyond an animal that looks like a Tiktaalik. If you say it is evidence of a (or the) theory of evolution, where does it fit in, what is the transition, or is it evidence of transition.
Oh yes, and P.S., what are the right traits, as you say, in the right location? Right traits for what?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Okay, first don't take tales of Doom and Gloom to seriously if you have not checked them out. Yes AGW is a very very serious problem. But it will not wipe out all life.

Second all life is "transitional" at least until it goes extinct. ...
It is? I suppose by that you mean it could have transitioned if the species kept alive before it went extinct and did not transition to another state of being which emerged from the previous one.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
A combination of specialization and changing environments. I could give you some of the details, but there are biologists here that know far more about it than I do. Why do you ask? You are right now attempting to run when you cannot even walk yet.
How is it running? I mean it should be simple, since the theory is that all life evolved from a single cell which fabulously made other cells, or from which more emerged at the same time, more or less, branching out to multitudinous cellular structures, one aspect forming plants, and the other aspect either forming plants which became animals, or different evolutions of a phyla from the multi-cellular organisms. Let me make that a bit clearer, if possible. First there was a cell that emerged from non-living matter. Then that cell either made more cells from itself, or other cells like it emerged also from non-living matter. I am not talking about abiogenesis here, although it is integral, absolutely necessary for evolution to have occurred. I am speaking of the first cell or first cellS burgeoning to plants, which became animals, or plants which stayed plants (in other words did not evolve to become animals in the long run).
So- one cell multiplied by itself.
Or - more than one cell emerged from non-living matter and evolved in different directions, one eventually making plants, the other making animals. Maybe it was the atmosphere.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It is? I suppose by that you mean it could have transitioned if the species kept alive before it went extinct and did not transition to another state of being which emerged from the previous one.

Your concept of evolution is rather strange. A very good analogy of evolution is languages. We know that Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, and at least one more language that I cannot remember right now came from Latin. But at no point did a Latin speaking mother give birth to a Spanish speaking child. There were many transitional languages in between. Speciation is rather similar and there is no direct goal to it. Speciation is reactionary, it does not have a goal.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
How is it running? I mean it should be simple, since the theory is that all life evolved from a single cell which fabulously made other cells, or from which more emerged at the same time, more or less, branching out to multitudinous cellular structures, one aspect forming plants, and the other aspect either forming plants which became animals, or different evolutions of a phyla from the multi-cellular organisms. Let me make that a bit clearer, if possible. First there was a cell that emerged from non-living matter. Then that cell either made more cells from itself, or other cells like it emerged also from non-living matter. I am not talking about abiogenesis here, although it is integral, absolutely necessary for evolution to have occurred. I am speaking of the first cell or first cellS burgeoning to plants, which became animals, or plants which stayed plants (in other words did not evolve to become animals in the long run).
So- one cell multiplied by itself.
Or - more than one cell emerged from non-living matter and evolved in different directions, one eventually making plants, the other making animals. Maybe it was the atmosphere.

You are not paying attention. There is nothing "fabulous" about evolution besides it being a fact. Your earlier question was once again poorly formed. Plants and animals did not appear until sometime after their ancestors separated.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Your concept of evolution is rather strange. A very good analogy of evolution is languages. We know that Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, and at least one more language that I cannot remember right now came from Latin. But at no point did a Latin speaking mother give birth to a Spanish speaking child. There were many transitional languages in between. Speciation is rather similar and there is no direct goal to it. Speciation is reactionary, it does not have a goal.
I was thinking earlier that the word evolution is rather comprehensive, and does not always mean genetic or biologic change. But I didn't want to bring that up, because I am not talking of social evolution, but rather supposed genetic change, movement, by chance (no purpose, as you say, "no direct goal") called evolution. As far as direct goal of speciation or any other genetic type change, you are saying there is no goal. I would say that is true because something like the Tiktaalik doesn't think, "Yes, I'd like to crawl on the land in a better way than this," so it pushed itself to change. Obviously you're saying that's not so. It mindlessly evolved (morphed by genetic changes) to a land crawler that did not mate with water animals eventually it at all. Therefore, the Tiktaalik just happened to be what the scientists were looking for -- a missing link they found -- as to say a transitional form from fish to land rover was in process. More or less, because you're saying, if I understand you correctly, it could have stayed as a Tiktaalik with no evolving genetic changes, micro or macro. Didn't need to change. Just did change.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You are not paying attention. There is nothing "fabulous" about evolution besides it being a fact. Your earlier question was once again poorly formed. Plants and animals did not appear until sometime after their ancestors separated.
I didn't want to use the word miraculous, so I used the word fabulous. One might say it was a fabulous sunset, not a misnomer. No life has been discovered on other planets so far, yet it is hoped by some maybe (?) that the human race, as it continues making life very difficult for itself on the earth will transport itself to another planet.
So which came first, plants or animals?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I was thinking earlier that the word evolution is rather comprehensive, and does not always mean genetic or biologic change. But I didn't want to bring that up, because I am not talking of social evolution, but rather supposed genetic change, movement, by chance (no purpose, as you say, "no direct goal") called evolution. As far as direct goal of speciation or any other genetic type change, you are saying there is no goal. I would say that is true because something like the Tiktaalik doesn't think, "Yes, I'd like to crawl on the land in a better way than this," so it pushed itself to change. Obviously you're saying that's not so. It mindlessly evolved (morphed by genetic changes) to a land crawler that did not mate with water animals eventually it at all. Therefore, the Tiktaalik just happened to be what the scientists were looking for -- a missing link they found -- as to say a transitional form from fish to land rover was in process. More or less, because you're saying, if I understand you correctly, it could have stayed as a Tiktaalik with no evolving genetic changes, micro or macro. Didn't need to change. Just did change.

Does this make sense to anyone?

It looks like you are grasping as straws. As the saying goes: "None are so blind as those that won't let themselves see."

If you believe the creation myth you still need to explain why your God had to lie.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You are not paying attention. There is nothing "fabulous" about evolution besides it being a fact. Your earlier question was once again poorly formed. Plants and animals did not appear until sometime after their ancestors separated.
I said, "First there was a cell that emerged from non-living matter." Is that true as far as you're concerned and what you consider as fact?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I didn't want to use the word miraculous, so I used the word fabulous. One might say it was a fabulous sunset, not a misnomer. No life has been discovered on other planets so far, yet it is hoped by some maybe (?) that the human race, as it continues making life very difficult for itself on the earth will transport itself to another planet.
So which came first, plants or animals?


Since the evolved separately from each other and early animals did not rely on plants, they consumed single celled life, it is hard to say whether plants or animals evolved first.

By the way, evolution is perfectly ordinary. An accomplishment to be sure, but no more fabulous than traveling from New York city to California, something that countless Americans did without motorized transport at all.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I said, "First there was a cell that emerged from non-living matter." Is that true as far as you're concerned and what you consider as fact?

Right now you are no longer discussing evolution. You are discussing abiogenesis. That concept is still in the hypothetical stage. The answer to that is is far from complete, but once again, there is only evidence for abiogenesis. There is no evidence to the contrary. If it makes you feel any better you can believe that the first cell was magically poofed into life, but I do not see why you would limit your God in that fashion. Why try to tell God how he made the Earth? Doesn't it make a lot more sense to try to find out how?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Does this make sense to anyone?

It looks like you are grasping as straws. As the saying goes: "None are so blind as those that won't let themselves see."

If you believe the creation myth you still need to explain why your God had to lie.
I see no substantive proof in the theory of evolution as true or factual. Anyway, the most recent evolutionary form (homo sapiens) are ruining the earth's atmosphere, so no worries for you about evolution. Or setting up human life continuing to evolve on other planets. I'm here discussing evolution and why I don't believe it. You're here because you support the theory. And so far I don't see the evidence that fits the theory of mindless evolution.
Now here's an interesting article about the take by a scientist:
‘The Models Are Too Conservative’: A Paleontologist on Climate Change Today
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I see no substantive proof in the theory of evolution as true or factual. Anyway, the most recent evolutionary form (homo sapiens) are ruining the earth's atmosphere, so no worries for you about evolution. Or setting up human life continuing to evolve on other planets. I'm here discussing evolution and why I don't believe it. You're here because you support the theory. And so far I don't see the evidence that fits the theory of mindless evolution.
Now here's an interesting article about the take by a scientist:

That is only because you are using the ostrich defense. If you won't let yourself learn due to your fears there is no way that you can learn.

And you forgot your link.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Right now you are no longer discussing evolution. You are discussing abiogenesis. That concept is still in the hypothetical stage. The answer to that is is far from complete, but once again, there is only evidence for abiogenesis. There is no evidence to the contrary. If it makes you feel any better you can believe that the first cell was magically poofed into life, but I do not see why you would limit your God in that fashion. Why try to tell God how he made the Earth? Doesn't it make a lot more sense to try to find out how?
I've already told you that I, as a mere human, do not have the capacity to know the specifics of how God made life on the earth. Other than what is written in the Bible. And unless bacterium have mouths and brains to tell others how they first got here -- as one person said here -- no need for them to write anything or subsequent living matters before human history in written form -- Again -- you say life came about from? but don't want to touch on that because you say that's another subject. I don't think so, but that is what scientists believe started mindless, purposeless evolution.

So evolutionists don't really know, with all the surmising, how or where life came about purportedly in the unicellular fashion. And do they surmise that at least one cell, the first living matter, multiplied by itself, perhaps duplicating itself? And if it wasn't just one cell multiplying, could be it was more than one cell at the beginning of life. See, I don't want to talk about that one cell, since then you object that is about abiogenesis. No, it's not. It's about the one-cell first living item that scientists say must have been without a creator. Or -- is it more than one cell at the beginning of life, perhaps one going in one direction, and another going in another direction, so as one moves mindlessly to producing plants and another producing eventually animals. Notably sans an intelligent force (you call it magical as if the evolution of life you believe in is not fantastic) behind the one cell or more-than-one cell. Well, we had a nice discussion for a while, and I thank you for it.
 
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