Boundary-less and Limitless

[atanu]

This has link to the thread Idealism offers a more comprehensive and more parsimonious explanation of reality than materialism

I have been having discussions regarding nature of awareness and self with respected members @blü 2 , @Left Coast , and @Polymath257 and others. I have been asked to explain about these concepts in various threads. Currently, there is a thread wherein @Left Coast had asked for empirical evidences that consciousness was the unborn ontological primitive and is limitless.

Idealism offers a more comprehensive and more parsimonious explanation of reality than materialism

In general, these discussions often get mired in confusion because of different understanding of what consciousness is meant in western science and philosophy on one hand and Vedic philosophy (which I am following) on the other. Conventionally in western thought, manifest sensation (or thought) is equated to consciousness. Vedic philosophy considers consciousness to be deeper than sensations or thoughts. So, when commonly it is thought that deep sleep is unconscious, Vedic philosophy claims deep sleep is dense-unpartitioned consciousness and hence it seems unconscious.

Before I answer to @Left Coast on the empirical evidences that indicate our own consciousness to be all pervasive, I feel that a short primer video may be very useful. I am linking a concise video on the subject. It is a general video and has no link with any religion or any religious subject. It is about understanding one's own awareness.

I feel the video is concise and well made. Most important points are explained systematically and thus may form the basis of further discussion. So I wish that all may enjoy the video.

I also invite resident guru (@Sunstone), resident hermit (@SalixIncendium) , resident scientist (@sayak83) and resident philosopher (@Willamena) to this thread.

Namaste to all.

 

[shunyadragon]

Idealism offers a more comprehensive and more parsimonious explanation of reality than materialism

In general, these discussions often get mired in confusion because of different understanding of what consciousness is meant in western science and philosophy on one hand and Vedic philosophy (which I am following) on the other. Conventionally in western thought, manifest sensation (or thought) is equated to consciousness. Vedic philosophy considers consciousness to be deeper than sensations or thoughts. So, when commonly it is thought that deep sleep is unconscious, Vedic philosophy claims deep sleep is dense-unpartitioned consciousness and hence it seems unconscious.

I do not believe you can generalize about 'Western thought' as you do above. What you call materialism is an aspect of belief of many atheist and agnostics, but it is not a good generalization of ; 'Western thought.'

What you argue is the more spiritual view of consciousness, which is indeed very veriable among the diverse religions.

 

[Polymath257]

Amusing video. What I would suggest is that the experience of unlimited consciousness has been misinterpreted. Consciousness is, in fact, limited to our bodies and our brains. It consists of those thoughts, sensation, and emotions. When the sensations are 'turned off', the mind spontaneously creates illusions (sensory deprivation tanks can do this) and 'stilling the mind' is simply a different experience by the mind.

So, in my view, the basic mistake is seeing consciousness as unlimited. The support for that position is a faulty analogy with space but, as even acknowledged in the video, the perception is that our consciousness *is* limited. It is only when we turn down all that *is* consciousness (sensations, thoughts, emotions) that we get the *illusion* of it being unlimited.

So, I agree. We have to interpret our experiences correctly. I see no reason to think that the video does so.

 

[Willamena]

This has link to the thread Idealism offers a more comprehensive and more parsimonious explanation of reality than materialism

I have been having discussions regarding nature of awareness and self with respected members @blü 2 , @Left Coast , and @Polymath257 and others. I have been asked to explain about these concepts in various threads. Currently, there is a thread wherein @Left Coast had asked for empirical evidences that consciousness was the unborn ontological primitive and is limitless.

Idealism offers a more comprehensive and more parsimonious explanation of reality than materialism

In general, these discussions often get mired in confusion because of different understanding of what consciousness is meant in western science and philosophy on one hand and Vedic philosophy (which I am following) on the other. Conventionally in western thought, manifest sensation (or thought) is equated to consciousness. Vedic philosophy considers consciousness to be deeper than sensations or thoughts. So, when commonly it is thought that deep sleep is unconscious, Vedic philosophy claims deep sleep is dense-unpartitioned consciousness and hence it seems unconscious.

Before I answer to @Left Coast on the empirical evidences that indicate our own consciousness to be all pervasive, I feel that a short primer video may be very useful. I am linking a concise video on the subject. It is a general video and has no link with any religion or any religious subject. It is about understanding one's own awareness.

I feel the video is concise and well made. Most important points are explained systematically and thus may form the basis of further discussion. So I wish that all may enjoy the video.

I also invite resident guru (@Sunstone), resident hermit (@SalixIncendium) , resident scientist (@sayak83) and resident philosopher (@Willamena) to this thread.

Namaste to all.

Just a note: regarding technical confusion, it is no better to try to equate consciousness with space. Space is related to dimension, just as consciousness is related to thought.


PS: His description reflects Hume's theory of impressions.

 

[SalixIncendium]

While I appreciate the invite, I have no inclination to debate my personal experiences with regard to consciousness when we can't even agree on what consciousness actually is. I'll just say that my experiences contradict the idea that consciousness is limited to the brain and body and leave it at that.

I'd be glad to share these experiences in a discussion forum, but given that I only have subjective evidence to present, debating the knowledge based on said experiences is an exercise in futility.

 

[atanu]

While I appreciate the invite, I have no inclination to debate my personal experiences with regard to consciousness when we can't even agree on what consciousness actually is.

That is fine. Debating is not an aim, especially in this thread. For some people who have never been exposed to the consciousness first ontology, hearing about the Vedic view may help to open up enquiry.

I'll just say that my experiences contradict the idea that consciousness is limited to the brain and body and leave it at that.

Mine too.

I'd be glad to share these experiences in a discussion forum, but given that I only have subjective evidence to present, debating the knowledge based on said experiences is an exercise in futility.

I think that the presentation of Tadatmananda is systematic and logical. His presentation does not require one to have any prior experience.

...

 

[atanu]

Just a note: regarding technical confusion, it is no better to try to equate consciousness with space. Space is related to dimension, just as consciousness is related to thought.

I think the point is that one can easily visualise an object free infinite space.

PS: His description reflects Hume's theory of impressions.

Can you kindly explain a bit.
...

 

[Willamena]

Can you kindly explain a bit.
...

David Hume similarly distinguished between sense data (riptis?), for which he coined the word impressions, and ideas (thoughts), which he called a reflection of sense data. All experience is sense data, but we know the world as its reflection.

 

[atanu]

David Hume similarly distinguished between sense data (riptis?), for which he coined the word impressions, and ideas (thoughts), which he called a reflection of sense data. All experience is sense data, but we know the world as its reflection.

Thanks. Vedic conception distinguishes three kinds of mental impressions: perceptions, thoughts, and emotions (vrittis).

 

[paarsurrey]

This has link to the thread Idealism offers a more comprehensive and more parsimonious explanation of reality than materialism

I have been having discussions regarding nature of awareness and self with respected members @blü 2 , @Left Coast , and @Polymath257 and others. I have been asked to explain about these concepts in various threads. Currently, there is a thread wherein @Left Coast had asked for empirical evidences that consciousness was the unborn ontological primitive and is limitless.

Idealism offers a more comprehensive and more parsimonious explanation of reality than materialism

In general, these discussions often get mired in confusion because of different understanding of what consciousness is meant in western science and philosophy on one hand and Vedic philosophy (which I am following) on the other. Conventionally in western thought, manifest sensation (or thought) is equated to consciousness. Vedic philosophy considers consciousness to be deeper than sensations or thoughts. So, when commonly it is thought that deep sleep is unconscious, Vedic philosophy claims deep sleep is dense-unpartitioned consciousness and hence it seems unconscious.

Before I answer to @Left Coast on the empirical evidences that indicate our own consciousness to be all pervasive, I feel that a short primer video may be very useful. I am linking a concise video on the subject. It is a general video and has no link with any religion or any religious subject. It is about understanding one's own awareness.

I feel the video is concise and well made. Most important points are explained systematically and thus may form the basis of further discussion. So I wish that all may enjoy the video.

I also invite resident guru (@Sunstone), resident hermit (@SalixIncendium) , resident scientist (@sayak83) and resident philosopher (@Willamena) to this thread.

Namaste to all.

"deep sleep is unconscious"

Why do we sleep, please? I figure the answer lies in this simple question.
Or, why do we need rest?
Regards
_____________
[78:9]وَّ خَلَقۡنٰکُمۡ اَزۡوَاجًا ۙ﴿۹﴾
And We have created you in pairs,
[78:10]وَّ جَعَلۡنَا نَوۡمَکُمۡ سُبَاتًا ۙ﴿۱۰﴾
And We have made your sleep for rest,
[78:11]وَّ جَعَلۡنَا الَّیۡلَ لِبَاسًا ﴿ۙ۱۱﴾
And We have made the night as a covering,
[78:12]وَّ جَعَلۡنَا النَّہَارَ مَعَاشًا ﴿۪۱۲﴾
And We have made the day for the activities of life.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 78: An-Naba'

 

[paarsurrey]

Amusing video. What I would suggest is that the experience of unlimited consciousness has been misinterpreted. Consciousness is, in fact, limited to our bodies and our brains. It consists of those thoughts, sensation, and emotions. When the sensations are 'turned off', the mind spontaneously creates illusions (sensory deprivation tanks can do this) and 'stilling the mind' is simply a different experience by the mind.

So, in my view, the basic mistake is seeing consciousness as unlimited. The support for that position is a faulty analogy with space but, as even acknowledged in the video, the perception is that our consciousness *is* limited. It is only when we turn down all that *is* consciousness (sensations, thoughts, emotions) that we get the *illusion* of it being unlimited.

So, I agree. We have to interpret our experiences correctly. I see no reason to think that the video does so.

"the basic mistake is seeing consciousness as unlimited."

I agree with one.
I however figure that our consciousness is different when we are awake,and it dims down when we are asleep and it fades out further when we are in deep sleep, yet it is still there. If it would have been limitless then we would have neither ever born nor we would have ever died .
Unlimited consciousness is therefore of G-d, and none other has it. He has but for limited and specific time endowed it to us. We must thank Him and praise him, if we may happily but there is no compulsion whatsoever.

Regards
____________

[2:256]اَللّٰہُ لَاۤ اِلٰہَ اِلَّا ہُوَۚ اَلۡحَیُّ الۡقَیُّوۡمُ ۬ۚ لَا تَاۡخُذُہٗ سِنَۃٌ وَّ لَا نَوۡمٌ ؕ لَہٗ مَا فِی السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ مَا فِی الۡاَرۡضِ ؕ مَنۡ ذَا الَّذِیۡ یَشۡفَعُ عِنۡدَہٗۤ اِلَّا بِاِذۡنِہٖ ؕ یَعۡلَمُ مَا بَیۡنَ اَیۡدِیۡہِمۡ وَ مَا خَلۡفَہُمۡ ۚ وَ لَا یُحِیۡطُوۡنَ بِشَیۡءٍ مِّنۡ عِلۡمِہٖۤ اِلَّا بِمَا شَآءَ ۚ وَسِعَ کُرۡسِیُّہُ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ الۡاَرۡضَ ۚ وَ لَا یَـُٔوۡدُہٗ حِفۡظُہُمَا ۚ وَ ہُوَ الۡعَلِیُّ الۡعَظِیۡمُ ﴿۲۵۶﴾
Allah — there is no God but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that will intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them; and they encompass nothing of His knowledge except what He pleases. His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth; and the care of them burdens Him not; and He is the High, the Great.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah

 

[paarsurrey]

Just a note: regarding technical confusion, it is no better to try to equate consciousness with space. Space is related to dimension, just as consciousness is related to thought.


PS: His description reflects Hume's theory of impressions.

"it is no better to try to equate consciousness with space"

A nice point.
Regards

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

"deep sleep is unconscious"

Why do we sleep, please? I figure the answer lies in this simple question.
Or, why do we need rest?
Regards

Sleeping plays a crucial role in processing the events of the day and the things we've learned and consolidate them into our long term memory.

I wouldn't know how to explain it in technical neurological terms (and frankly I don't even know if a neurologist could), but in conceptual wording...

Let's talk about the brain as if it is a computer.
Your brain has 2 sets of "memories". Operational memory and long term storage.

All the input you get during the day, is stored in your operational memory. When you sleep, this information is processed and transfered to your long term storage as "memories" and knowledge you've acquired.

If you don't go to sleep, your operational memory keeps filling up. After a while, it will be "full". Your CPU will start running at lower speeds or you'll go into information overload. Physically, that will translate into having dificulty to focus. After some time, your brain will go beserk, to the point of full blown hallucinations etc. You'll essentially go crazy.

However if you go to sleep, your operational memory gets cleared and transfered into the long term storage.

This is why people are better at focussing after a good night sleep. Your operational memory is "clear" and it can run at full speed.

This is also why you get stuff like studying all day long till you see the words dancing on the page by the end of the night and you shoot into a panic because you can't properly remember what you learned that same morning. You go to bed to get some rest and your brain goes into processing mode.
You wake up and suddenly you remember everything that you couldn't remember the night before.


So that, at least, is a very crucial part of the process of sleeping and why we need to do it.
Another is about a similar function for all your other organs. Some sort of "mainenance" mode, which is just as important to those organs as it is important to the brain.

 

[paarsurrey]

Sleeping plays a crucial role in processing the events of the day and the things we've learned and consolidate them into our long term memory.

I wouldn't know how to explain it in technical neurological terms (and frankly I don't even know if a neurologist could), but in conceptual wording...

Let's talk about the brain as if it is a computer.
Your brain has 2 sets of "memories". Operational memory and long term storage.

All the input you get during the day, is stored in your operational memory. When you sleep, this information is processed and transfered to your long term storage as "memories" and knowledge you've acquired.

If you don't go to sleep, your operational memory keeps filling up. After a while, it will be "full". Your CPU will start running at lower speeds or you'll go into information overload. Physically, that will translate into having dificulty to focus. After some time, your brain will go beserk, to the point of full blown hallucinations etc. You'll essentially go crazy.

However if you go to sleep, your operational memory gets cleared and transfered into the long term storage.

This is why people are better at focussing after a good night sleep. Your operational memory is "clear" and it can run at full speed.

This is also why you get stuff like studying all day long till you see the words dancing on the page by the end of the night and you shoot into a panic because you can't properly remember what you learned that same morning. You go to bed to get some rest and your brain goes into processing mode.
You wake up and suddenly you remember everything that you couldn't remember the night before.


So that, at least, is a very crucial part of the process of sleeping and why we need to do it.
Another is about a similar function for all your other organs. Some sort of "mainenance" mode, which is just as important to those organs as it is important to the brain.

So sleep revitalizes our brain and other parts of the body and this is not a small thing. It is a gift from G-d, and we must thank G-d for it.
Can we term deep sleep as "deep consciousness" due to the important functions it performs else we would be crazy and lose consciousness altogether.

Regards
______________
[25:46]اَلَمۡ تَرَ اِلٰی رَبِّکَ کَیۡفَ مَدَّ الظِّلَّ ۚ وَ لَوۡ شَآءَ لَجَعَلَہٗ سَاکِنًا ۚ ثُمَّ جَعَلۡنَا الشَّمۡسَ عَلَیۡہِ دَلِیۡلًا ﴿ۙ۴۶﴾
Hast thou not seen how thy Lord lengthens the shade? And if He had pleased, He could have made it stationary. Then We make the sun a guide thereof.
[25:47]ثُمَّ قَبَضۡنٰہُ اِلَیۡنَا قَبۡضًا یَّسِیۡرًا ﴿۴۷﴾
Then We draw it in towards Ourself, an easy drawing in.
[25:48]وَ ہُوَ الَّذِیۡ جَعَلَ لَکُمُ الَّیۡلَ لِبَاسًا وَّ النَّوۡمَ سُبَاتًا وَّ جَعَلَ النَّہَارَ نُشُوۡرًا ﴿۴۸﴾
And He it is Who has made the night a covering for you, and Who has made sleep for rest, and has made the day for rising up.
[25:49]وَ ہُوَ الَّذِیۡۤ اَرۡسَلَ الرِّیٰحَ بُشۡرًۢا بَیۡنَ یَدَیۡ رَحۡمَتِہٖ ۚ وَ اَنۡزَلۡنَا مِنَ السَّمَآءِ مَآءً طَہُوۡرًا ﴿ۙ۴۹﴾
And He it is Who sends the winds as glad tidings before His mercy, and We send down pure water from the sky,
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 25: Al-Furqan

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So sleep revitalizes our brain and other parts of the body and this is not a small thing. It is a gift from G-d, and we must thank G-d for it.

That is just a religious belief and the only reason you propose it, is because you already believe it.

Can we term deep sleep as "deep consciousness" due to the important functions it performs else we would be crazy and lose consciousness altogether.

No. None of it can be classified as "conscious" or "consciousness", seeing as how it happens when you aren't actually consciousness, but in REM sleep..

If anything, you'ld have to call it sub-consciouss.