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Are we wasting our lives?

FooYang

Active Member
This thread is in Science and Religion as it is about Truth and how each of us chooses to find, 'what is Truth'?

I seem to attract quite a few warnings for trying to convert people to my faith, even when I say repeatedly that I can not, do not have the ability to convert any person and do not want to convert any person.

My stance is that I acknowledge a higher power that gifts knowledge to any heart that power chooses to give knowledge to. My part is to share the knowledge given to my heart. The issue for me and me only, is to determine what is the gifted part and what is from my own self.

Thus the topic of the thread 'Are we wasting our lives'. To give it context from a faith side, it is said the entire purpose of our lives and of all knowledge is so that we can come to know and Love God. Our own choices and actions determine if we progress towards that goal, in this life.

The topic.

The apex of knowledge for both science and faith, is to know and Love God.

If this is not our goal, are we wasting this life?

If this is our goal, are our own actions wasting this life?

So again, this is about what is Truth?

The thread has no intent but to explore what is truth and my side of the debate is that Truth is all of God.

Regards Tony

Yes, the problem with Science is that it causes many people to have a fixation with the way in which falsehood works, rather than trying to understand that which isn't falsehood nor impermanent.
 

FooYang

Active Member
But also, on an economic and societal basis, we are, as a matter of fact, wasting our every breath and sweat on nothing at all. It's great to see.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
I see 'evidence takes many forms. I see a claim by a Messenger as evidence. I see they are the evidence for that claim. Why Is that then not valid evidence, as they can be proved true or false by that same Message?

One can choose any part of the Truth they wish to embrace, if you see science as the only path to 'Truth', is it scientific to deny that the spiritual does not exist?

perhaps it will convince you. butit should not convince someone who cannot have your experience. All you can do is tell someone what you think was the nature of your experience. That by default is a personal interpretation. It amounts to hearsay.

another person has no way to verify the existence of a messenger or that the experience was anything more than your brain ‘talking to itself”.
 

Phaedrus

Active Member
The problem is in assuming that one must have done a certain thing or be doing a certain thing in order to be living or have lived unwastefully. For instance, some people believe that the whole point of life is merely to reproduce, and that those who are not reproducing are not living properly.

The entire point of subjective individuality is that we each find our own meaning and our own paths toward happiness.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
My worldview is an adopted and shared worldview. It is adopted from the source of Truth, that is given by God.

If the source of Truth says that all Truth reverts back to God's Given Manifestation, then that is what I share.

If you choose not to investigate that source, then I do not expect that you will or can agree with the adopted worldview offered in this thread.

On the other hand that Truth is within all of us and as such I can not say how you will react to such disclosure.

Regards Tony
I don't pretend to know what is the "truth" in the sense that you are assuming to have found/realized/know. I don't know if there is even such "truth" to be found. We can obviously discover and know-about various aspects of the existence we find ourselves within - but the really, really big questions like the how's and why's of the beginning ("source," if there is one) may very well be unknowable, or may not really be anything other than an idea.

To pretend that you have concrete knowledge beyond not knowing in this arena is, I believe, folly.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
This thread is in Science and Religion as it is about Truth and how each of us chooses to find, 'what is Truth'?

I seem to attract quite a few warnings for trying to convert people to my faith, even when I say repeatedly that I can not, do not have the ability to convert any person and do not want to convert any person.

My stance is that I acknowledge a higher power that gifts knowledge to any heart that power chooses to give knowledge to. My part is to share the knowledge given to my heart. The issue for me and me only, is to determine what is the gifted part and what is from my own self.

Sounds good. Thank you for letting us know your biases.

Thus the topic of the thread 'Are we wasting our lives'. To give it context from a faith side, it is said the entire purpose of our lives and of all knowledge is so that we can come to know and Love God. Our own choices and actions determine if we progress towards that goal, in this life.

Well, that is the purpose that *some* people adopt as their goal. Others have different goals.

The topic.

The apex of knowledge for both science and faith, is to know and Love God.

Simply false. The goal of science is to understand the physical world using testable hypotheses and observation. No deities are required. And love of such is certainly NOT the goal.

If this is not our goal, are we wasting this life?

Well, *if* this is *your* goal, you get to decide for yourself if it is a waste. I see religion as a waste of time.

If this is our goal, are our own actions wasting this life?

So again, this is about what is Truth?

Truth is the collection of agreed upon statements of all minimal assumptioned maximally predictive theories based on observation.

The thread has no intent but to explore what is truth and my side of the debate is that Truth is all of God.

Well, if that works for you, fine. My position is almost precisely counter to that. I don't believe there *is* a God. But even without one, there is still knowledge to be gained and purpose to be had.

From what I have found, I see science is a gift from God so that in turn we can discover all that is of God.

Again, that is not the way I see things.

I find it interesting that science can discard evidence beyond the senses as unscientific, or indeed put a label on it that it is not a way to truth.

I know of no such 'evidence'. Your suggestion that dreams and NDEs are such is wrong. Both are quite dependent on our senses and how our brains process information. In dreams, the brain makes up a 'test reality' to process through issues of the waking life. NDEs are primarily what happen when the brain is under certain types of stress.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
The key thought is, if we do the best we can, how do we share that with others that suffer in misery and poverty? If we do not share with them, are we doing the best we can?

I see they are the choices we have and from a faith perspective, this is the concept of being born again. It means being born from the world of material gain, to the spiritual action of charity and service to all.

Regards Tony

I see. I just don't need a "spiritual" label for the choice. :shrug:
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I am not here to change your reality. It is yours.

I can only say that I have found that reality is more than our material senses. Mind is not connected to body.

I strongly disagree. Mind is a process of the brain.

I love movies like avatar that explore the greater mind, the fight against our lower self for the higher collective goal of mind.

You do realize those movies are fiction, right?
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Have you flown in your dreams? How is that possible as it is not a sensible reality in this world?

Many People that have NDE know what it is like to fly, they will mostly all say the experience they had can not be explained in this material world.

I did offer that many will reject these obvious proofs. Science is still at the early stages of research as to how this all happens.

Regards Tony


Yes, I have had the SENSE that I was flying in a dream before. It mimicked the SENSATIONS and FEELINGS one would have if I were gliding through the air. It was NOT an experience 'beyond my senses'. And yes, people who have had NDE's EXPLAIN that they have this SENSATION of flying. Again, an experience that is NOT 'beyond the senses'.

What you are talking about are dreams/hallucinations, which are nothing more than evidence for dreams and hallucinations. Claiming that it is somehow 'evidence beyond the senses' is just plain silly. You wouldn't even be aware of an experience that was 'beyond your senses'.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't pretend to know what is the "truth" in the sense that you are assuming to have found/realized/know. I don't know if there is even such "truth" to be found. We can obviously discover and know-about various aspects of the existence we find ourselves within - but the really, really big questions like the how's and why's of the beginning ("source," if there is one) may very well be unknowable, or may not really be anything other than an idea.

To pretend that you have concrete knowledge beyond not knowing in this arena is, I believe, folly.

It may be an idea, it may not be.

I have found ample evidence that God is the source of creation. That evidence does, not for me, need science to verify it, the evidence is proof enough, it proves itself.

That science needs evidence beyond the senses, is, I see, a symptom of materialisim, which is a great illness of spirit.

I see we are all not well, materialisim has taken this world to a very dark place, it blocks the full splendor of the light.

Regards Tony
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
It may be an idea, it may not be.

I have found ample evidence that God is the source of creation. That evidence does, not for me, need science to verify it, the evidence is proof enough, it proves itself.

Hmmm...could you explain what that evidence is?

That science needs evidence beyond the senses, is, I see, a symptom of materialisim, which is a great illmess.of spirit.

Well, it is one of the reasons science has been able to make so many advances over the last few centuries. It was when we started requiring ideas to be testable through observation that we actually started understanding more about how the universe works.

I see we are all not well, materialisim has taken this world to a very dark place, it blocks the full splendor of the light.

Just to be clear, we are talking about materialism from the metaphysical view and not the 'greedy get all you want' view.

With that in mind, I strongly disagree here. it is precisely this change in our attitudes that signaled the beginning of the advances science has been able to make. If you compare the world of 1500 with the world of 2000, I think it is clear that 1500 was much 'darker' on almost every scale. That difference is largely because of the advances of science.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sounds good. Thank you for letting us know your biases.

Which means what will follow is another bias opinion.

What I am sharing is not my opinion, it has a source and what I share does not need me or you. I can quote the source to show it is not my opinion.

The truth is the truth and the source advises us that God needs no one to accept or deny tge guven Truth. The bounty is ours to partake of, or neglect.

Its like the planet we live on. One of many that support life. We can look after it, or rape it of its resources and suffer the consequences of our own greed.

Science can only help, if science embraces spiritual virtues, the desire from the heart, to do good for all people. That transcends our animal nature.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I see. I just don't need a "spiritual" label for the choice. :shrug:

Thats perfectly ok :) Life is our choices and you can rest assured I will wish you always well and happy.

You can also consider, if life throws continued curve balls at you, that great happiness is always available none the less, that happiness does not need this material world. Who knows what the future will soon deliver?

Regards Tony
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Which means what will follow is another bias opinion.

Fair enough.

What I am sharing is not my opinion, it has a source and what I share does not need me or you. I can quote the source to show it is not my opinion.

No, it *is* your opinion. It may also be the opinion of your source.

The truth is the truth and the source advises us that God needs no one to accept or deny tge guven Truth. The bounty is ours to partake of, or neglect.

Yes, in your opinion. In my opinion, there is no God. We can either accept the truth of that or not. :)

Its like the planet we live on. One of many that support life. We can look after it, or rape it of its resources and suffer the consequences of our own greed.

Well, we don't know of any others that support life. But other than that, true.

Science can only help, if science embraces spiritual virtues, the desire from the heart, to do good for all people. That transcends our animal nature.

Again, I simply disagree. Science gives us knowledge, but it doesn't give us wisdom. It gives us the power to do many things, but not the will to do the right thing.

Very different things.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
It may be an idea, it may not be.

I have found ample evidence that God is the source of creation. That evidence does, not for me, need science to verify it, the evidence is proof enough, it proves itself.
Proves itself TO YOU. And this is one of the main problems with these lines of thinking. YOU are very likely the only benefactor of the pieces of evidence you are claiming as proof. And the problem lies in the fact that you, and many like you, refuse to acknowledge that the evidence is only pertinent to yourself, and so you try and impose the evidence on others, when it will not necessarily mean the same things to them.

That science needs evidence beyond the senses, is, I see, a symptom of materialisim, which is a great illness of spirit.
Well then what "ills the spirit" is a wondrous boon to the intellect and our knowledge-base, I'm afraid. Things that can easily be shared and evidenced BETWEEN ALL MEMBERS of the human race should definitely carry more importance than anything that is so subjective as to possibly only be of importance to one, or just a handful of members. Such as some personal "revelation." Sure, you can claim it is of the utmost importance to yourself... but claiming that it should be important to someone else is foolishness unless you can DEMONSTRATE the importance. For example, when someone discovered electricity - it was something that worked the way it worked, regardless who was wielding it, and so we could delve into all sorts of possibilities on how to use and harness this potential together - as in any/all of us. This is simply not the case with ANY "spiritual" endeavors. Not even close. And this should, rightfully, be acknowledged by you, and you should not attempt to persuade anyone to believe as you do for the reasons that you do, unless you can validly display that its reality and importance is SHARED by the both of you in a fundamental, and undeniable way. As it stands, it is all too easy for me to deny your God with zero affect on my life. There is no importance there. You want to see something important that neither of us can deny? How about gravity? Do you understand the difference I am describing?

I see we are all not well, materialisim has taken this world to a very dark place, it blocks the full splendor of the light.
I agree that humanity has its problems - it ALWAYS has. The same sorts of statements you're making now have been made throughout human history. But think of things this way - as theists always like to point out, religion has also been around almost always (during human existence, I mean)... and what has it accomplished? Are we, as a species/group "better" yet? Is religion the answer to our problems? If we were to look at its relatively long track record, a strong case for the efficacy of religion can't really be made, can it? Perhaps it is time that we try something else.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I strongly disagree. Mind is a process of the brain.

You do realize those movies are fiction, right?

Funny how some old fiction movies are now laughed at, as being backward, when in that time it was a glimpse of what in the future may be possible.

Movies like Avatar contain some deep spiritual meaning, even if the writer and producer are not aware of what it is.

They draw inspiration from a universal mind, or they draw it from a worldly self. Many great inventions come about by people through meditation in a realm that is external to the body.

If course you do not have to see it that way, but for me when I do the evidence is everywhere, but do not think that I see it always with material eyes.

Regards Tony
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Funny how some old fiction movies are now laughed at, as being backward, when in that time it was a glimpse of what in the future may be possible.

Movies like Avatar contain some deep spiritual meaning, even if the writer and producer are not aware of what it is.

They draw inspiration from a universal mind, or they draw it from a worldly self. Many great inventions come about by people through meditation in a realm that is external to the body.

If course you do not have to see it that way, but for me when I do the evidence is everywhere, but do not think that I see it always with material eyes.

Oh, I agree. it is the basis of the *fiction* they are writing. And the supernatural and spiritual have always been prime sources of fun fiction. The problems come when people take them as more than that. At least, that's how I see it.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, I have had the SENSE that I was flying in a dream before. It mimicked the SENSATIONS and FEELINGS one would have if I were gliding through the air. It was NOT an experience 'beyond my senses'. And yes, people who have had NDE's EXPLAIN that they have this SENSATION of flying. Again, an experience that is NOT 'beyond the senses'.

What you are talking about are dreams/hallucinations, which are nothing more than evidence for dreams and hallucinations. Claiming that it is somehow 'evidence beyond the senses' is just plain silly. You wouldn't even be aware of an experience that was 'beyond your senses'.

Except in both the NDE state and the Dream State we can traverse time and space. We can meet people long dead and hold a conversation. We can see the future, we can find an answer to a problem.

I would ask, how can we know the future if mind is not more than now?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hmmm...could you explain what that evidence is?

I see the best evidence is Gods Messengers, the ones that tell us they are of God and have a Message for us.

It's a tricky business though. If we quote one of them, Jesus the Christ, His message warns us to be aware of false prophets.

If we are just in our search, we will see they arethe first to live by the Message they gave. Again a tricky business. It is not something to take lightly, we must weigh all the given evidence with science and reason.

Regards Tony
 
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