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Morality Without The Bible and Homosexuality

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
In another thread, the topic of homosexuality is being discussed. In the condemnation of homosexuality, I satated:

Point to ponder.

I can explain why killing is wrong; and I don't have to use the bible to do it.
I can explain why stealing is wrong; and I don't have to use the bible to do it,
I can explain why most parents should be obeyed by their parents; and I don't have to use the bible to do it.
I can explain why falsely accusing someone is wrong; and I don't have to use the bible to do it.
I can explain why child molestation and sexual assault are wrong; and I don't have to use the bible to do it.
I can explain why polygamy is highly questionable and probably wrong; and I don't have to use the bible to do it
I can explain why fidelity and faithfulness are good virtues for couples to have; and I don't have to use the bible to do it.
I can explain why love, joy, hope, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness and self control are really great qualities to have; and I don't have to use the bible to do it.
I can explain why violence and cruelty to each other, ourselves or the other living creatures that share our planet is wrong; and I don't have to use the bible to do it.

But none of you can tell me why homosexuality is wrong without invoking your religion

Think about that.

To which, @InChrist stated:

I would ask you to explain your "whys" to all the points you made above without the Bible, but then again it would get off track from this thread. Maybe you'll start a thread on the subject sometime.

So, I will start this thread.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
In another thread, the topic of homosexuality is being discussed. In the condemnation of homosexuality, I satated:



To which, @InChrist stated:



So, I will start this thread.

Well. I don't really understand your post.

But I can clearly say that the Bible vehemently condemns homosexuality. Homosexuals are put together with drunkards, thieves, the effeminate or malakoi, all are condemned.
 

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
There are a lot of topics and I don't want to be here for an hour, so I will be brief.

I can explain why killing is wrong; and I don't have to use the bible to do it.

There are exceptions to "killing is wrong" as many will agree; but the bottom line is that killing others takes something from them that is not ours to take. It hurts people.

I can explain why stealing is wrong; and I don't have to use the bible to do it,

Stealing is wrong because it is ultimately dishonest and takes something from another that is not yours to take. It hurts people.

I can explain why most parents should be obeyed by their parents; and I don't have to use the bible to do it.

Children need guidance of those older and wiser. Children need adult supervision for their survival. Children need to be taught the rules of society so that they can exist within those rules and have a good life.

I can explain why falsely accusing someone is wrong; and I don't have to use the bible to do it.

Bearing false witness ruins another person's reputation and life. It hurts people.

I can explain why child molestation and sexual assault are wrong; and I don't have to use the bible to do it.

Sexual abuse is wrong because it hurts people.

I can explain why polygamy is highly questionable and probably wrong; and I don't have to use the bible to do it

Where polygamy is practiced, there is a direct correlation to misogyny and denial of women's rights. There seems to be a correlation here that is difficult to ignore. I value "informed consent" so it can be successfully argued that if all members were consensual to this arrangement, another has no right to tell them they can't live this way. I'd like to subscribe to that idea, but not until there is a way to unlink the link so explained.

I can explain why fidelity and faithfulness are good virtues for couples to have; and I don't have to use the bible to do it.

Fidelity and faithfulness builds trust and happy, healthy marriages. People in these arrangements tend to be happier.

I can explain why love, joy, hope, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness and self control are really great qualities to have; and I don't have to use the bible to do it.

IN short, if everyone pursued these values, the world would be a better place.

I can explain why violence and cruelty to each other, ourselves or the other living creatures that share our planet is wrong; and I don't have to use the bible to do it.

It hurts people and other living creatures.

I find it curious that the moral outrage against homosexuality can not be explained without invoking religion, yet so many still insist it is immoral.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The point is, why hold something as immoral and condemn a group of people when the only reason you have to do so is based on religious beliefs? To me, that is absurd.

Ah. I understand and I agree.

But you also should not negate something purely because a religion condemns it. everything that a religion condemns may not be a violation of human rights or something of the sort. Maybe it has a truth that you and I don't see.

Thats just a general comment.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
There are a lot of topics and I don't want to be here for an hour, so I will be brief.



There are exceptions to "killing is wrong" as many will agree; but the bottom line is that killing others takes something from them that is not ours to take. It hurts people.



Stealing is wrong because it is ultimately dishonest and takes something from another that is not yours to take. It hurts people.



Children need guidance of those older and wiser. Children need adult supervision for their survival. Children need to be taught the rules of society so that they can exist within those rules and have a good life.



Bearing false witness ruins another person's reputation and life. It hurts people.



Sexual abuse is wrong because it hurts people.



Where polygamy is practiced, there is a direct correlation to misogyny and denial of women's rights. There seems to be a correlation here that is difficult to ignore. I value "informed consent" so it can be successfully argued that if all members were consensual to this arrangement, another has no right to tell them they can't live this way. I'd like to subscribe to that idea, but not until there is a way to unlink the link so explained.



Fidelity and faithfulness builds trust and happy, healthy marriages. People in these arrangements tend to be happier.



IN short, if everyone pursued these values, the world would be a better place.



It hurts people and other living creatures.

I find it curious that the moral outrage against homosexuality can not be explained without invoking religion, yet so many still insist it is immoral.

The anticipated "response" here, is something like "...but why is it wrong to hurt people?"
That's usually the response I get from "divine command theory" proponents.


I tend to simply point out to them that if morality isn't about "rules of conduct" of which the purpose is to increase well-being and decrease avoidable suffering for all sentient beings, then I don't know what they mean when the talk about "morality".
The really stubborn then tend to come back with "but why is it important to increase well-being and avoid suffering"?

When you continue to zoom in on their underlying reasoning, it is revealed that in their view, if you remove their God of choice, what is left is nihilism where nothing has meaning, where nothing is of any value or worth and where nothing matters.

You can't argue with minds like that, which are pretty much indistinguishable from psychopathy / sociopathy.
They will not see the sense and reasonableness of your posts and arguments, because their idea of "moral behavior" comes down to mere obedience to a perceived authority in some kind of "might makes right" ideology.

Their foundation for moral reasoning is inherently bankrupt and/or corrupt. Unless they fix that, no sensible discussion on morals can be held with them.


(btw: I'm not accusing @InChrist is like that... we'll see how he responds)
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well. I don't really understand your post.

But I can clearly say that the Bible vehemently condemns homosexuality. Homosexuals are put together with drunkards, thieves, the effeminate or malakoi, all are condemned.
Yes but why, considering that given an omnipotent and omniscient god, the only way that homosexuality could exist is because that god willed it.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Yes but why, considering that given an omnipotent and omniscient god, the only way that homosexuality could exist is because that god willed it.

Maybe. Could be.

I don't disagree with homosexuality or its right to exist. You bark up the wrong tree.

My sentence is again "But you also should not negate something purely because a religion condemns it. everything that a religion condemns may not be a violation of human rights or something of the sort. Maybe it has a truth that you and I don't see. Thats just a general comment."

You misunderstood it by default.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Maybe. Could be.

I don't disagree with homosexuality or its right to exist. You bark up the wrong tree.

My sentence is again "But you also should not negate something purely because a religion condemns it. everything that a religion condemns may not be a violation of human rights or something of the sort. Maybe it has a truth that you and I don't see. Thats just a general comment."

You misunderstood it by default.
I wasn't accusing you of anything. I was taking what you said to make a point.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
It is aberration of natural laws.
Where are these "natural laws" written so that I can find this part where it states what is natural to occur between any given two human beings? Can you point me to these "laws" and the authority behind them? Seriously. How can I possibly know you are correct if these "laws" are not somehow documented somewhere and backed by authority of evidence or rational lines of thought?

And if you turn to something like "they are written on your heart," then I hope you don't mind laughter pointed directly at your face.
 
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leov

Well-Known Member
Where are these "natural laws" written so that I can find this part where is states what is natural to occur between any given two human beings? Can you point me to these "laws"? Seriously. How can I possibly know you are correct if these "laws" are not somehow documented somewhere?

And if you turn to something like "they are written on your heart," then I hope you don't mind laughter pointed directly at your face.
If you stop natural law procreation, what would happen to humanity? If you stop homosexual sex , what would happen to humanity?
 
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