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Proof that God isn't satan, or Lucifer.

D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
blü 2 said:
Really?

Satan appears in the Tanakh as a courtier at Yahweh's court, a rather disagreeable one but still on the team:
I Chronicles 21:1
Job 1 and 2 (14 times)
Zechariah 3:1-2 (3 times)
​
He doesn't get cast as the arch-villain till the NT:
Mark (5)
Matthew (3)
Luke (5)
John (1)
Acts (2)
Revelation (8)
Other (10)​

In none of those can he possibly be mistaken for God.

I suppose

1 Samuel 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.​

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.​

Amos 3:6: Is a trumpet blown in a city / and the people are not afraid? / Does evil befall a city / unless the LORD has done it?​

or

1 Kings 22:23 (repeated 2 Chronicles 18:22) Now, therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.”

Jeremiah 4:10 ... “Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem ...”

Jeremiah 20:7 O Lord, thou hast deceived me, / and I was deceived;

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet

2 Thessalonians 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false.​

might give some support for the claim.

So can the argument that since God is omnipotent and omniscient, everything, good or evil, can only happen because [he] wills it to.

But I've never heard anyone argue it before.
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I agree, directly it isn't a great argument.
 
crossfire

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Desert Snake said:
That seems very sketchy as a theory to relate to Ha'lal.

I would say it's religion and culture specific , even. Doesn't mean anything to me, for example.

And Ha'lal is an entity, or some believe just a description. Those concepts seem totally different.

However it's your theory, so fine.
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In Isaiah Helel was specifically being applied to a human, the King of Babylon, and he was reminded that he had to die, like all humans.
 
crossfire

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Desert Snake said:
I agree, directly it isn't a great argument.
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Well, if you are going to gain the knowledge of good and evil (eat of the tree in Eden,) you have to let evil in so you can know and understand it, otherwise you remain in ignorance.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
crossfire said:
In Isaiah Helel was specifically being applied to a human, the King of Babylon, and he was reminded that he had to die, like all humans.
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However 'Lucifer', is often considered.

I believe he, or someone like him, is real. So, that seems to be an interpretation.
 
crossfire

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Desert Snake said:
However 'Lucifer', is often considered.

I believe he, or someone like him, is real. So, that seems to be an interpretation.

However, yes, hmm.
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Well, that's your belief. How do you reconcile it with 2 Peter 1:19, where it speaks of the morning star (Greek phosphoros; Latin lucifer) rising in your heart?
 
J

JJ50

Well-Known Member
In all probability Satan and god don't exist, but if they do I doubt Satan could be any worse than the evil Biblical god.
 
Nimos

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Desert Snake said:
The Bible doesn't say it. Read the comments for examples.
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I have read the comments, besides "Blu2" which is the only one that have linked to verses that he think might vaguely support what you are saying. But you wrote the many propose that the bible say the God is satan, so I assume that there must be some verses to support it, yet I see none? So Im just interested in knowing who these "many" are and where in the bible they believe that it say that?
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Nimos said:
I have read the comments, besides "Blu2" which is the only one that have linked to verses that he think might vaguely support what you are saying. But you wrote the many propose that the bible say the God is satan, so I assume that there must be some verses to support it, yet I see none? So Im just interested in knowing who these "many" are and where in the bible they believe that it say that?
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They are arguments that tend to be presented in argument fashion, though there is a mistranslation also, so that is used. The premise is showing that there really isn't a "vagueness", about the names presented, God, lucifer, satan, and other names. So, we are really delineating directly, here, outside of belief or 'opinion'.

There's a difference, a vague argument, 'the actual persons are vague as presented', and something more along the lines of opinion. It's better to actually know that the main names are actually clearly differentiated.
Some titles are vague, we don't count those as pertaining to a certain argument either way.
 
crossfire

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Desert Snake said:
He seems to be talking about the sun, actually. I'm not reading that as anything except an analogy, either way.
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Ahh, so when Peter was talking about the Morning Star, it was an analogy, but when Isaiah was talking about it, it wasn't an analogy? Am I understanding you correctly?
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
crossfire said:
Ahh, so when Peter was talking about the Morning Star, it was an analogy, but when Isaiah was talking about it, it wasn't an analogy? Am I understanding you correctly?
Click to expand...
That verse seems to be referring to the sun, in the New Testament, however, yes. Even if the description were not literal, in Isaiah, there is a fallen angel, Called Lucifer. So, yes, the Bible is theistic, has a fallen angel named Lucifer, so forth.
 
crossfire

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Desert Snake said:
That verse seems to be referring to the sun, in the New Testament, however, yes. Even if the description were not literal, in Isaiah, there is a fallen angel, Called Lucifer. So, yes, the Bible is theistic, has a fallen angel named Lucifer, so forth.
Click to expand...
But Isaiah was talking about the King of Babylon, who was doomed to die like any other human. Was the King of Babylon a fallen angel? Or Helel ben Shahar, as the verse says.

Shahar (god) - Wikipedia
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
crossfire said:
But Isaiah was talking about the King of Babylon, who was doomed to die like any other human. Was the King of Babylon a fallen angel? Or Helel ben Shahar, as the verse says.

Shahar (god) - Wikipedia
Click to expand...
There is a context. There is a fallen angel, later called Lucifer, who is correlated to that name, as you even presented. In other words, we know the name because of the correlation. There's nothing odd about that, it occurs elsewhere in the Bible. So, you go by the religious ideas, not your interpretations, which are very theoretical, to say the least.
In other words, it doesn't matter who the verse in Isaiah is referring to, because that is a name correlation, to what they used later, 'Lucifer'.
In fact they even wrote Lucifer, so you know it's the same name. They literally are saying, with the translation, this means this.

And since there is a Lucifer, a being, in the Bible, then you know it's meant literally, a fallen angel.
 
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