Proof that God isn't satan, or Lucifer.

[Desert Snake]

Luciferians worship jesus, in other words.

 

[crossfire]

Luciferians worship jesus, in other words.

Luciferians generally don't worship.

 

[crossfire]

Luciferians worship jesus, in other words.

Luciferians generally don't worship.

To clarify: I'm referring to Luciferians who distinguish between YHWH, Lucifer, and Satan, as per your opening post. There certainly are those who don't distinguish between them whom I classify in categories other than Luciferianism, depending upon their beliefs and practices.

 

[Desert Snake]

To clarify: I'm referring to Luciferians who distinguish between YHWH, Lucifer, and Satan, as per your opening post. There certainly are those who don't distinguish between them whom I classify in categories other than Luciferianism, depending upon their beliefs and practices.

That's sort of a problem, though, as the premise demonstrates. In other words, although there can be peripheral word association, or even similarity, like Mithras, or such, to really make that argument, requires a lot to make less theoretical..
What does seem to help your argument, at least, is we have 'other ideas', that can be presented, to correlate the theory.

 

[Desert Snake]

In other words, both

Satan

And

Lucifer

Are bad in the new testament. So, if jesus is Lucifer, then why is lucifer bad, so forth.

Ha'lal being bad in both testaments.

 

[Desert Snake]

It's a type of contradiction, for theory that jesus is lucifer.

Ha'lal[lucifer
Satan

Both bad in old testament.

If jesus is lucifer, then Lucifer would not be bad, we wouldn't even expect a different being lucifer to be mentioned, much, less as bad.

 

[crossfire]

That's sort of a problrm, though, as the premise demonstrates. In other words, although there can be peripheral word association, or even similarity, like Mithras, or such, to really make that argument, requires a lot to make less theoretical..
What does seem to help your argument, at least, is we have 'other ideas', that can be presented, to correlate the theory.

Let's look at Jesus as a healer. He said that murder and adultery begin in the heart/mind. (Matthew 5) He also referred to hellfire in the same chapter, and that you "throw away" your "eye" or "hand" to avoid hellfire. This can be quite puzzling to those who are not aware of Buddha's Fire Sermon, where you grow disenchanted with visional and tactile sensory imput.

 

[Desert Snake]

Idea parallels, these are Beings.

 

[crossfire]

It's a type of contradiction, for theory that jesus is lucifer.

Ha'lal[lucifer
Satan

Both bad in old testament.

If jesus is lucifer, then Lucifer would not be bad, we wouldn't evrn expect a different being lucifer to be mentioned, much, less as bad.

Please note in revelation where the dragon tries to devour the child, and drags one third of the stars from heaven under his tail. The "bad" stars would refer to the ones under the influence of the dragon or devoured by the dragon. What about the other two thirds of the stars who have not been devoured by the dragon?

 

[crossfire]

Please note in revelation where the dragon tries to devour the child, and drags one third of the stars from heaven under his tail. The "bad" stars would refer to the ones under the influence of the dragon or devoured by the dragon. What about the other two thirds of the stars who have not been devoured by the dragon?

Gospel of Thomas:
7. Jesus said, "Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human."

1 Peter 5:8
8 Be serious! Be alert! Your adversary the Devil is prowling around like a roaring lion, looking for anyone he can devour.

 

[FooYang]

Let me tell you about the Morning Star in Buddhism: It means "medicine star."

Buddha became enlightened during the third watch of the night when he saw the Morning Star rise.
View attachment 32208

Yep, in pretty much every scripture I know, whether it calls it "the morning star" or "Lucifer", it's always referring to Venus and not some entity.

For this reason Luciferianism will always puzzle me because Lucifer is not even an archetype, at best you could use for Astrological purposes in Neopaganism but I can't see anything else there.

 

[FooYang]

As for "Satan", that's a contentious issue and I see most "Satanists" as bullshetters on this topic (so they must syncretize to justify themselves when they're not just trying to be edgy)

 

[crossfire]

Yep, in pretty much every scripture I know, whether it calls it "the morning star" or "Lucifer", it's always referring to Venus and not some entity.

For this reason Luciferianism will always puzzle me because Lucifer is not even an archetype, at best you could use for Astrological purposes in Neopaganism but I can't see anything else there.

It's the principle of awakening, bringing into consciousness unconscious content and understanding it. It rises before the day dawns--it facilitates understanding. Helel in Isaiah seemed to be one who had been devoured by the dragon/lion/devil/Shadow, and needed to be reminded that he would die, just like any other human.

 

[crossfire]

Yep, in pretty much every scripture I know, whether it calls it "the morning star" or "Lucifer", it's always referring to Venus and not some entity.

For this reason Luciferianism will always puzzle me because Lucifer is not even an archetype, at best you could use for Astrological purposes in Neopaganism but I can't see anything else there.

It's the principle of awakening, bringing into consciousness unconscious content and understanding it. It rises before the day dawns--it facilitates understanding. Helel in Isaiah seemed to be one who had been devoured by the dragon/lion/devil/Shadow, and needed to be reminded that he would die, just like any other human.

You can also research Bodhisattvas (unawakened buddhas/arhats) in this regard.

 

[FooYang]

You can also research Bodhisattvas (unawakened buddhas/arhats) in this regard.

Ah yes, I'm well acquainted with Mahayana and Vajrayana already, although this is not a comparison I've seen before.

 

[crossfire]

You can also research Bodhisattvas (unawakened buddhas/arhats) in this regard.

Ah yes, I'm well acquainted with Mahayana and Vajrayana already, although this is not a comparison I've seen before.

Who were the Magi from the East following the star looking for a reborn king?

 

[FooYang]

Who were the Magi from the East following the star looking for a reborn king?

The Three Magi? they were Mazdaens ("Zoroastrians"), from what I know. Were they following Venus, do you think?

 

[crossfire]

The Three Magi? they were Mazdaens ("Zoroastrians"), from what I know. Were they following Venus, do you think?

I dunno if it was Venus per se, but it is similar to some things Lamas do when looking for reborn bodhisattvas/Lamas.

 

[Desert Snake]

It's the principle of awakening, bringing into consciousness unconscious content and understanding it. It rises before the day dawns--it facilitates understanding. Helel in Isaiah seemed to be one who had been devoured by the dragon/lion/devil/Shadow, and needed to be reminded that he would die, just like any other human.

That seems very sketchy as a theory to relate to Ha'lal.

I would say it's religion and culture specific , even. Doesn't mean anything to me, for example.

And Ha'lal is an entity, or some believe just a description. Those concepts seem totally different.

However it's your theory, so fine.

 

[blü 2]

Many arguments propose that either the Bible directly says, or infers, that God, is actually satan, or lucifer.

Really?

Satan appears in the Tanakh as a courtier at Yahweh's court, a rather disagreeable one but still on the team:

I Chronicles 21:1
Job 1 and 2 (14 times)
Zechariah 3:1-2 (3 times)
​

He doesn't get cast as the arch-villain till the NT:

Mark (5)
Matthew (3)
Luke (5)
John (1)
Acts (2)
Revelation (8)
Other (10)​

In none of those can he possibly be mistaken for God.

I suppose

1 Samuel 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.​

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.​

Amos 3:6: Is a trumpet blown in a city / and the people are not afraid? / Does evil befall a city / unless the LORD has done it?​

or

1 Kings 22:23 (repeated 2 Chronicles 18:22) Now, therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.”

Jeremiah 4:10 ... “Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem ...”

Jeremiah 20:7 O Lord, thou hast deceived me, / and I was deceived;

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet

2 Thessalonians 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false.​

might give some support for the claim.

So can the argument that since God is omnipotent and omniscient, everything, good or evil, can only happen because [he] wills it to.

But I've never heard anyone argue it before.