Creation and Evolution Compatible...Questions

[Thermos aquaticus]

the empirical sort, direct repeatable testing, measurement, predictive ability even

What empirical observation, if made, would falsify your position?

And so if these idiosyncrasies are arbitrary, do nothing other than to make certain errors more or less likely for no particular reason- then we would expect to see them distributed in common ancestors- i.e. through the action of mere common descent as opposed to being actively present as the result of a specific intended function yes?

Transitions do not outnumber transversions for no particular reason. From the other thread:

First, let's look at the nucleotides themselves:

The four DNA nucleotides (G, C, A, and T) are pictured above, and you will notice that G and A are chemically similar (two rings) while C and T are chemically similar (single ring). Due to these chemical similarities it is easier for a G to be accidently changed out for an A when DNA is being copied, and the same for C and T. Again, this has to do with the basic chemical properties of the nucleotides. A mutation that switches out similar nucleotides is called a transition while a mutation that switches out dissimilar nucleotides is called a transversion.

That is a very particular reason. The chemical structure of the nucleotides makes some mutations more likely than others due to their similarities. A different mechanism applies to CpG mutations. Enzymes in the cell preferentially methylate the C of a CpG. The process of methylation makes the C very susceptible to mutation, and that mutation turns a C into a T. This is why CpG mutations occur at the highest rate, because of known natural processes in the cell.

We already discussed the 'inverted retina'- long assumed to be a similar inherited arbitrary design glitch, before we understood it's elegant and sophisticated purpose. And yes, we see the exact same thing here:

Then why don't squid have an inverted retina? Why does the direction of the retina follow the predicted evolutionary phylogenies if these species did not evolve from a common ancestor?

But the larger point is not simply that this is a brilliantly elegant and efficient design, it's that when you try to happen upon such systems by trial and error, you run out of nanoseconds the universe has existed, elementary particles, googolplexes, to attempt to quantify the number of random tries required to happen upon it by sheer fluke.

That's easily proven false. Each person is born with 50 to 100 mutations, so let's go with the lower number of 50. There are 3 billion bases in the haploid human genome. Therefore, it will take, on average, just 60 million births to mutate every base in the human genome. There are 3 possible changes at each base, so it will take 180 million births for there to be a specific mutation at every base in the human genome present in at least one human being. Do you think it will take eons for 180 million human births to occur?

Regarding design through random rolls of the die.. it' a nice simple, intuitive assumption to work from, but when the die keeps rolling six, at some point you have to acknowledge that it's loaded, whether we like the implications of that or not

You haven't shown that this is the case. Where is the evidence?

 

[Jose Fly]

I do not refute shared ancestry, nor does ID in general. I refute that all advances in biological design were created by random copying errors

Hmmmmm.......I wonder if our resident Jehovah's Witnesses who advocate ID creationism (@Deeje and @Hockeycowboy ) know this? Are they aware that according to what Guy posted above, they're merely advocating for a form of theistic evolution?

 

[ArtieE]

The key substantive, objective difference between creative intelligence and spontaneous/naturalistic mechanisms, is the capacity for anticipation of future consequences- and acting according to them, rather than being restrained by what past events demand

Without this, creative capacity is limited, no way around that

Why would you say the castaway existed in the first place? when there is no evidence other than the message he left on the beach?

power of explanation

And why would your god exist in the first place? Creative intelligence or spontaneous/naturalistic mechanisms?

 

[paarsurrey]

Creation and Evolution Compatible

G-d has created the things in the Universe under the process of evolution. Yes, in this sense both are compatible. please. Right, please?
Regards

 

[Guy Threepwood]

And why would your god exist in the first place? Creative intelligence or spontaneous/naturalistic mechanisms?

As above, how did the castaway get there? Good question, which does not change the evidence he left of his existence.

Having said that. it's difficult to explain anything being ultimately created without creativity, creative intelligence is no exception

 

[ArtieE]

As above, how did the castaway get there? Good question, which does not change the evidence he left of his existence.

Having said that. it's difficult to explain anything being ultimately created without creativity, creative intelligence is no exception

Don't theists claim that God's creative intelligence exists without having been created?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Don't theists claim that God's creative intelligence exists without having been created?

from our perspective yes, God is eternal, he created time as we know it, so is not restrained by the laws of his own creation.

 

[Audie]

from our perspective yes, God is eternal, he created time as we know it, so is not restrained by the laws of his own creation.

we know what you guys believe, but the q was not about
"time".

God's creative intelligence exists without having been created?

Oh, and how do you know that there is such a law as you refer to?

 

[ArtieE]

from our perspective yes, God is eternal, he created time as we know it, so is not restrained by the laws of his own creation.

Except it's obviously logically impossible for God to have created time as we know it. God couldn't have said to himself "I'll create time tomorrow but not today" since without time already existing there would be no today and tomorrow. You would never be able to go from a state where time doesn't exist to a state where time does exist.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Except it's obviously logically impossible for God to have created time as we know it. God couldn't have said to himself "I'll create time tomorrow but not today" since without time already existing there would be no today and tomorrow. You would never be able to go from a state where time doesn't exist to a state where time does exist.

Not at all, again it's a matter of perspective. By your rationale, it would be impossible for Tolkien to ever have decided to sit down and write the Hobbit, because Middle Earth didn't even exist yet!

i.e. time as we understand it is one of God's creations, he is not bound by the rules of his own creation!

 

[Audie]

Not at all, again it's a matter of perspective. By your rationale, it would be impossible for Tolkien to ever have decided to sit down and write the Hobbit, because Middle Earth didn't even exist yet!

i.e. time as we understand it is one of God's creations, he is not bound by the rules of his own creation!

Yet we hear from others that "god cannot lie".

Typical.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yet we hear from others that "god cannot lie".

Typical.

And now we have some believers that say that he could. This comes about when they realize that all of the evidence out there does support the theory of evolution. What they don't realize is that that totally takes away the reason to believe the claims of the Bible. Logical thought processes are not their forte.

 

[gnostic]

from our perspective yes, God is eternal, he created time as we know it, so is not restrained by the laws of his own creation.

Do you have evidences god creating anything?

You are making claim with nothing to back it up, except your personal belief.

Personal belief isn’t evidence, it is just your faith talking.

 

[tas8831]

Yes, obviously the fittest and most adaptable have the best chance to survive but when the fittest and most adaptable survive they merely breed pretty much the exact same species!
...
Consciousness plays a major role because it tends to drive fitness and adaptability. But more importantly consciousness drives BEHAVIOR and it is behavior that causes change in species. This seems counterintuitive but only because we don't see that most change in species is the result of near extinction events; population bottlenecks.

It is so awesome how you can be so darned confident in your assertions while simultaneously indicating quite clearly that you do not understand speciation takes place or what population bottlenecks are.

"Survival of the fittest" underlies the madness that was the 20th century. It underlies the concept of the "subconscious" and the horrors that devolve from this.

It is so awesome how you can be so darned confident in your assertions while simultaneously indicating quite clearly that you do not understand what "survival of the fittest" means in evolutionary biology.

"Evolution" simply doesn't exist as it is envisioned and every observation and logic confirms it. Species change but significant changes are largely the result of bottlenecks and consciousness or from mutation. The gradual changes that are interpreted from the fossil record simply is tertiary to virtually nonexistent in change in species.

So, in addition to being the world's greatest expert on Egyptology and 'Ancient Language', you are also the world's greatest expert on evolution and genetics.

In your fantasies, are you also handsome and macho?

 

[12jtartar]

Do you have evidences god creating anything?

You are making claim with nothing to back it up, except your personal belief.

Personal belief isn’t evidence, it is just your faith talking.

gnostic,
First, let’s look at what the Bible says about things made, Hebrews 3:4,5. Notice that every house is made by someone, but God made all things. Consider Hebrew 6:18, which says that God cannot lie.
Let me reason with you for a few seconds. Look at all the natural things around you. Which one of these things can man make???
There are several branches of science that study Nature, to try to reproduced in an inferior way, the things in nature, to help mankind.
If a man make something very unusual, called creating something, he is held up as great, but look at all the things that God Created, and you think they, Just Happened.
Just one thing to think about, why, and how could unknowing nature conceive an eye, when it knows NOTHING about sight. The same with the ear! Psalms 92:8,9.
The Bible even mentions people who question God, as you are, Psalms 10:4,10,13.
When The Almighty God said, who was with me, He was not saying, that No one was there, God was saying who could help God design things, who could Create anything?? God was alone in design of all Creation. He Almighty is some h greater that all living things, who could add to His Creations??
At Genesis, God said, Let US make man in our image, Genesis 1:26. We know that Jesus was the first of God’s Creations, because the Bible tells us that, Colossians 1:15. After God Created Jesus, Jesus was God’s helper in the making of all other things, Colossians 1:16. All things were made through him and for him, Hebrews 1:2,3, Revelation 3:14. The Bible seems to say that Jesus was God’s first Creation, and that Jesus was Master Worker, in the Creation of the earth, Proverbs 8:22-31.
A very compulsive proof of God is the Bible itself. Men who did not want to obey God have tried to destroy the Bible, some have tried to ruin the Bible by trying to translate it wrong. God has promised that He will not allow any generation to ruin His word. That means that anyone who truly wants to find truth will always be able to find truth, by comparing the same Scriptures in different Bibles, Psalms 12:6,7, John 17:17.
A real proof of God is; God had recorded, in His Bible, much information that no human knew, at the time of writing, Job 26:7,10, Isaiah 40:22, God told Moses, who wrote Job that the earth was hanged upon nothing, and was circular. Who knew??
Contained in the Mosaic Law Covenant, many things about eating foods, such as pork, many hygiene protections, that no one knew, but God.
Another point, God said that all living things would reproduce, only, After their own KIND, Genesis 1:11,12,21,22,24,25. In spite of man’s attempt to circumvent this LAW, trying both, In Vivo, and In Vitro, it cannot happen. This LAW, today, in Science, is called Prestabilism !!! Who but God, The Almighty Creator of all things, knew??? Agape!!!

 

[Audie]

gnostic,
First, let’s look at what the Bible says about things made, Hebrews 3:4,5. Notice that every house is made by someone, but God made all things. Consider Hebrew 6:18, which says that God cannot lie.
Let me reason with you for a few seconds. Look at all the natural things around you. Which one of these things can man make???
There are several branches of science that study Nature, to try to reproduced in an inferior way, the things in nature, to help mankind.
If a man make something very unusual, called creating something, he is held up as great, but look at all the things that God Created, and you think they, Just Happened.
Just one thing to think about, why, and how could unknowing nature conceive an eye, when it knows NOTHING about sight. The same with the ear! Psalms 92:8,9.
The Bible even mentions people who question God, as you are, Psalms 10:4,10,13.
When The Almighty God said, who was with me, He was not saying, that No one was there, God was saying who could help God design things, who could Create anything?? God was alone in design of all Creation. He Almighty is some h greater that all living things, who could add to His Creations??
At Genesis, God said, Let US make man in our image, Genesis 1:26. We know that Jesus was the first of God’s Creations, because the Bible tells us that, Colossians 1:15. After God Created Jesus, Jesus was God’s helper in the making of all other things, Colossians 1:16. All things were made through him and for him, Hebrews 1:2,3, Revelation 3:14. The Bible seems to say that Jesus was God’s first Creation, and that Jesus was Master Worker, in the Creation of the earth, Proverbs 8:22-31.
A very compulsive proof of God is the Bible itself. Men who did not want to obey God have tried to destroy the Bible, some have tried to ruin the Bible by trying to translate it wrong. God has promised that He will not allow any generation to ruin His word. That means that anyone who truly wants to find truth will always be able to find truth, by comparing the same Scriptures in different Bibles, Psalms 12:6,7, John 17:17.
A real proof of God is; God had recorded, in His Bible, much information that no human knew, at the time of writing, Job 26:7,10, Isaiah 40:22, God told Moses, who wrote Job that the earth was hanged upon nothing, and was circular. Who knew??
Contained in the Mosaic Law Covenant, many things about eating foods, such as pork, many hygiene protections, that no one knew, but God.
Another point, God said that all living things would reproduce, only, After their own KIND, Genesis 1:11,12,21,22,24,25. In spite of man’s attempt to circumvent this LAW, trying both, In Vivo, and In Vitro, it cannot happen. This LAW, today, in Science, is called Prestabilism !!! Who but God, The Almighty Creator of all things, knew??? Agape!!!

Ah, terrif! There is proof of god. No more need
for faith.
Do you also have proof of the flood?

 

[12jtartar]

And now we have some believers that say that he could. This comes about when they realize that all of the evidence out there does support the theory of evolution. What they don't realize is that that totally takes away the reason to believe the claims of the Bible. Logical thought processes are not their forte.

Subduction Zone,
Please show me, at least one thing that gives the slightest reason to believe in evolution. Several Molecular Scientists have changed their belief, from The Theory of Evolution to The Truth of Creation. When they realized what DNA was, along with RNA. All the plans for the growing of a new life, is actually written down in the DNA, and the RNA reads it and grows a new life. When these Scientists realized that all the plans for the growing of new life was actually down in writing, and that they could read the DNA and actually make changes in the DNA to correct some problem.
When they saw that, the Knew that there IS an Allknowing God.
Some Scientists say that all the evidence that has ever been found that points toward evolution, could, easily be stored in a match box.
Did you know that Darwin actually said; if Archeology did not show different evidences of changing to higher forms of life, in the bones of excavated animals, then evolution was not true. The evidence has not been found. Never, has an animal been found that had evidence of evolving into a higher Kind. Think about that; if all things were changing, and over a period of millions of years, there would be NO distinct Kinds, but all would be mixtures, so that there would be a question as to which Kind they were. Never has that happened.
One thing that few know and understand. The Almighty God Created all living things to reproduce, ONLY after their own KIND. Genesis 1:11,12, for vegetation, and Genesis 1:21,23,24,25
Science today call this LAW, Prestabilism, and in spite of trying for many, many years, in both In Vivo, and In Vitro, they find that God’s Law is impossible to thwart. Would it not be extremely bad, if you planted a crop and you really did not know what would grow out of the ground?? What if you planted wheat seed, and Redwoods grew on your field. God does not play tricks on man!!!
Agape!!!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Subduction Zone,
Please show me, at least one thing that gives the slightest reason to believe in evolution. Several Molecular Scientists have changed their belief, from The Theory of Evolution to The Truth of Creation. When they realized what DNA was, along with RNA. All the plans for the growing of a new life, is actually written down in the DNA, and the RNA reads it and grows a new life. When these Scientists realized that all the plans for the growing of new life was actually down in writing, and that they could read the DNA and actually make changes in the DNA to correct some problem.
When they saw that, the Knew that there IS an Allknowing God.
Some Scientists say that all the evidence that has ever been found that points toward evolution, could, easily be stored in a match box.
Did you know that Darwin actually said; if Archeology did not show different evidences of changing to higher forms of life, in the bones of excavated animals, then evolution was not true. The evidence has not been found. Never, has an animal been found that had evidence of evolving into a higher Kind. Think about that; if all things were changing, and over a period of millions of years, there would be NO distinct Kinds, but all would be mixtures, so that there would be a question as to which Kind they were. Never has that happened.
One thing that few know and understand. The Almighty God Created all living things to reproduce, ONLY after their own KIND. Genesis 1:11,12, for vegetation, and Genesis 1:21,23,24,25
Science today call this LAW, Prestabilism, and in spite of trying for many, many years, in both In Vivo, and In Vitro, they find that God’s Law is impossible to thwart. Would it not be extremely bad, if you planted a crop and you really did not know what would grow out of the ground?? What if you planted wheat seed, and Redwoods grew on your field. God does not play tricks on man!!!
Agape!!!

You would have to learn the basics of science first. I can count the number of serious scientists that "changed their mind" about the theory of evolution on the fingers of one hand. Appealing to the incompetent does not help your arguments.

If you wish to learn the basics of the scientific method and scientific evidence then we can go over why we know that your beliefs are mythical.

By the way, Darwin never made the claim that you said that he did. He was not an idiot.

Also you are claiming that your God is a liar. You do not realize it, but you in fact also said that evolution is a fact supported by your God. Do you want to see the quote:

"God does not play tricks on man!!!"

That is a claim for evolution, not against it.

 

[Audie]

Subduction Zone,
Please show me, at least one thing that gives the slightest reason to believe in evolution. Several Molecular Scientists have changed their belief, from The Theory of Evolution to The Truth of Creation. When they realized what DNA was, along with RNA. All the plans for the growing of a new life, is actually written down in the DNA, and the RNA reads it and grows a new life. When these Scientists realized that all the plans for the growing of new life was actually down in writing, and that they could read the DNA and actually make changes in the DNA to correct some problem.
When they saw that, the Knew that there IS an Allknowing God.
Some Scientists say that all the evidence that has ever been found that points toward evolution, could, easily be stored in a match box.
Did you know that Darwin actually said; if Archeology did not show different evidences of changing to higher forms of life, in the bones of excavated animals, then evolution was not true. The evidence has not been found. Never, has an animal been found that had evidence of evolving into a higher Kind. Think about that; if all things were changing, and over a period of millions of years, there would be NO distinct Kinds, but all would be mixtures, so that there would be a question as to which Kind they were. Never has that happened.
One thing that few know and understand. The Almighty God Created all living things to reproduce, ONLY after their own KIND. Genesis 1:11,12, for vegetation, and Genesis 1:21,23,24,25
Science today call this LAW, Prestabilism, and in spite of trying for many, many years, in both In Vivo, and In Vitro, they find that God’s Law is impossible to thwart. Would it not be extremely bad, if you planted a crop and you really did not know what would grow out of the ground?? What if you planted wheat seed, and Redwoods grew on your field. God does not play tricks on man!!!
Agape!!!

Someone sure played a trick on you.

.

 

[Audie]

You would have to learn the basics of science first. I can count the number of serious scientists that "changed their mind" about the theory of evolution on the fingers of one hand. Appealing to the incompetent does not help your arguments.

If you wish to learn the basics of the scientific method and scientific evidence then we can go over why we know that your beliefs are mythical.

By the way, Darwin never made the claim that you said that he did. He was not an idiot.

Also you are claiming that your God is a liar. You do not realize it, but you in fact also said that evolution is a fact supported by your God. Do you want to see the quote:

"God does not play tricks on man!!!"

That is a claim for evolution, not against it.

Science today call this LAW, Prestabilism,

Did you look up this term? And he thinks it
is a "law"of science?

I will let you attempt the education. You have
a lot lot lot of work to do, while urinatin' at the wind.