The Westernization of Iraq

[Dan From Smithville]

Have you ever been to Baghdad? I doubt that they will lose their culture over Western music or blue jeans. Before Bush invaded there were 50 Christian churches just in Baghdad.

The dominant religions of the world that are practiced by large segments of European and North American cultures did not develop in those locations, but were cultural imports from their points of origin in Asia and the Middle East.

Despite this, all those nations still have independent and identifiable cultures. In some cases, there are multiple cultures under one roof.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It is not only that, partying, Alcohol (in huge amount) music that is not from middle east, different clothes, a lot of this come from America

But isn't that just people doing what they wish? Are you of the opinion that people should be forced to behave in certain ways, like not partying, drinking alcohol, what music they might choose to listen to, how they might like to dress? What kinds of "liberty" do you think are appropriate, and which sorts do you think must be curtailed?

 

[shmogie]

If anything, this is starting to get back to normalcy for the country. For all of Saddam's crimes, he allowed some measure of freedom of artistic and religious expression.

I once believed that our form of government would be amazing progress for Iraq, and that the people there deserved the opportunity. Thus I supported the invasion.

Now I realize that a tribal stone age people are incapable of the sophistication self government requires.

They deserved saddam, and he they.

There is no Muslim nation that is worth the death of one American soldier ( except for, perhaps, the Kurdish people). Let them have the totalitarian governments their religion makes them crave.

Some day they may stumble into the 20th century.

 

[Stanyon]

You must mean the Bush administration. Didn't they take over Iraq, at gunpoint, a few years back?
Tom

Iraq did invade Kuwait in a brutal occupation in the early 90s so I guess that would qualify as karma.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I never said music or motorcycles are evil. It's what they represent that's evil, namely the cultural shift, the coerced shift from traditional culture to Western, consumerist, quantity-based culture. Traditional cultures that allow Westernization will always regret it. Case in point: Iran. It's always cultures who have never experienced Westernization who beg for it the most.

How, exactly, do you see this as "coerced?" Who is being forced to own a motorcycle, or listen to western music? I ignore a lot of the culture around me, simply because I'm not interested. When you are at liberty to choose for yourself, you can do just that -- choose for yourself.

 

[sooda]

I once believed that our form of government would be amazing progress for Iraq, and that the people there deserved the opportunity. Thus I supported the invasion.

Now I realize that a tribal stone age people are incapable of the sophistication self government requires.

They deserved saddam, and he they.

There is no Muslim nation that is worth the death of one American soldier ( except for, perhaps, the Kurdish people). Let them have the totalitarian governments their religion makes them crave.

Some day they may stumble into the 20th century.

You supported the invasion of Iraq?

Have you ever been to Iraq?

 

[sooda]

Iraq did invade Kuwait in a brutal occupation in the early 90s so I guess that would qualify as karma.

Do you know why?

 

[Cooky]

Do you know why?

Cause' Kuwait had it comin'?

 

[columbus]

Iraq did invade Kuwait in a brutal occupation in the early 90s so I guess that would qualify as karma.

Unless Hussein invaded Kuwait because Bush gave him the go ahead.

That makes more sense than Hussein forgetting about the U.S., or believing Iraq could take us on.
Tom

 

[sooda]

Cause' Kuwait had it comin'?

Kuwait was stealing Iraqi oil. In addition to that. Kuwait and KSA had pumped Iraq's OPEC quota during the Iraq-Iran war. KSA had forgiven Iraq's debt. Kuwait refused.

Cheney had to lie to King Fahd ...

1. Oral History - Richard Cheney | The Gulf War | FRONTLINE | PBS
   https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/oral/cheney/1.html
   Cheney: When King Fahd said that he was prepared to accept our proposition, I was pleased, obviously. That was something that was very important to achieve but, secondly, I also had a sense that this particular decision then triggered a whole sequence of pretty momentous events.
   
   
2. The Elder Bush Also Lied Us into a War • kimbroadie
   The Elder Bush Also Lied Us into a War • kimbroadielied-us-into-a-war
   Dec 05, 2018 · This lie was exposed after the US attacked Iraq. Cheney, Powell, and company then met with King Fahd of Saudi Arabia. Their mission: to persuade him to allow the US military to plop themselves on Saudi soil. They showed the King doctored photographs of Saddam massing troops on the Saudi border, ready to invade. The King agreed.
   

 

[sooda]

Unless Hussein invaded Kuwait because Bush gave him the go ahead.

That makes more sense than Hussein forgetting about the U.S., or believing Iraq could take us on.
Tom

See the dirty tricks by the Bushes above.

 

[Cooky]

See the dirty tricks by the Bushes above.

Okay, okay, Sooda... We're wandering again.

 

[sooda]

Okay, okay, Sooda... We're wandering again.

You know we have a poster claiming the Iraqis are subhuman barbarians.. stone age barbarians..

Yet.. the US did this.

1. Oral History - Richard Cheney | The Gulf War | FRONTLINE | PBS
   https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/oral/cheney/1.html
   Cheney: When King Fahd said that he was prepared to accept our proposition, I was pleased, obviously. That was something that was very important to achieve but, secondly, I also had a sense that this particular decision then triggered a whole sequence of pretty momentous events.
   
   
2. The Elder Bush Also Lied Us into a War • kimbroadie
   The Elder Bush Also Lied Us into a War • kimbroadielied-us-into-a-war
   Dec 05, 2018 · This lie was exposed after the US attacked Iraq. Cheney, Powell, and company then met with King Fahd of Saudi Arabia. Their mission: to persuade him to allow the US military to plop themselves on Saudi soil. They showed the King doctored photographs of Saddam massing troops on the Saudi border, ready to invade. The King agreed.
   

 

[shmogie]

You supported the invasion of Iraq?

Have you ever been to Iraq?

Yes and no

 

[Spirit of Light]

But isn't that just people doing what they wish? Are you of the opinion that people should be forced to behave in certain ways, like not partying, drinking alcohol, what music they might choose to listen to, how they might like to dress? What kinds of "liberty" do you think are appropriate, and which sorts do you think must be curtailed?

In my view the culture of middle east is a rich culture of food, songs, dance, story telling and so on. The culture that arise there now is headlesness and damaging. Hope this answer is clear enough. Culture from America or Europe belong in America or Europe. No need to spread it.

 

[sooda]

Yes and no

I have been to Iraq many times. The war on Iraq was a predictable disaster that would leave Iran ascendant. I resigned the Republican party just before the invasion. Too many Americans were moved by the PNAC claims and their own ignorance of the Middle East.

Of course now they are all experts on the ME and the oil business. (LOLOLOL)

In the UK they began selling the war on Iraq in 1998.. It was called Operation Mass Appeal. Think about that.

1. Oral History - Richard Cheney | The Gulf War | FRONTLINE | PBS
   https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/oral/cheney/1.html
   Cheney: When King Fahd said that he was prepared to accept our proposition, I was pleased, obviously. That was something that was very important to achieve but, secondly, I also had a sense that this particular decision then triggered a whole sequence of pretty momentous events.
   
   
2. The Elder Bush Also Lied Us into a War • kimbroadie
   The Elder Bush Also Lied Us into a War • kimbroadielied-us-into-a-war
   Dec 05, 2018 · This lie was exposed after the US attacked Iraq. Cheney, Powell, and company then met with King Fahd of Saudi Arabia. Their mission: to persuade him to allow the US military to plop themselves on Saudi soil. They showed the King doctored photographs of Saddam massing troops on the Saudi border, ready to invade. The King agreed.
   

 

[Shad]

It is sad to see that the West (USA) made Iraq into a western country with the filth from Western culture instead of the local culture. why must West force other part of the world to be "more like Us" ???

The US didn't force those Iraqis to go clubbing. The straight jacket of Saddam was removed so now people are enjoying more freedom to do things they want to do. Someone started a business. People became patrons of that business by choice. That is the individuals choices not the US's.

 

[shmogie]

The first gulf war was based upon the invasion of Kuwait. Saddam could have avoided it by withdrawal, he did not.

The Second gulf war was based upon saddams first nuclear weapon research facility.

There was no peace treaty in place between Iraq and the allies from the first war. There was a truce in the fighting.

This truce was based upon specific terms that Iraq agreed to follow. The war was not over, it was paused based upon Iraq´s compliance with the terms imposed upon it.

The terms related to this facility were that it be covered inside by monitored CCTV cameraś , a variety of sensing devices, and be subject to immediate spot inspection by UN inspectors.

Saddam arbitrarily decided to stop complying with the terms of the cease fire. He removed all of the cameras and other devices, and refused to allow the required UN inspections.

22 resolutions were passed by the UN for the required inspections, saddam ignored every one. He was repeatedly warned as to what would happen with his continued refusal, he still refused.

We now know the whole thing was a calculated bluff because saddam was terrified of an invasion by Iran, as he had invaded them.

He felt that if he acted like he had an active nuclear program, Iran would be deterred.

He was given a final ultimatum. He could have prevented the invasion by simply doing what he had agreed to do, he did not.

One of the Pentagons primary tasks is to develop war plans. These exist, and are continuously revised, for any country that has a significant population or military.

Those countries that are hostile have plans that are constantly reviewed.

So, all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about conspiracies because this planning occurred before the war is nonsense, the Pentagon was simply doing it´s job.

In those days I was a Conservative who believed that having the opportunity to vote and choose their own leadership was a goal worth the pain for Iraq and us. I believed freedom and liberty were desired by all people, and all people would naturally choose them.

After Iraq my thinking is totally changed. People get the government they deserve. It is none of our business. As I have said, Iraq is not worth the death of one American soldier.

Our country began by the people forcefully ejecting a government of tyranny.

The People of Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, any of the nations in the area can do the same.

Only when OUR national interest requires it, should there be intervention of any kind.

I believe that Islamic societies are by nature hostile to liberty and freedom. They require all power to be held by by one person. As the saying goes, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Turkey under Mustafa Kemal had a secular military and government that was fairly representative of the people.

That is gone now. The military has been purged, now it is a loyal islamist group completely under the thumb of the president. Kemals reforms are just a memory, and the president is grabbing more and more power, on his way to becoming a dictator.

The islamic model asserts itself once again.

I mourn the total waste of American lives and treasure expended in trying to give Iraq what they didn´t want, did not understand, and had no interest in anything but the tribal system.

Liberty and freedom is not what the Islamic people in Islamic countries want.

We should leave them to their apparent choice.


[/QUOTE]

 

[sooda]

The first gulf war was based upon the invasion of Kuwait. Saddam could have avoided it by withdrawal, he did not.

The Second gulf war was based upon saddams first nuclear weapon research facility.

There was no peace treaty in place between Iraq and the allies from the first war. There was a truce in the fighting.

This truce was based upon specific terms that Iraq agreed to follow. The war was not over, it was paused based upon Iraq´s compliance with the terms imposed upon it.

The terms related to this facility were that it be covered inside by monitored CCTV cameraś , a variety of sensing devices, and be subject to immediate spot inspection by UN inspectors.

Saddam arbitrarily decided to stop complying with the terms of the cease fire. He removed all of the cameras and other devices, and refused to allow the required UN inspections.

22 resolutions were passed by the UN for the required inspections, saddam ignored every one. He was repeatedly warned as to what would happen with his continued refusal, he still refused.

We now know the whole thing was a calculated bluff because saddam was terrified of an invasion by Iran, as he had invaded them.

He felt that if he acted like he had an active nuclear program, Iran would be deterred.

He was given a final ultimatum. He could have prevented the invasion by simply doing what he had agreed to do, he did not.

One of the Pentagons primary tasks is to develop war plans. These exist, and are continuously revised, for any country that has a significant population or military.

Those countries that are hostile have plans that are constantly reviewed.

So, all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about conspiracies because this planning occurred before the war is nonsense, the Pentagon was simply doing it´s job.

In those days I was a Conservative who believed that having the opportunity to vote and choose their own leadership was a goal worth the pain for Iraq and us. I believed freedom and liberty were desired by all people, and all people would naturally choose them.

After Iraq my thinking is totally changed. People get the government they deserve. It is none of our business. As I have said, Iraq is not worth the death of one American soldier.

Our country began by the people forcefully ejecting a government of tyranny.

The People of Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, any of the nations in the area can do the same.

Only when OUR national interest requires it, should there be intervention of any kind.

I believe that Islamic societies are by nature hostile to liberty and freedom. They require all power to be held by by one person. As the saying goes, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Turkey under Mustafa Kemal had a secular military and government that was fairly representative of the people.

That is gone now. The military has been purged, now it is a loyal islamist group completely under the thumb of the president. Kemals reforms are just a memory, and the president is grabbing more and more power, on his way to becoming a dictator.

The islamic model asserts itself once again.

I mourn the total waste of American lives and treasure expended in trying to give Iraq what they didn´t want, did not understand, and had no interest in anything but the tribal system.

Liberty and freedom is not what the Islamic people in Islamic countries want.

We should leave them to their apparent choice.

[/QUOTE]

Why would you believe anything about them if you had never lived with them?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

In my view the culture of middle east is a rich culture of food, songs, dance, story telling and so on. The culture that arise there now is headlesness and damaging. Hope this answer is clear enough. Culture from America or Europe belong in America or Europe. No need to spread it.

But the question is this: is anyone forcing other cultural influences upon Iraqis, or are they choosing to absorb what they wish on their own? Human cultures have been changing in this way throughout our entire history. Nothing stays the same forever, no matter how frightened we are of change.