The Slow Death Of Christianity In The United States

[PruePhillip]

Cyrus was an anointed warrior king who rescued the Jews from Babylon.

Ahhhh... so you think Cyrus was the Messiah? But the Messiah has to be Jewish, rejected even of his own
family and nation, to establish a pattern of living for the people and to die on the cross.

 

[PruePhillip]

That's hardly future prediction. Israel has perennially been the victim and in exile.

True. But the second exile (now coming to a close) was fundamentally Different to
the kind of exile many nations suffered under various empires. For a people to come
together in their ancient world, to take it back with the sword, to resurrect their old
language after 2,000 years is incredible. The Jews should be extinct by now, like all
the other old nations. And the persecution of the Jew is like no other group.

 

[sojourner]

True. "Xy" involves an intensity of brotherhood, social responsibility and the like.
But the experience of knowing God is a private one. One of the tragedies of our
modern age is the growing tribalism and corporate thinking. Nothing seems to
be of a private concern anymore.

Not according to biblical example. Salvation is for the world, not individuals. The ancient, mid-Eastern mind set was highly communal.

One of the crises of our time is a crisis of individualism, at least according to Jerry Doherty, an Episcopal priest and author. I believe him.

 

[sojourner]

You have to be specific, sorry. Not sure what is "broken" other than variegated thoughts.

Your information regarding textual origins and dates is way off. It skews your argument.

 

[sojourner]

True. But the second exile (now coming to a close) was fundamentally Different to
the kind of exile many nations suffered under various empires. For a people to come
together in their ancient world, to take it back with the sword, to resurrect their old
language after 2,000 years is incredible. The Jews should be extinct by now, like all
the other old nations. And the persecution of the Jew is like no other group.

That's true, however, my point still stands: a "prediction" of Israel's exile is hardly either surprising or miraculous. It's expected. Regardless of the circumstances.

 

[PruePhillip]

Your information regarding textual origins and dates is way off. It skews your argument.

Oh okay, thanks for being specific.

 

[PruePhillip]

Not according to biblical example. Salvation is for the world, not individuals. The ancient, mid-Eastern mind set was highly communal.

One of the crises of our time is a crisis of individualism, at least according to Jerry Doherty, an Episcopal priest and author. I believe him.

The loss of a sense of responsibility is a hallmark of our society.
Where the individual comes to the fore is in self absorption and
narcissism.
The Gospel speaks of humanity, society and the church, but its
message is, ultimately, about the person.

There are, for example, people who virtue signal because their
church does certain social deeds. But what does that say about
themselves as individuals?

 

[sooda]

Ahhhh... so you think Cyrus was the Messiah? But the Messiah has to be Jewish, rejected even of his own
family and nation, to establish a pattern of living for the people and to die on the cross.

The Jews thought Cyrus was a messiah.

You don't have much education, do you?

Cyrus the “Messiah” | William Struse
www.the13thenumeration.com/Blog13/2016/08/18/cyrus-the-messiah
Aug 18, 2016 · Cyrus is the only secular ruler in the Bible to be called YHWH’s “anointed” or messiah (Isaiah 45:1). Cyrus’s decree allowing the Jewish people to return and build Jerusalem and the temple ended the 70 years of Babylonian captivity.

Cyrus the Messiah - bibleodyssey.org
People Related Articlescyrus-the-messiah.aspx
The Persian emperor Cyrus is the only foreigner in the Bible to be identified as the messiah or anointed one of Yahweh, the Israelite God. Isaiah tells us that Yahweh spoke “to his messiah, to Cyrus, whom I [Yahweh] took by his right hand to subdue nations before him” ( Isa 45:1 ).

 

[PruePhillip]

The Jews thought Cyrus was a messiah.

You don't have much education, do you?
.

You know, "some Jews" thought all kinds of people were Messiahs.
A "lot of Jews" rejected Jesus' Messianic claim, even, as David put
it, his brothers and sisters.
Usually the people "some" Jews thought of as Messiahs were
world loving, charismatic and political figures. Why? Because
these Jews were themselves world loving people and wanted a
world reigning King.
This is why Jesus says in Luke 19, "... tear you down to the ground,
you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone
upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your
visitation.”

So much for this theory of the "God of the Old Testament" huh?

But Zechariah, for one, shows how this same lowly savor, the one
riding upon a donkey, his hands and his feet pierced, would one
day be the reigning King of all the world. The Messiah most Jews
wanted all along.

 

[sojourner]

The loss of a sense of responsibility is a hallmark of our society.
Where the individual comes to the fore is in self absorption and
narcissism.
The Gospel speaks of humanity, society and the church, but its
message is, ultimately, about the person.

There are, for example, people who virtue signal because their
church does certain social deeds. But what does that say about
themselves as individuals?

I agree with your first paragraph wholeheartedly. Your second paragraph is, I think, a misapprehension that most Westerners embrace. The ancient, Judaic mind simply didn’t think in terms of the individual. Jesus said we are children of God, not each one of us is a child of God. He said he came for the lost sheep of Israel, not for each individual sheep. It’s a tough concept to grasp, because we’re so ingrained in the individual.

 

[sooda]

You know, "some Jews" thought all kinds of people were Messiahs.
A "lot of Jews" rejected Jesus' Messianic claim, even, as David put
it, his brothers and sisters.
Usually the people "some" Jews thought of as Messiahs were
world loving, charismatic and political figures. Why? Because
these Jews were themselves world loving people and wanted a
world reigning King.
This is why Jesus says in Luke 19, "... tear you down to the ground,
you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone
upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your
visitation.”

So much for this theory of the "God of the Old Testament" huh?

But Zechariah, for one, shows how this same lowly savor, the one
riding upon a donkey, his hands and his feet pierced, would one
day be the reigning King of all the world. The Messiah most Jews
wanted all along.

You do know that all Jews rode donkeys, don't you?

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your King comes to you, righteous and victorious, humble and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Zechariah is specific about dating his writing (520–518 BC).

When Cyrus the Great overtook the Babylonians in 539 BC. In 538 BC, the famous Edict of Cyrus was released, and the first return took place under Sheshbazzar.

 

[PruePhillip]

I agree with your first paragraph wholeheartedly. Your second paragraph is, I think, a misapprehension that most Westerners embrace. The ancient, Judaic mind simply didn’t think in terms of the individual. Jesus said we are children of God, not each one of us is a child of God. He said he came for the lost sheep of Israel, not for each individual sheep. It’s a tough concept to grasp, because we’re so ingrained in the individual.

Agreed. But the bible speaks to the individual within a society. Each person has their own
row to hoe. And of course, the bible speaks of the nation of Israel and the people of God.
What is evaporating in Western societies is individual responsibility - what is growing is
self importance.

 

[PruePhillip]

You do know that all Jews rode donkeys, don't you?

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your King comes to you, righteous and victorious, humble and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Zechariah is specific about dating his writing (520–518 BC).

When Cyrus the Great overtook the Babylonians in 539 BC. In 538 BC, the famous Edict of Cyrus was released, and the first return took place under Sheshbazzar.

So Cyrus rode around on a donkey? What about Nero? Herod?
Was Daniel specific about the time of his writing?
Doesn't that surprise you that here Zechariah is speaking of
TWO Messiahs? King and Redeemer.

 

[sooda]

So Cyrus rode around on a donkey? What about Nero? Herod?
Was Daniel specific about the time of his writing?
Doesn't that surprise you that here Zechariah is speaking of
TWO Messiahs? King and Redeemer.

There were very few horses in Palestine because they had little pasture. Even the armies traveled on foot. Roman officers may have had horses.

Lowly and Riding on a Donkey? - cgg.org
https://www.cgg.org/.../fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/PW/k/1660/Lowly-Riding-on-Donkey.htm
Jacob’s sons rode donkeys. In the book of Judges, judges rode on donkeys as well. David was a king, perhaps the greatest in Israel’s history, and he rode a donkey. Sons of kings rode donkeys. It is a traditional belief that Joseph, husband of Mary, had a donkey, and Mary rode it to Bethlehem while she was pregnant with Jesus.

King Cyrus the Great was a non-Jewish Messiah. After all, the first restoration of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel occurred with the support of Cyrus the Great, king of Persia, who was addressed by the Prophet Isaiah as a Messiah; “Thus says the Lord to his anointed (Messiah), to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped,...
King Cyrus the Great was a non-Jewish Messiah
blogs.timesofisrael.com/king-cyrus-the-great-was-a-non-jewish-messiah/

 

[sooda]

Jewish messiah claimants

• Simon of Peraea (ca. 4 BC), a former slave of Herod the Great who rebelled and was killed by...
• Athronges (ca. 3 BC), a shepherd turned rebel leader.
• Judas of Galilee (?), son of Hezekiah/Ezekias, a member of the Zealots faction who led...
• Jesus of Nazareth (ca. 4 BC — AD 30-?), a wandering prophet and teacher who was crucified by...

List of messiahs : Wikis (The Full Wiki)
www.thefullwiki.org/List_of_messiahs

 

[sojourner]

Agreed. But the bible speaks to the individual within a society. Each person has their own
row to hoe. And of course, the bible speaks of the nation of Israel and the people of God.
What is evaporating in Western societies is individual responsibility - what is growing is
self importance.

Yes, each has her row to hoe, for the good of the community, not for his own self preservation. Your last sentence acknowledges that.

 

[usfan]

.
And why might it be happening?

Simple..

Indoctrination. Plain old religious indoctrination, from the Official State Religion of Progressivism, that exclusively pounds their religious dogma into hapless pupils for their entire lives.. no exceptions.

They pound the atheistic naturalism belief of common descent, godlessness, moral relativity, constant attacks toward their hated ideological enemies (Christianity), AND the propagandists keep it up for their entire lives of the target dupes.

It is no surprise that so many are deluded by lies and phony narratives about Christianity, given the non stop propaganda they have endured.

 

[PruePhillip]

Yes, each has her row to hoe, for the good of the community, not for his own self preservation. Your last sentence acknowledges that.

In Judaeo Christianity there is the notion of relationship with God,
and of Judgment and Salvation. Israel was blessed or punished
as a matter of historic record - but there remains the deeper
purpose of our personal lives.

 

[PruePhillip]

There were very few horses in Palestine because they had little pasture. Even the armies traveled on foot. Roman officers may have had horses.

Lowly and Riding on a Donkey? - cgg.org
https://www.cgg.org/.../fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/PW/k/1660/Lowly-Riding-on-Donkey.htm
Jacob’s sons rode donkeys. In the book of Judges, judges rode on donkeys as well. David was a king, perhaps the greatest in Israel’s history, and he rode a donkey. Sons of kings rode donkeys. It is a traditional belief that Joseph, husband of Mary, had a donkey, and Mary rode it to Bethlehem while she was pregnant with Jesus.

King Cyrus the Great was a non-Jewish Messiah. After all, the first restoration of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel occurred with the support of Cyrus the Great, king of Persia, who was addressed by the Prophet Isaiah as a Messiah; “Thus says the Lord to his anointed (Messiah), to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped,...
King Cyrus the Great was a non-Jewish Messiah
blogs.timesofisrael.com/king-cyrus-the-great-was-a-non-jewish-messiah/

Your reply was well done. But take into consideration that is was NOTED THAT THE MESSIAH
RODE A DONKEY AS IF TO SAY THAT IS OF SIGNIFICANCE. I put it to you that many Jewish
messiahs were imagined as coming on white stallions - horses were war animals and banned
to the Jews in Greek and Roman times - maybe even Babylonian Assyrian ones too - just don't
know. But the CONTEXT IS ONE OF HUMILITY.
You can be "anointed" but there's nuance to the point - anointed into what? Jesus was anointed
as the Son of God, not as an earthly ruler.

 

[sooda]

Your reply was well done. But take into consideration that is was NOTED THAT THE MESSIAH
RODE A DONKEY AS IF TO SAY THAT IS OF SIGNIFICANCE. I put it to you that many Jewish
messiahs were imagined as coming on white stallions - horses were war animals and banned
to the Jews in Greek and Roman times - maybe even Babylonian Assyrian ones too - just don't
know. But the CONTEXT IS ONE OF HUMILITY.
You can be "anointed" but there's nuance to the point - anointed into what? Jesus was anointed
as the Son of God, not as an earthly ruler.

Archaeologists have found no evidence for horses in ancient Palestine.

Anointing was done with olive oil.

Jesus was NOT a warrior king and he didn't vanquish the Romans.