• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Where does the NWT Bible Falsify?

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
No, I'm not buying that.



In his glory.


Jesus was God before his incarnation (John 1).



False. Jesus and the Father are both God. Neither one is in place of the other.



Jesus is Jehovah.



Please save your JW revision of John 1 for someone else. If you think there are two "gods" there then you guys are polytheists.



God’s name is Jehovah (or Yahweh—YHWH – Isaiah 42:8). Jesus has Jehovah’s name (John 17:11; John 16:14-15). Jesus must be Jehovah.

"Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one." - John 17:11

Jesus Must be Jehovah

Jesus Must be Jehovah
Yep....:facepalm: "Jesus MUST BE Jehovah".....why not "Jesus IS Jehovah"? Because they know that there is not one single statement from either Jesus or his Father even suggesting such a thing.

Ask any member of Christendom's thousands of sects, who God is, and see how many answer..."Jesus". There it is.

Have it your way if it suits you to believe a lie.....we will all know soon enough I guess.
 
Last edited:

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Even going by your interpretation of that verse, *which I don't , you would have an Angel noted, then G-d speaking from the burning bush.
So, not direct at all, just an interpretation, even by your own interpretation.

Who wrote the Pentateuch? Moses was writing about his own experience. He said an angel appeared to him.

Exodus 3:2..(from the Tanach.)
"An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from within the thorn bush, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, but the thorn bush was not being consumed.
בוַיֵּרָ֠א מַלְאַ֨ךְ יְהֹוָ֥ה אֵלָ֛יו בְּלַבַּת־אֵ֖שׁ מִתּ֣וֹךְ הַסְּנֶ֑ה וַיַּ֗רְא וְהִנֵּ֤ה
הַסְּנֶה֙ בֹּעֵ֣ר בָּאֵ֔שׁ וְהַסְּנֶ֖ה אֵינֶ֥נּוּ אֻכָּֽל:"


The angel conveyed God's message in God's own words, just as an angel did to Abraham when he was being informed about the coming birth of Isaac. This angel, we believe was the Logos.....who has always acted as God's spokesman.

Now read the account about Abraham at Mamre...Genesis 18-15 and ask yourself.....was one of those angels really Jehovah? He spoke God's message to Abraham. If he was God, then why did Jesus have to be born of a human mother...why couldn't God have just appeared as a man like he did with Abraham?

What made Jesus the Messiah?

Exodus 3:4-14
If these verses aren't direct, then nothing can be considered direct, which of course goes with your general interpretation of Scripture, anyway.

*I believe that it is God noted, and God talking, the whole way through.
Exodus 3:2-14

You can believe whatever you wish.....and I can disagree with you.

Verses 7-8 say.....
"And the Lord said, "I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry because of their slave drivers, for I know their pains.
I have descended to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians....."


In what way did Jehovah "descend" to rescue his people? Did he incarnate in Moses?

Who did Moses say was going to come in the future?
" The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him." (Deuteronomy 18:15) Peter identified this prophet as Jesus. (Acts 3:20-23)

Just as Moses was God's representative on earth from the Hebrew nation....so was Jesus. As the Logos, he was always God's spokesman.

 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Who wrote the Pentateuch? Moses was writing about his own experience. He said an angel appeared to him.

Exodus 3:2..(from the Tanach.)
"An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from within the thorn bush, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, but the thorn bush was not being consumed.
בוַיֵּרָ֠א מַלְאַ֨ךְ יְהֹוָ֥ה אֵלָ֛יו בְּלַבַּת־אֵ֖שׁ מִתּ֣וֹךְ הַסְּנֶ֑ה וַיַּ֗רְא וְהִנֵּ֤ה
הַסְּנֶה֙ בֹּעֵ֣ר בָּאֵ֔שׁ וְהַסְּנֶ֖ה אֵינֶ֥נּוּ אֻכָּֽל:"


The angel conveyed God's message in God's own words, just as an angel did to Abraham when he was being informed about the coming birth of Isaac. This angel, we believe was the Logos.....who has always acted as God's spokesman.

Now read the account about Abraham at Mamre...Genesis 18-15 and ask yourself.....was one of those angels really Jehovah? He spoke God's message to Abraham. If he was God, then why did Jesus have to be born of a human mother...why couldn't God have just appeared as a man like he did with Abraham?

What made Jesus the Messiah?



You can believe whatever you wish.....and I can disagree with you.

Verses 7-8 say.....
"And the Lord said, "I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry because of their slave drivers, for I know their pains.
I have descended to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians....."


In what way did Jehovah "descend" to rescue his people? Did he incarnate in Moses?

Who did Moses say was going to come in the future?
" The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him." (Deuteronomy 18:15) Peter identified this prophet as Jesus. (Acts 3:20-23)

Just as Moses was God's representative on earth from the Hebrew nation....so was Jesus. As the Logos, he was always God's spokesman.
Now you're saying two things. If Moses wrote the laws, then that isn't Jesus telling Moses what to say. When does Jesus stop talking to Moses?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Who wrote the Pentateuch? Moses was writing about his own experience. He said an angel appeared to him.

Exodus 3:2..(from the Tanach.)
"An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from within the thorn bush, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, but the thorn bush was not being consumed.
בוַיֵּרָ֠א מַלְאַ֨ךְ יְהֹוָ֥ה אֵלָ֛יו בְּלַבַּת־אֵ֖שׁ מִתּ֣וֹךְ הַסְּנֶ֑ה וַיַּ֗רְא וְהִנֵּ֤ה
הַסְּנֶה֙ בֹּעֵ֣ר בָּאֵ֔שׁ וְהַסְּנֶ֖ה אֵינֶ֥נּוּ אֻכָּֽל:"


The angel conveyed God's message in God's own words, just as an angel did to Abraham when he was being informed about the coming birth of Isaac. This angel, we believe was the Logos.....who has always acted as God's spokesman.

Now read the account about Abraham at Mamre...Genesis 18-15 and ask yourself.....was one of those angels really Jehovah? He spoke God's message to Abraham. If he was God, then why did Jesus have to be born of a human mother...why couldn't God have just appeared as a man like he did with Abraham?

What made Jesus the Messiah?



You can believe whatever you wish.....and I can disagree with you.

Verses 7-8 say.....
"And the Lord said, "I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry because of their slave drivers, for I know their pains.
I have descended to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians....."


In what way did Jehovah "descend" to rescue his people? Did he incarnate in Moses?

Who did Moses say was going to come in the future?
" The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him." (Deuteronomy 18:15) Peter identified this prophet as Jesus. (Acts 3:20-23)

Just as Moses was God's representative on earth from the Hebrew nation....so was Jesus. As the Logos, he was always God's spokesman.
Yeah, not buying that. Sounds like you're trying to make something 'divine' when it isn't.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Read the book of Galatians for a christian perpective on the 'added laws'. Thats what they're called, aside from being called a 'curse'.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
..............................

Although the following Bible has plenty of mistranslations, it has rendered this part of Phil. 2:6 correctly:

“He did not think that by force [harpagmos] he should try to become equal with God” - GNB.

The reason is because of the clear meaning of the New Testament (NT) Greek word harpagmos (ἁρπαγμὸς).

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance (by trinitarian writer and trinitarian publisher) tells us that harpagmos means “plunder” and that it comes from the source word harpazo which means: “to seize ... catch away, pluck, take (by force).” - #725 & 726, Abingdon Press, 1974 printing.

“725 harpagmós – to seize, especially by an open display of force. See 726 (harpazō).” - HELPS Word-studies, copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.

And the New American Standard Concordance of the Bible (also by trinitarians) tells us: “harpagmos; from [harpazo]; the act of seizing or the thing seized.” And, “harpazo ... to seize, catch up, snatch away.” Notice that all have to do with taking something away by force. - # 725 & #726, Holman Bible Publ., 1981.

In fact, the trinitarian The Expositor’s Greek Testament, 1967, pp. 436, 437, vol. III, tells us:

“We cannot find any passage where [harpazo] or any of its derivatives [which include harpagmos] has the sense of ‘holding in possession,’ ‘retaining’ [as preferred in many trinitarian translations of Phil. 2:6]. It seems invariably to mean ‘seize’, ‘snatch violently’. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense [‘snatch violently’] into one which is totally different, ‘hold fast.’ ”

Even the very trinitarian NT Greek expert, W. E. Vine, had to admit that harpagmos is “akin to harpazo, to seize, carry off by force.” - p. 887, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

And the trinitarian The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology tells us that the majority of Bible scholars (mostly trinitarian, of course)

“have taken harpagmos to mean a thing plundered or seized..., and so spoil, booty or a prize of war.” - p. 604, vol. 3, Zondervan, 1986.

The key to both these words (harpagmos and its source word, harpazo) is: taking something away from someone by force and against his will. And if we should find a euphemism such as “prize” used in a trinitarian Bible for harpagmos, it has to be understood only in the same sense as a pirate ship forcibly seizing another ship as its “prize”!
This was exactly what I was going to post, about the usage of ‘harpagmon’ the word Paul used in Philippians 2:6, rendered ‘grasping’ or ‘seizing’, never ‘holding onto.’

Great post, tigger2!
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
@Spartan ...
“Divine” means “of or from God.” (Look it up.)
So angels are divine. This planet, our Sun and moon, the stars.... all are “from” God. (“Divine retribution” would be “from God.”)

Adam, before he sinned, was divine.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
That's a rather astounding statement -- you say "When Jesus isn't God..." When he isn't God?????? I'm going by your words and wondering when you think (according to your understanding) that Jesus wasn't "God" sometimes. God means superior entity. Therefore, many have many "gods." But for a Christian, the word denoting the Most High God is He who spoke from heaven stating that we should listen to His son.
When Yahweh incarnated, in order to sacrifice himself on the cross, then he clearly is partly separate from god.

This should be obvious.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Yep....:facepalm: "Jesus MUST BE Jehovah".....why not "Jesus IS Jehovah"? Because they know that there is not one single statement from either Jesus or his Father even suggesting such a thing.

Ask any member of Christendom's thousands of sects, who God is, and see how many answer..."Jesus". There it is.

Have it your way if it suits you to believe a lie.....we will all know soon enough I guess.
The Tetragrammaton isn't in the New Testament at all, that is a terrible argument.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The church didn't invent the trinity.....

Of course they did!

On top of all the multitudinous passages that demonstrate Jesus’ own subjection to God, we can also see how the 1st-century Christians viewed Jesus. Acts of the Apostles 4:24-30 tells us of a prayer they gave, addressed to the “Sovereign Lord...” (Sorry, not Jesus.)

In that prayer, you know what they called Jesus? God’s “servant”! Twice! They did not view Jesus as God; they viewed Jesus, correctly as the Savior sent by God, but also correctly, as the Sovereign Lord’s servant!
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Of course they did!

On top of all the multitudinous passages that demonstrate Jesus’ own subjection to God, we can also see how the 1st-century Christians viewed Jesus. Acts of the Apostles 4:24-30 tells us of a prayer they gave, addressed to the “Sovereign Lord...” (Sorry, not Jesus.)

In that prayer, you know what they called Jesus? God’s “servant”! Twice! They did not view Jesus as God; they viewed Jesus, correctly as the Savior sent by God, but also correctly, as the Sovereign Lord’s servant!
The Christian Bible does not work in direct parallel with how you are deriving the Tetragrammaton . The word there is Lord, and when they (bible versions, delineate the different words, it doesn't have a theological equivalent.

This is why Jesus is Yahweh, if you are trying to use a parallel word usage, and why your arguments don't work.

In other words, when you use the name Yahweh as an argument with the title Lord, then Jesus is Yahweh.

Your arguments are never actually going to be textual, which is why you have to use a revised or changed bible.

 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
If you are calling Yahweh G-d, then Biblically, you are calling Jesus G-d. That's all there is to it.

This why the separate trinity persons idea is called a 'mystery'.:smirkcat:
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The Christian Bible does not work in direct parallel with how you are deriving the Tetragrammaton . The word there is Lord, and when they (bible versions, delineate the different words, it doesn't have a theological equivalent.

This is why Jesus is Yahweh, if you are trying to use a parallel word usage, and why your arguments don't work.

In other words, when you use the name Yahweh as an argument with the title Lord, then Jesus is Yahweh.

Your arguments are never actually going to be textual, which is why you have to use a revised or changed bible.
Jesus worshipped Yahweh, the God of the Jews. -John 20:17
And I’ll use any Bible, with the accepted 66-book canon.

You should just read it, comparing related Passages, without injecting pre-supposed theology into the text.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Of course they did!

On top of all the multitudinous passages that demonstrate Jesus’ own subjection to God, we can also see how the 1st-century Christians viewed Jesus. Acts of the Apostles 4:24-30 tells us of a prayer they gave, addressed to the “Sovereign Lord...” (Sorry, not Jesus.)

In that prayer, you know what they called Jesus? God’s “servant”! Twice! They did not view Jesus as God; they viewed Jesus, correctly as the Savior sent by God, but also correctly, as the Sovereign Lord’s servant!
Jesus in human form is Yahweh, since only a deity can redeem sins by dieing on the cross. In Spirit form, Jesus is the Lord, Yah.

That's why it's Jesus's kingdom, not Yahwehs.

'All power of heaven and earth.'.

The Bible clearly is telling you that Jesus is the Lord aspect of God.

Yahweh had to incarnate as a sacrifice, and Jesus receives the Kingdom,
its right there in the Bible.
 
Last edited:

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
When Yahweh incarnated, in order to sacrifice himself on the cross, then he clearly is partly separate from god.

This should be obvious.
The Bible does not equate Jesus with his Father. Jesus said, without equivocation, that the Father is greater than he is. He also prayed to his Father. A husband and wife are said to be one, just as Jesus is one with the Father. But that does not mean that the wife is the husband or the husband is the wife in any sense of understanding.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
The Bible does not equate Jesus with his Father. Jesus said, without equivocation, that the Father is greater than he is. He also prayed to his Father. A husband and wife are said to be one, just as Jesus is one with the Father. But that does not mean that the wife is the husband or the husband is the wife in any sense of understanding.
You need to start describing what you interpret the sacrifice to be, so forth, instead of just saying what it isn't.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Jesus in human form is Yahweh, since only a deity can redeem sins by dieing on the cross. In Spirit form, Jesus is the Lord, Yah.

That's why it's Jesus's kingdom, not Yahwehs.

'All power of heaven and earth.'.

The Bible clearly is telling you that Jesus is the Lord aspect of God.

Yahweh had to incarnate as a sacrifice, and Jesus receives the Kingdom,
its right there in the Bible.
1 Corinthians 15:3-5 says,
"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He appeared to Cephas and then to the Twelve."

God in any form does not die. I think you're confusing who Jesus really is. I'll just say this: as the SON of God, he has and had great power and significance.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
1 Corinthians 15:3-5 says,
"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He appeared to Cephas and then to the Twelve."

God in any form does not die. I think you're confusing who Jesus really is. I'll just say this: as the SON of God, he has and had great power and significance.
I disagree, ...
This must be a self Sacrifice, because Jesus incarnated as Human.
John 10
Only God can make this sacrifice.
 
Top