[Virtue] Talking about right speech and purification

[Samana Johann]

When asked about virtue most, if investigating truthfully, find the virtue of right speech, headed by abstaining from giving signs of what is not true, most difficult. Since it is one of the topics contuctive for long term benefit, it's good to try to give it space and to provide a "teaser" for skilful verbalication:

Self-purification through well-chosen speech

"And how is one made pure in four ways by verbal action?

"There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, 'Come & tell, good man, what you know': If he doesn't know, he says, 'I don't know.' If he does know, he says, 'I know.' If he hasn't seen, he says, 'I haven't seen.' If he has seen, he says, 'I have seen.' Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech. He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world.

"Abandoning divisive speech he abstains from divisive speech. What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those people apart from these people here. What he has heard there he does not tell here to break these people apart from those people there. Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord.

"Abandoning abusive speech, he abstains from abusive speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing & pleasing to people at large.

"Abandoning idle chatter, he abstains from idle chatter. He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, & the Vinaya. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal.

"This is how one is made pure in four ways by verbal action."

— AN 10.176
​

 

[Shadow Wolf]

"Abandoning idle chatter, he abstains from idle chatter. He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, & the Vinaya. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal.

How is it not virtuous to chat and talk with people just for the sake of talking to them? We're social animals. It's what we do. So, definitely, we most certainly should Keep Talking. It's how we communicate what we are thinking, how we are feeling, form social bonds, learn things, discover things, and enrich life.

 

[Samana Johann]

How is it not virtuous to chat and talk with people just for the sake of talking to them? We're social animals. It's what we do. So, definitely, we most certainly should Keep Talking. It's how we communicate what we are thinking, how we are feeling, form social bond

Has it ever lead to release, talk on low topics, or increased greed, anger and confusion, young householder? Of course it needs faith at first place or huge suffering, that one tries to abstain and knows the benefit for oneself.

Not is it, to do not understand wrong, that silents would lead to peace. Good and needed to ask, good and needed to do such when ever unskilful mind arises, yet the marked and those engaging in low topics, those who speak "i see", while not, is of course also no refuge, no way to purify on oneside or even both.

 

[Samana Johann]

Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta: The Shorter Analysis of Action

"There is the case where a woman or man when visiting a brahman or contemplative, does not ask: 'What is skillful, venerable sir? What is unskillful? What is blameworthy? What is blameless? What should be cultivated? What should not be cultivated? What, having been done by me, will be for my long-term harm & suffering? Or what, having been done by me, will be for my long-term welfare & happiness?' Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she will be stupid wherever reborn. This is the way leading to stupidity: when visiting a brahman or contemplative, not to ask: 'What is skillful?... Or what, having been done by me, will be for my long-term welfare & happiness?'

"But then there is the case where a woman or man when visiting a brahman or contemplative, asks: 'What is skillful, venerable sir? What is unskillful? What is blameworthy? What is blameless? What should be cultivated? What should not be cultivated? What, having been done by me, will be for my long-term harm & suffering? Or what, having been done by me, will be for my long-term welfare & happiness?' Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in a good destination... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is discerning wherever reborn. This is the way leading to discernment: when visiting a brahman or contemplative, to ask: 'What is skillful?... Or what, having been done by me, will be for my long-term welfare & happiness?'​

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Has it ever lead to release, talk on low topics, or increased greed, anger and confusion, young householder? Of course it needs faith at first place or huge suffering, that one tries to abstain and knows the benefit for oneself.

Not is it, to do not understand wrong, that silents would lead to peace. Good and needed to ask, good and needed to do such when ever unskilful mind arises, yet the marked and those engaging in low topics, those who speak "i see", while not, is of course also no refuge, no way to purify on oneside or even both.

How does chatting with someone to just chat with them lead to greed, anger, and confusion? I'm not always in the mood to talk, but when I am I like to talk, I want to talk, and I feel good when I get to. And then sometimes I even turn into a chatterbox. I don't get to talk then I start to feel antsy.

 

[Samana Johann]

How does chatting with someone to just chat with them lead to greed, anger, and confusion?

Isn't it even greed, desire, lust , anger, aversion, sadness, or not understanding, confusion, delusion that leads to join useless chats at first place? Again, it's not wrong and good to seek release by asking and listening, approach those not likewise caught. It's be following advices like "turn your mind there" that one gains satisfaction, release. But if taking on subjects of imperfection, nurish holding on them, giving into poision, what else as increasing pain, even if getting the desired shot, whould be it's destiny, what else then low realms are destiny for addicted?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Isn't it even greed, desire, lust , anger, aversion, sadness, or not understanding, confusion, delusion that leads to join useless chats?

Nope. It can be nothing more than enjoying the company of someone. A way to pass time. Have fun. It can also help make people feel more comfortable, as most people are uncomfortable in silence when other people are around.

 

[Samana Johann]

Asked whether it's greed, lust, desire, householder answers "No, it's just greed, lust, desire..."

Nope. It can be nothing more than enjoying the company of someone. A way to pass time. Have fun. It can also help make people feel more comfortable, as most people are uncomfortable in silence when other people are around.

And as soon seeing ones drugs fading, aversion arises, sadness and pain. The more addicted to "sex" the more fear to break apart and that can not be prevented. That is why those after useless entertaining are headed to low realms, long pain.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Asked whether it's greed, lust, desire, householder answers "No, it's just greed, lust, desire..."


And as soon seeing ones drugs fading, aversion arises, sadness and pain. The more addicted to "sex" the more fear to break apart and that can not be prevented. That is why those after useless entertaining are headed to low realms, long pain.

You keep implying I'm addicted to sex, but I've not had it in several years. You've mentioned drug use, but I'm not on any. Really, you are no different than the dozens of others who insist I have to be this way and I must be that way, not because I am, but because they have to fit me into those boxes for their world narrative and view points to work. You're really no different than those Christians who say I must turn to Jesus to easy my burdens and end my pains and suffering. But, they are assuming I have these burdens and am suffering. Or they'll claim my life is depressed and without meaning. I have major depression disorder, but that is the result of a chemical imbalance (and possibly from a difficult childhood), and my life is with meaning and purpose.
You can do what you want. I'll keep feeling love and anger, talking and being quiet, I'll keep on laughing and crying, and enjoying this life, all it offers, and treasure it all.

 

[Samana Johann]

You can do what you want.

That's an importand point: freedom of choices. One can only tell about the backwards of addictions, being attached to, dangerouse things, when asked or place to mention it. It's neither possible not wise to use forces. Some need to burn themselves first and might remember then, for some it will be to late then, and some isn't to help.

Nothing wrong in pleasure just watch out whether it harms others, yourself or both. No wise would be even envy if others enjoy, yet they wouldn't let one run into mine-field without telling. Once told it's fine for them since beings are heirs of their actions.

There is the kitchen designed if wishing to nourish greed, aversion and delusion but of course nobody could prevent one to do not use any space for such. How ever young householder feels that it would support her long term happiness: she is total free to do wise or not so wise, total.

 

[sun rise]

You keep implying I'm addicted to sex, but I've not had it in several years. You've mentioned drug use, but I'm not on any. Really, you are no different than the dozens of others who insist I have to be this way and I must be that way, not because I am, but because they have to fit me into those boxes for their world narrative and view points to work. You're really no different than those Christians who say I must turn to Jesus to easy my burdens and end my pains and suffering. But, they are assuming I have these burdens and am suffering. Or they'll claim my life is depressed and without meaning. I have major depression disorder, but that is the result of a chemical imbalance (and possibly from a difficult childhood), and my life is with meaning and purpose.
You can do what you want. I'll keep feeling love and anger, talking and being quiet, I'll keep on laughing and crying, and enjoying this life, all it offers, and treasure it all.

He's preaching so your comment is accurate. His path is valid for him. Your path through life is yours.

 

[sun rise]

young householder

From the Buddhist monk perspective, that's accurate. But in the context of here, it's offputting at least to me.

 

[Samana Johann]

His path is valid for him. Your path through life is yours.

Every gone path is ones own path. Nevertheless there are path leading to long term happiness, and paths leading to suffering and pain, householder. Does she think that it's compassionate to stay silent if knowing where another ones way leads, for the sake of giving favors?

 

[Samana Johann]

From the Buddhist monk perspective, that's accurate. But in the context of here, it's offputting at least to me.

Why is such off-putting for one holding on house, cherishing house, to be addressed as householder by a homeless, by a beggar? It would be understandable if addressing householder as beggar, wouldn't it?
Would it be off-putting when householders child addresses here with mother or mum? If so, there would be less aid to let householder dwell at proper position. There are, my person does not say there aren't mother being ashamed if called mother by there childs, householder being called householder by homeless.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

From the Buddhist monk perspective, that's accurate. But in the context of here, it's offputting at least to me.

Fine then, seasoned doggyhouse holder!

 

[Samana Johann]

Fine then, seasoned doggyhouse h

See, such small enjoyment, looking like honey, one day, if not right now, will lead to unpleasant. Why? Because the joy gained is based on lose of another, at least the try. It's not so that a certain beggar would be angry or carry on such as ill-will, nor would be join the food. What falls back to one is the impure one throws out. That's why such is told, not at all for defense, young householder.

That why wise do not approve joking, since it is for the lose of others that one lifts himself by such means.

 

[Samana Johann]

Maybe it's good to make certain reasons more visible and envy is often the reason for wrong speech, see for your self, young householder @Shadow Wolf in how far such could fit (by yourself you could prove). Here a short story:

Hogs and the Emerald Cave

Once upon a time, a big lion has his den in an emerald cave in the Himalayas. Near this cave lived a herd of dogs, and they live in constant fear of the fierce lion. They blamed the emerald glow of the cave for their woe. So they first rolled about in the muddy lake and rubbed the emerald cave with mud. However, the emerald cave grew more and more radiant and shiny. Likewise, those who slander, envy and belittle others, actually get opposite consequences. Only they themselves will suffer from hardship while the other is propelled further into prosperity.

Issa (Envy)​

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Because the joy gained is based on lose of another, at least the try.

Did it not occur to you the emote indicates the post was made in jest, and that we might be on good enough terms to take those things called "friendly jabs" at each other?
Sorta like this one time my brother said to me "so, you ARE a soulless ginger!" Because of the context, and because he is my brother and he wouldn't intentionally harm me, it was actually really funny. No lose of another, no unpleasantness, just sibling bonding.

 

[Samana Johann]

Because of the context, and because he is my brother and he wouldn't intentionally harm me, it was actually really funny. No lose of another, no unpleasantness, just sibling bonding

Has young householder ever obsered young dogs? When they are young the "play" harming each other, but it's only a matter of time, used to fight and bite, that their habits and skills, never restrained from not giving into, will lead to no shame of harm and blood, killing even their siblings, father and mother. One who is still addicted to the sense is still able to kill his father, mother, saints, harming a Buddha and give split between noble ones. That is why wise never approve joking and playing around. Fun nearly always runs out to become seriouse. Something householder might remember also well, but maybe gave it not much attention.

It would be foolish to believe siblings, relatives... couldn't harm each other, children not kill their parents, and one main reason is because they forget where they stand.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Has young householder ever obsered young dogs? When they are young the "play" harming each other, but it's only a matter of time, used to fight and bite, that their habits and skills, never restrained from not giving into, will lead to no shame of harm and blood, killing even their siblings, father and mother. One who is still addicted to the sense is still able to kill his father, mother, saints, harming a Buddha and give split between noble ones. That is why wise never approve joking and playing around. Fun nearly always runs out to become seriouse. Something householder might remember also well, but maybe gave it not much attention.

It would be foolish to believe siblings, relatives... couldn't harm each other, children not kill their parents, and one main reason is because they forget where they stand.

Here's another example, president taking friendly jabs at a basketball team.
At White House, Obama Takes Friendly Jabs at Miami Heat, the Team of His Terms
*edited as original source wasn't working correctly