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Blaming the innocent...

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Absolutely, if you don't take into account that in China the government (people) oppress the innocent Chinese, Russia (people) kill innocent people who speak up against them and North Koreas (people) have mucho prison camps of innocent people... BUT CHRISTIAN, who are going about saying "For God loved the whole world" are accusing Canaanites, who did child sacrifices and permeated their lives with beastiality, are as @Evangelicalhumanist says, just ordinary people!

:facepalm:

Somebody... please help me.
Ken, get possession of yourself. In China, the government is not "the people" (although it is made up of a very few people). This is the whole point of the western struggle for liberal democracy, about which China knows and cares not a bit. Same is true of Russia and North Korea. So my question about what "the ordinary people" are about is still absolutely valid. And so is my answer: they're trying to survive, to raise and educate their children. Can you tell me how God is helping them?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
I think the passages you cite cause something of a problem. Since it is Jesus Christ speaking, then we must assume it's about 29 CE. Now the problem seems to be this: who, from among the generation alive when Jesus was speaking, has not passed away? I mean, after all, we have yet to see the Parousia, so by Jesus's own words, some of them must still be alive today. Do you know where they're hiding?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Work colonies were established for minors, and new laws were adapted that allowed for the execution of children under the age of 12.

Stalin's Reign of Terror - War and Genocide in Children's Literature

yes... the difference between sacrificing children and executing children is....... well it is different because although both are killed, it is different because....

Well... because one is killed and the other is too. Got it!
What is it, exactly, that you are pleading for here? You seem to want to make it absolutely objectionable what Stalin did -- and you're right, it is absolutely objectionable! I couldn't agree with you more! Congratulations on your insight.

I just go one step further than you do, however. I say that when God does it, it is also absolutely objectionable. And there, you disagree. You are happy to invent as many excuses for the same behaviour by God that you can think of, that you would not grant anywhere else.

Well here's my philosophy: a wrong is a wrong, no matter who commits it.

And here's my objection to your religious reading: God's omniscience, if, as you say, it is being used to kill children who have yet to commit any crime at all, comes far, far too late. Omniscience means that God knew before it got that far, that it would come to their killing, and thus by taking any arbitrary earlier action, God could have PREVENTED all that useless killing. (And philosophically, that's the problem with assuming "omni" anything, since it will inevitably run into a logical morass from which there's no escape.)
 
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Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
The Jews were just a Canaanite tribe, but they always demonized their neighbors.. Israel and Judah even demonized each other.
Quite so, the Jews arose from within the Canaanites. During the diaspora, the Jews retained their Jewish identity, while those who remained in the lands out of which they all emerged, eventually converted to either Islam or Christianity. It is my view, and the view of many historians these days, that the Biblical stories of the Exodus and the conquest of Canaan are really just origin myths, stories developed to provide group coherence among those Canaanites who now identified themselves as Jews.

In "The Bible Unearthed," authors Finkelstein and Silberman argue that instead of the Exodus of the Israelites, followed by their conquering Canaan (Joshua), that for the most part they had always been there; they were simply Canaanites who developed a distinct culture. Surveys of settlements in the Israelite heartlands don't show any signs of invasion, nor even peaceful infiltration. Rather, they reveal a sudden demographic transformation about 1200 BCE in which villages appear in the previously unpopulated highlands. And these settlements resemble modern Bedouin camps, which seems to show that the inhabitants were once pastoral nomads, driven to take up farming by the late Bronze Age collapse of the Canaanite city-culture.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
are you blaming God?
the followers of God?
or Man?

it is written.....dominate all things
God gave Man.....dominion

and under the notion of freewill
Man is the culprit of harm done

occasional tweaks...….like the flood event
stay off the pending doom
the extinction of Man

are you in a hurry?
Be plain, good son, and homely in thy drift.
Riddling confession finds but riddling shrift
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Now you better.

And it was not sacrifice, but mass murder in the name of nationalism
Ok... you call it nationalism and mass murder and I call it sacrifice and in the name of the religion of unbridled atheism.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Unless of course the "dads, sons, uncles and strangers" are pedophiles.....:shrug:
What, all of them? :eek:

Sorry, that's all I'm going to answer from your long post, since you merely relate the things you believe, based primarily on Revelation (the book that almost didn't make the Bible). It's a book that doesn't engage even my curiosity, unlike many other books of the Bible. Give me Ecclesiastes any day over Revelation.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
What makes you sure your prediction will be correct when everybody else has failed 100% of the time?
The question of the week!!

I am always fascinated that after every failure of every prediction, the supposed "prophets" immediately jump to the conclusion that they must have made a small error in reading or calculation -- you know, missed a comma, or forgot to carry the 2. But they never, ever, no matter how many times they go through the exercise, do they entertain even for a moment that their basic assumptions are simply without merit.

How could they? What would be left for them?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Ok... you call it nationalism and mass murder and I call it sacrifice and in the name of the religion of unbridled atheism.
Then you are unlearned, when it comes to history. It was never ABOUT ATHEISM. It was about Marxism, a political/economic theory turned into an ideology. You might notice that during the 70 odd years of the Communist party domination of Russia that the party did destroy churches, did kill clergymen, did flood the schools with atheist doctrines, etc. You may also have noticed that the vast majority of Russians retained their beliefs anyway, and that the Russian Orthodox Church continued to operate throughout the whole time.

The massive numbers of deaths, however, were never about religion (or atheism). They were about changing the economic order, taking ownership of property away from person and arrogating it to the state, about collectivization of labour, and a variety of other political and economic programs.

So you may, of course, call it what you'd like. But wouldn't it be better, really, to learn what the truth is? Is that not something of interest to you?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
People have been making the same claims for 2000 years now.

Actually, the amounts and frequencies of war have been decreasing, even on a global scale.

Crime has been going down.

There are thousands of those each and every year. The bulk majority are where nobody lives though so we only notice a handful of them.

Then why have so many of us never been so secure that we know we have a next meal? Why is there no plague or widespread epidemics, only over hyped "disease of the year" that scare people and turn out to be not nearly as bad as we're told?


It's not the Great Depression, Black Death, WWII, what makes these critical times hard to deal with?

We've been restricting this love of money - no more slavery, child labor laws, worker protections, environmental protections, even tobacco companies have been heavily restricted.

Where is this going on?

What impending danger?

That too has been going on since the first predicted-and-failed end of times prediction. What about Jesus saying those things would happen while some of the Disciples were still alive?

Yep...the world has never been a better place to live in many respects.....yet the epidemic of depression has engulfed mankind as never before. How much of the “happiness” people think exists is just an illusion? There is a sense of hopelessness that permeates the thinking of people in spite of all their advances.

Tell the people of Syria or any of the refugees fleeing their countries how good it is to live in this world.....
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Quite so, the Jews arose from within the Canaanites. During the diaspora, the Jews retained their Jewish identity, while those who remained in the lands out of which they all emerged, eventually converted to either Islam or Christianity.

It is my view, and the view of many historians these days, that the Biblical stories of the Exodus and the conquest of Canaan are really just origin myths, stories developed to provide group coherence among those Canaanites who now identified themselves as Jews.

In "The Bible Unearthed," authors Finkelstein and Silberman argue that instead of the Exodus of the Israelites, followed by their conquering Canaan (Joshua), that for the most part they had always been there; they were simply Canaanites who developed a distinct culture.

S
urveys of settlements in the Israelite heartlands don't show any signs of invasion, nor even peaceful infiltration. Rather, they reveal a sudden demographic transformation about 1200 BCE in which villages appear in the previously unpopulated highlands. And these settlements resemble modern Bedouin camps, which seems to show that the inhabitants were once pastoral nomads, driven to take up farming by the late Bronze Age collapse of the Canaanite city-culture.

Yes, yes, yes. Finkelstein and Silberman are very dedicated scholars... and I have read everything I could find from them. They are very thorough and not given to illusions or fanciful thinking.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
All of these things have been true ever since that prophecy has been given...what makes today any different? That is, perhaps the brilliance of a good prophecy, to seem specific but be everlastingly relevant.

Interesting you should say that...Peter spoke about that...scoffers would be part of the prophesy....

First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”

5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people.

8 However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 9 Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 But Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be exposed.

Those who are in expectation of “Jehovah’s day” recognize the sign as applying only to this time period. I believe that it is God who gives them that conviction and they carry out the global preaching that Jesus foretold, so that none can say that they were not warned. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
What, all of them? :eek:

Even some of them is too many.

Sorry, that's all I'm going to answer from your long post, since you merely relate the things you believe, based primarily on Revelation (the book that almost didn't make the Bible). It's a book that doesn't engage even my curiosity, unlike many other books of the Bible. Give me Ecclesiastes any day over Revelation.

The Bible is one book that tells one story from start to finish. It is not a book by men, but I believe, authored by the Creator using human secretaries.
You can choose to believe in him....or not. You can choose to believe the Bible...or not. You can choose some parts of it and not others....its up to you.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I think the passages you cite cause something of a problem. Since it is Jesus Christ speaking, then we must assume it's about 29 CE. Now the problem seems to be this: who, from among the generation alive when Jesus was speaking, has not passed away? I mean, after all, we have yet to see the Parousia, so by Jesus's own words, some of them must still be alive today. Do you know where they're hiding?
You didn't read my previous post very well. I said He was not referring to those He was speaking to , but to the generation who would be alive in the future when the last day events He spoke of were to take place. No other generation has seen the nation of Israel restored to the land, as prophesied except the present.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Wrong. You do not understand my thoughts or realizations concerning the Bible at all.

Incorrect: based on what you wrote? You were *exactly* cherry-picking. I know -- I used to do the exact same thing.

You also admitted that picking a Random Bible Verse-- and doing what it says-- would get you arrested. That was why you objected to doing that little game!

Your "reasons" for refusing to play the Do What The Bible Says game? Were a fine example of pure cognitive dissonance at work-- because on some level, you recognize how immoral the bible's commands really are.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
You didn't read my previous post very well. I said He was not referring to those He was speaking to , but to the generation who would be alive in the future when the last day events He spoke of were to take place. No other generation has seen the nation of Israel restored to the land, as prophesied except the present.
For the record, what you are doing is called "eisegesis." It means "reading into" the Bible what you want it to say, rather than the more common (and more acceptable) exegesis, meaning trying to extract the meaning from what the words and context actually say.

Eisegesis, in my opinion (and in the opinion of many others, much smarter than I am) is very poor theology, and pretty much invariably dishonest.

I replay your own quotes back at you: "4 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

There is nothing, not one shard, that suggests that Jesus is talking to people in the future when he says "I say to you" (the people listening to him in the moment), "this generation will by no means pass away..." To make it say what you mean, you have to invent it out of whole cloth.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Of course, that is why he made it an atheistic state... it was because they were Christians. Got it!

Nope. Neither Stalin nor Mao killed **anyone** because they were of any religious persuasion, christian or otherwise.

They killed out of a desire for power, to keep rigid order, to suppress dissenting voices. They were both Lawful Evil, in gaming terms: Law And Order Above All Else-- Or Else.

It just so happened, that some (not remotely all) christians objected to Stalin's Draconian Enforcement of his Power. And he killed them for that-- for trying to speak out, or oppose his Power Structure. Chrisitans who did not try to go against Stalin? Managed to do quite well-- but you do not consider Eastern Orthodox a "proper" christian group-- no doubt you consider them "atheist" too.... right?

I'm less familiar with Mao, but I have no doubt it was similar. In any case, the Chinese have a very different culture, one that christianity simply doesn't fit in very well. It is hardly surprising they reject a Western Religion telling them their OWN religion is "wrong"....

Really, considering the horrible attitude of pretty much all missionaries? I do not really blame them for rejecting that horrible death cult. Had zip to do with atheism. It was a rejection of the Holier Than Thou attitude all missionaries bring.
 
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