Will Mankind Survive?

[Nimos]

They are all evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God, but they are not proof. Do you know the difference between evidence and proof?

Lets look at them one by one.

What He was like as a person (His character)
What a person is like is not evidence for anything.

What He did during His mission on earth;
That he spend a lot of time spreading his teachings and religion, is no different than any other highly dedicated religious person. And again its not evidence for anything.

The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward
Him having a goal to unite religions or make it so they can live together under his teachings are not evidence for anything, just a person with a plan as everyone else that, think they know the truth. There have been countless of people with ideas for how to change the world both religious and none religious.

The scriptures that were attributed to Him or scriptures that He wrote;
Makes absolutely no difference what he wrote or what was writing about it. Unless his scriptures and prophecies, miracles etc. without a shadow of a doubt can be shown to have divine inspiration or other supernatural meaning that relate to a God. Then this is not evidence for anything.

What others have written about Him;
Doesn't matter what anyone wrote about him, people wrote about Jesus and Muhammed, it doesn't make any of it true or more likely to be true.

The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,
People claim that prophecies in the bible are constantly shown as evidence for their believes, you just claim the bible talks about Baha'u'llah, but his name is not written in the bible and there is nothing in it about accepting or unifying religions and I also doubt you will find any of that in the Quran.

The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
Without knowing for sure, my guess is that these follow along the lines of those found in the bible. Unspecific writings that can be applied to lots of people, depending on how you read them.

The predictions He made that have come to pass;
Again these predictions are so weak and unspecific, that it would be like me making a prediction now "A mighty nation will fall and its people suffer. But from the dust a new nation will be born." Im pretty sure that will come to past at some point.

The religion that He established (followers), what they have done and are doing now.
Not evidence for anything, JW, Scientology, Christianity, Islam etc. have all done this before the Bahai. Its only evidence that people believe in things not evidence for it being true.

So all in all these are merely claims.

It cannot be someone else, if Baha’u’llah ALREADY fulfilled the prophecies BY His coming; when He came, where He appeared, what He did on His mission, and the geographical places that exist as the result of His Coming, not to mention the fact that the Baha’i World Centre is in Haifa, Is on Mt. Carmel, all in fulfillment to various prophecies... I could go on and on, but f you want to read about the prophecies you can read Thief in the Night by William Sears.

The Bahai world centre were build in 1909, how does that proof anything?

You can read about it on this website: Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

Looked through these rather fast as it would take a long time to go through all of them, so won't do that. But from those I could see, these are not evidence either, from what I can see, but merely someone giving his view on varies text found in scriptures and what he believes that they mean. There is nothing different about this, than what every other religious person does, when they go through whatever and say "See this point to this and that". As long as these are not specifics how do you decide who is right and who is wrong?

The predictions were neither weak nor unspecificNot only did Baha’u’llah know things He did not learn in any school, He also predicted many things that later came to pass. Here is a list of 30 specific things Baha’u’llah knew and things He predicted that later came to pass: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

"Prophecy 2: The defeat of Germany in two bloody wars, resulting in the 'lamentations of Berlin'."
This is one of them. What Baha'u'llah wrote:

O King of Berlin!... Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power [Napoleon III], and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He

44 THE CHALLENGE OF BAHA'U'LLAH

it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves. Be warned, be of them who reflect. 63

Baha'u'llah then painted this amazing word-picture of a Germany broken and bleeding in the wake of two successive armed conflicts:

O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And we hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory. 64

I really don't see why you think that is a good prediction, one of the biggest countries in Europe and there are no dates and it doesn't say anything about two times. Im sorry, but to me that prediction is as good as mine above.

That is only PART of the evidence.

No its not evidence for anything other than more than one people people it. A lot of people believe in alien visitations to Earth it doesn't make it more valid unless we have actual testable evidence. People claiming to have seen these and having blurry images, videos and one believing their friend simply is not evidence worth anything, if they can't be verified in any way. They are simply claims and you may or may not believe them, but its doesn't add anything to the validity and since it doesn't do that, it can't be evidence for anything.

Continue..

 

[Nimos]

Despite the good evidence, the reasons people do not join up are as follows:

I looked at some of the "evidence" and again I see nothing valid here except some claims.

Baha’u’llah explained how we are supposed to establish the truth of His claim. First, we examine His own Self (His character); second we examine His Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth); and third we look at His words (His Writings).

So their is only Baha'u'llah's account that he had a revelation while in prison, im sorry but that doesn't really help anything. Which tells us nothing about whether his revelation is true or not and then finally his writings. Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against him or Bahai, but in regards to seeking truth and what to believe and not. I just don't see any of this as evidence for anything.

I am not sure what you mean. The Bible and the Qur’an did not lay out any plans for humanity the way Baha’u’llah did.

Maybe not for all of humanity, well if you are Christian the bible does and in you are a Muslim it also teaches you how to behave. But they have the same problem as the Bahai does, because if everyone were Christian or Muslim then everything would be great as people could live according to whatever rules those that decide what means come up with. So there are not really any difference here. Remember that God did give the Jews laws and told them how to behave etc as well

I never said that. The other religious people did what they were enjoined to do by their religions for the last 2000 years. Now it is time to move on and do what Baha’u’llah has enjoined us to do.

That is what I mean, they pretty much wasted 2000+ years wasting time and causing confusion, because Baha'u'llah weren't there and now you tell them to move on. So I don't see how that is not what you are saying, what exactly did the achieve the last 2000+ years before the revelation of Baha'u'llah?

Baha’u’llah wrote a lot about the God that revealed Himself to Baha’u’llah. Most of the book entitled Gleanings is about God.

And is it your impression that this is God of the bible or not?

What is flawed about my methods?

If a person tells you that they saw a UFO and even took a picture of it and show it to you, is that evidence that UFOs are real? and is it evidence for him telling the truth?
.

How do you know I have not questioned my beliefs? I have questioned them for years and years, but I always end up believing them.

And that is fine, don't get me wrong. You believing it is perfect, but to be able to claim it as being truth and not faith requires evidence and that is my only point.

I am sorry, I do not agree that the purpose of like is to achieve personal happiness, so maybe that is where atheists part ways with believers.

Why would you not thrive towards personal happiness? What other goal is there? if a person run around living a unhappy and sad life, what else could be more important than trying to achieve personal happiness. I mean what is the purpose of doing anything, if it hurts or prevent a person from being happy?

No, evidence does not lead to proof, because there is no way to prove God exists or that anyone is a Messenger of God, for obvious reasons. If God cannot ever be proven to exist, how can ot be proven that God spoke to a Messenger? Think.

If you have enough evidence that all point to the same conclusion then we refer to that as a proof. Like in a murder case, they will try to gather enough evidence to proof that the suspect is guilty or not guilty. If evidence did not lead to proof, we shouldn't convict anyone at all, because then it would just be guessing. The reason it doesn't lead to a proof for God, is because no one even know if God exists, what one is suppose to look like, capable of etc. Therefore we have no evidence, but merely claims. The bible and all the scriptures in the world are not evidence for a God, but merely a collection of claims

I can go along with that. Murder is usually wrong, but there can be exceptions. Do you also think that sometimes rape and adultery are not wrong.

For me personally I think they are wrong. But then again I believe these to be subjective, because we can look back at history and see how people back then lived. For instance its not really that many years ago in Denmark where I lived, where it was considered ok to hit your children, like the teacher their students etc. but if you do it today you get thrown to jail. Also its only a few years ago that Russia allowed men to beat their wives as far as I remember or that you at least do not get punished for it. You have evidence from ancient cultures of human sacrificing etc. So you can find all these things, just try to do a search for old torture devices and you can find some really crazy stuff. Some Islamic countries it is perfectly legal to marry children, so all this is going on now and back them. So for some people these things are not ok and for others they are fine, it depends who you ask.

It does not assume that God exists, it is hypothetical. If God exists, do you think that God could have created a world without suffering and if so what would it look like?

Yes of course he could, that is what he promise heaven is like for those that believe in that. Its a new world with no suffering and pain.

 

[Trailblazer]

What He was like as a person (His character)
What a person is like is not evidence for anything.

It is evidence that He had a good character.
That does not prove he was telling the truth about being a Messenger of God, but it is an indication.

What He did during His mission on earth;
That he spend a lot of time spreading his teachings and religion, is no different than any other highly dedicated religious person. And again its not evidence for anything.

That is not what Baha’u’llah did on His Mission. He only garnered a few followers and they were responsible to teach the religion. What He did was suffer and sacrifice His Life for the Cause of God and write thousands and thousands of Tablets. He also led the religion of the Babis that would later become the Baha’i Faith and he wrote a binding Covenant.

The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward
Him having a goal to unite religions or make it so they can live together under his teachings are not evidence for anything, just a person with a plan as everyone else that, think they know the truth. There have been countless of people with ideas for how to change the world both religious and none religious.

Ideas do not accomplish anything. Nobody else has an actual plan to unite humanity that is being carried out as the Baha’is do.

The scriptures that were attributed to Him or scriptures that He wrote;
Makes absolutely no difference what he wrote or what was writing about it. Unless his scriptures and prophecies, miracles etc. without a shadow of a doubt can be shown to have divine inspiration or other supernatural meaning that relate to a God. Then this is not evidence for anything.

There is no way that could ever be proven, for obvious reasons, since you would have to prove God exists in order to prove divine inspiration. It cannot be proven but proof is not what makes anything the truth. It is not evidence for you but that does not mean it is not evidence. It is evidence to other people who can see it as the Word of God.

What others have written about Him;
Doesn't matter what anyone wrote about him, people wrote about Jesus and Muhammed, it doesn't make any of it true or more likely to be true.

I never said that makes it true. It is just one small part of the evidence that indicates it might be true.

The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,
People claim that prophecies in the bible are constantly shown as evidence for their believes, you just claim the bible talks about Baha'u'llah, but his name is not written in the bible and there is nothing in it about accepting or unifying religions and I also doubt you will find any of that in the Quran.

The name Baha’u’llah means the Glory of God, and it is all throughout the Bible.

It does not matter what people claim. Only Baha’u’llah actually fulfilled the prophecies.
That was demonstrated in Thief in the Night by William Sears.

Unifying religions was in the Bible but even if it wasn’t, that would not disprove Baha’u’llah since the Revelation of Baha’u’llah was a whole new Revelation with a whole new message.

Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

What this means to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.

Clearly, Jesus did not fulfill these prophecies. This is the fulfillment of what Jesus promised to do when He returned.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
Without knowing for sure, my guess is that these follow along the lines of those found in the bible. Unspecific writings that can be applied to lots of people, depending on how you read them.

Since you never read Thief in the Night you cannot say that these prophecies can be applied to a lot of people.

The predictions He made that have come to pass;
Again these predictions are so weak and unspecific, that it would be like me making a prediction now "A mighty nation will fall and its people suffer. But from the dust a new nation will be born." Im pretty sure that will come to past at some point.

You speak from ignorance. How do you know they are weak and specific, are you just guessing? You should not make claims you cannot support. I support my claims:

Not only did Baha’u’llah know things He did not learn in any school, He also predicted many things that later came to pass. Here is a list of 30 specific things Baha’u’llah knew and things He predicted that later came to pass: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

The religion that He established (followers), what they have done and are doing now.
Not evidence for anything, JW, Scientology, Christianity, Islam etc. have all done this before the Bahai. Its only evidence that people believe in things not evidence for it being true.

It is PART of the evidence. Of course Islam and Christianity established their religions before Baha’i, they were around for hundreds of years before Baha’i came along (2000 years and 1400 years vs. 155 years). JW is a sect of Christianity. How many countries do you think Scientology has spread to? How big do you think it is? It is declining and the Baha’i Faith is steadily growing, second only to Islam in its growth rate. Show me another religion like Baha’i other than Christianity that is located in 250 countries around the world, and it did not take 2000 years.

So all in all these are merely claims.

No, that is all the evidence that supports the claims.

The Bahai world centre were build in 1909, how does that proof anything?

It was the fulfillment of many of the prophecies in the OT.

Looked through these rather fast as it would take a long time to go through all of them, so won't do that. But from those I could see, these are not evidence either, from what I can see, but merely someone giving his view on varies text found in scriptures and what he believes that they mean. There is nothing different about this, than what every other religious person does, when they go through whatever and say "See this point to this and that". As long as these are not specifics how do you decide who is right and who is wrong?

I do not know about these other religions’ prophecies, I only know about the Bible prophecies, and they are very specific. Taken together, they could not refer to anyone other than Baha’u’llah.

"Prophecy 2: The defeat of Germany in two bloody wars, resulting in the 'lamentations of Berlin'."
This is one of them. What Baha'u'llah wrote:

O King of Berlin!... Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power [Napoleon III], and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He

44 THE CHALLENGE OF BAHA'U'LLAH

it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves. Be warned, be of them who reflect. 63

Baha'u'llah then painted this amazing word-picture of a Germany broken and bleeding in the wake of two successive armed conflicts:

O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And we hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory. 64

I really don't see why you think that is a good prediction, one of the biggest countries in Europe and there are no dates and it doesn't say anything about two times. Im sorry, but to me that prediction is as good as mine above.

Baha’u’llah did not write these Tablets to the kings and rulers in order to make predictions. They were simply warnings he predicted that came true. They were not intended to be proof that He was a Messenger/Prophet of God.

It does say something about two times (another turn). In 1870, there was no reason to think there would be two great world wars centered in Germany:

“O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 39

No its not evidence for anything other than more than one people people it. A lot of people believe in alien visitations to Earth it doesn't make it more valid unless we have actual testable evidence. People claiming to have seen these and having blurry images, videos and one believing their friend simply is not evidence worth anything, if they can't be verified in any way. They are simply claims and you may or may not believe them, but its doesn't add anything to the validity and since it doesn't do that, it can't be evidence for anything.

It is not evidence to YOU, but it is evidence to many people. There is no such thing as testable evidence for a Messenger of God. Religion is not science.

 

[Trailblazer]

I looked at some of the "evidence" and again I see nothing valid here except some claims.

Whatever… We all view things differently so one person’s evidence is another person’s lack of evidence.

So their is only Baha'u'llah's account that he had a revelation while in prison, im sorry but that doesn't really help anything. Which tells us nothing about whether his revelation is true or not and then finally his writings. Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against him or Bahai, but in regards to seeking truth and what to believe and not. I just don't see any of this as evidence for anything.

His revelation FIRST came to Him in the Black Pit Prison in 1852, but He had many more revelations from God after that, for 40 years.

Of course that does not tell you if it’s true or not, everyone needs to assess that and decide for themselves. How do you think something like this COULD be proven, hypothetically speaking?

Maybe not for all of humanity, well if you are Christian the bible does and in you are a Muslim it also teaches you how to behave. But they have the same problem as the Bahai does, because if everyone were Christian or Muslim then everything would be great as people could live according to whatever rules those that decide what means come up with. So there are not really any difference here. Remember that God did give the Jews laws and told them how to behave etc as well.

I meant that Christianity and Islam have no plans laid out to redeem the human race and build the Kingdom of God on earth. THAT is the difference between them and the Baha’i Faith, which does have plans to follow to get to a particular goal.

That is what I mean, they pretty much wasted 2000+ years wasting time and causing confusion, because Baha'u'llah weren't there and now you tell them to move on. So I don't see how that is not what you are saying, what exactly did they achieve the last 2000+ years before the revelation of Baha'u'llah?

Moses' primary achievement was the championing the belief in one All-Powerful, All-Knowing and All-Wise God as opposed to many gods people had believed in before that. Christianity and Islam achieved a lot of other things.

Jesus Christ
“The Revelation associated with the Faith of Jesus Christ focused attention primarily on the redemption of the individual and the molding of his conduct, and stressed, as its central theme, the necessity of inculcating a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find any reference to the unity of nations or the unification of mankind as a whole. When Jesus spoke to those around Him, He addressed them primarily as individuals rather than as component parts of one universal, indivisible entity.......

Muhammad....
The Faith of Islám, the succeeding link in the chain of Divine Revelation, introduced, as Bahá’u’lláh Himself testifies, the conception of the nation as a unit and a vital stage in the organization of human society, and embodied it in its teaching. This indeed is what is meant by this brief yet highly significant and illuminating pronouncement of Bahá’u’lláh: “Of old [Islamic Dispensation] it hath been revealed: ‘Love of one’s country is an element of the Faith of God.’” This principle was established and stressed by the Apostle of God, inasmuch as the evolution of human society required it at that time. Nor could any stage above and beyond it have been envisaged, as world conditions preliminary to the establishment of a superior form of organization were as yet unobtainable. The conception of nationality, the attainment to the state of nationhood, may, therefore, be said to be the distinguishing characteristics of the MuHammadan Dispensation, in the course of which the nations and races of the world, and particularly in Europe and America, were unified and achieved political independence.....

Baha’u’llah...
“One of the great events,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has, in His “Some Answered Questions,” affirmed, “which is to occur in the Day of the manifestation of that Incomparable Branch [Bahá’u’lláh] is the hoisting of the Standard of God among all nations. By this is meant that all nations and kindreds will be gathered together under the shadow of this Divine Banner, which is no other than the Lordly Branch itself, and will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.”
The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 119-121

And is it your impression that this is God of the bible or not?

Absolutely.

If a person tells you that they saw a UFO and even took a picture of it and show it to you, is that evidence that UFOs are real? and is it evidence for him telling the truth?

Are you implying that I believe Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God just because somebody else told me that?

And that is fine, don't get me wrong. You believing it is perfect, but to be able to claim it as being truth and not faith requires evidence and that is my only point.

You kind of put me in a bind because I cannot provide any evidence other than what I have. You want evidence that no religion can have, something that science would have.

Why would you not thrive towards personal happiness? What other goal is there? if a person run around living a unhappy and sad life, what else could be more important than trying to achieve personal happiness. I mean what is the purpose of doing anything, if it hurts or prevent a person from being happy?

Finding meaning in life and fulfilling the purpose of my life is more important than personal happiness. Helping others is more important than personal happiness. I cannot even think of being happy when other people are in need or they are suffering.

Of course, I believe in an afterlife so my whole perspective is different from yours. I believe this life is preparation for an afterlife. I sought personal happiness when I was younger and I was never truly happy. I am happier now even though I have to sacrifice all my time for all the work I have to do for God and other people.

If you have enough evidence that all point to the same conclusion then we refer to that as a proof. Like in a murder case, they will try to gather enough evidence to proof that the suspect is guilty or not guilty. If evidence did not lead to proof, we shouldn't convict anyone at all, because then it would just be guessing. The reason it doesn't lead to a proof for God, is because no one even know if God exists, what one is suppose to look like, capable of etc. Therefore we have no evidence, but merely claims. The bible and all the scriptures in the world are not evidence for a God, but merely a collection of claims.

You are comparing something completely different. Whether someone committed a murder or not is an objective fact so the evidence can lead to proof. No religion can be proven that way, even though it might actually be the truth from God.

You are right that the reason it doesn't lead to a proof for God is because no one can even know if God exists, what God is supposed to look like, be capable of. But we do know about a murderer. Do you understand the difference?

The Bible and all the scriptures in the world are evidence for a God in the sense that they indicate that God might exist, but they do not prove it. The scriptures are not claims because they do not claim anything, although the Messengers made some claims in them.

For me personally I think they are wrong. But then again I believe these to be subjective, because we can look back at history and see how people back then lived. For instance its not really that many years ago in Denmark where I lived, where it was considered ok to hit your children, like the teacher their students etc. but if you do it today you get thrown to jail. Also its only a few years ago that Russia allowed men to beat their wives as far as I remember or that you at least do not get punished for it. You have evidence from ancient cultures of human sacrificing etc. So you can find all these things, just try to do a search for old torture devices and you can find some really crazy stuff. Some Islamic countries it is perfectly legal to marry children, so all this is going on now and back them. So for some people these things are not ok and for others they are fine, it depends who you ask.

So do you think all these practices were okay just because they were socially acceptable back in history?

Yes of course he could, that is what he promise heaven is like for those that believe in that. Its a new world with no suffering and pain.

But a material world cannot exist without suffering because suffering is inherent in a material world; accidents and injuries and disease happen to the body and people have to struggle to make a living, stuff like that. And worst of all, people and animals die, leaving people behind to suffer. One of my best forum friends lost his 20 year old cat last night and he is suffering. I am also suffering because he is suffering. I do not like God right now because He created this world of suffering and death. I would ditch God in a heartbeat if I was not sure He existed. But I am too afraid what could happen if I ditched Him. So God really has me over a barrel.

Of course there are things I do not know, reasons why there is suffering and death, but I still think God is cruel because I won’t know what those reasons are until after I die. What good will it do me then, when the suffering s finally over?

 

[Nimos]

It is evidence that He had a good character.
That does not prove he was telling the truth about being a Messenger of God, but it is an indication.

No its not an indication of anything other than he might have been a good person, nothing else.

That is not what Baha’u’llah did on His Mission. He only garnered a few followers and they were responsible to teach the religion. What He did was suffer and sacrifice His Life for the Cause of God and write thousands and thousands of Tablets. He also led the religion of the Babis that would later become the Baha’i Faith and he wrote a binding Covenant.

But according to the history of him, he took over from someone else. So what do you mean he gathered a few followers weren't they already there?

Ideas do not accomplish anything. Nobody else has an actual plan to unite humanity that is being carried out as the Baha’is do.

No, but the Bahai's seems to have been just as effective as JWs have etc. Lots of people have ideas of wanting to unite humanity, yet none have been able to. So the Bahai ideas as noble as one might think it is, just as others that a trying to achieve the same, is not more effective than they are.

There is no way that could ever be proven, for obvious reasons, since you would have to prove God exists in order to prove divine inspiration. It cannot be proven but proof is not what makes anything the truth. It is not evidence for you but that does not mean it is not evidence. It is evidence to other people who can see it as the Word of God.

We can't work with different types of evidence, again imagine in a courtroom if evidence were what the each individual thought they should be, it would be complete chaos with people getting convicted or set free at complete random. That is not how it works.

I never said that makes it true. It is just one small part of the evidence that indicates it might be true.

Yes it might indicate something or it might not. But we are not talking about a person claiming to own a cat, but that he is a messenger of God. Therefore the evidence to backup such claim need to be extremely good, even for someone to consider them indications.

Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

What this means to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.

But this is not what the vers is about, its taken out of contexts. It refers to Israel and how God will save them from the Assyrians and Egyptians and bring them all back, and that they have to endure a little longer. Its not about different religions or races coming together. You have to read further back, than simply picking out a verse in the middle of a story. Isaiah is probably the most confusing scripture written. But if you read Chapter 1 the very beginning:

1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Its visions about Judah and Jerusalem and not as many people do, just take out verse left right and centre and say they mean all kinds of things.

You speak from ignorance. How do you know they are weak and specific, are you just guessing? You should not make claims you cannot support. I support my claims:

Not only did Baha’u’llah know things He did not learn in any school, He also predicted many things that later came to pass. Here is a list of 30 specific things Baha’u’llah knew and things He predicted that later came to pass: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

Because I read some of them and as I said they are unspecific, which makes it possible to interpret them in varies ways. For instance about the fall of Germany two times. It doesn't say anything specific about that.

It is PART of the evidence. Of course Islam and Christianity established their religions before Baha’i, they were around for hundreds of years before Baha’i came along (2000 years and 1400 years vs. 155 years). JW is a sect of Christianity. How many countries do you think Scientology has spread to? How big do you think it is? It is declining and the Baha’i Faith is steadily growing, second only to Islam in its growth rate. Show me another religion like Baha’i other than Christianity that is located in 250 countries around the world, and it did not take 2000 years.

No its not part of the evidence, its like saying that Christianity is more likely to be true because there are more people that believe in it. That is not how rationality works.

Continue..

 

[Nimos]

It was the fulfillment of many of the prophecies in the OT.

Yes, but if someone went an read in the Bible, that a cross needed to be raised in the centre of Berlin and then someone did it. And then announced that it proofs that the Bible is correct. That would be nonsense wouldn't you agree? Its not a prophecies to do something like that.

I do not know about these other religions’ prophecies, I only know about the Bible prophecies, and they are very specific. Taken together, they could not refer to anyone other than Baha’u’llah.

Christian preachers and evangelists refers to scriptures in the bible constantly of how perfect it all fits with real life and that this proof Jesus as being the son of God, or that God is real etc. There is nothing difference about what this guy is doing who wrote this.

Baha’u’llah did not write these Tablets to the kings and rulers in order to make predictions. They were simply warnings he predicted that came true. They were not intended to be proof that He was a Messenger/Prophet of God.

But if he didn't write them, why do you say he made the predictions, not really sure I follow you?

It is not evidence to YOU, but it is evidence to many people. There is no such thing as testable evidence for a Messenger of God. Religion is not science.

No but as mentioned above. Evidence is evidence. Ten people saying they believe Jesus is living on Earth today, is not evidence or even remotely close to be evidence for it being more likely to be true. That is why evidence needs to be consistences or people will run around claiming things they want to be believe as being evidence.

I meant that Christianity and Islam have no plans laid out to redeem the human race and build the Kingdom of God on earth. THAT is the difference between them and the Baha’i Faith, which does have plans to follow to get to a particular goal.

Of course they do, everyone should be a Christian and live according to the teachings of Jesus/Paul/Church or everyone should be a Muslim and follow the teaching of the Quran and those that decide what it means.

Moses' primary achievement was the championing the belief in one All-Powerful, All-Knowing and All-Wise God as opposed to many gods people had believed in before that. Christianity and Islam achieved a lot of other things.

But it doesn't make sense why he would write a book as thick as the bible and then someone follow it up with the Quran to teach this, when people still don't agree and people have very different views of what this God is and is not and what he can do. We have already shared views on this in regards to him being omniscient, all good, omnipotent and yet none of us know what he can do or not do. Or if its even true.

Are you implying that I believe Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God just because somebody else told me that?

No, im trying to figure out what your understanding of claim vs evidence are.

Finding meaning in life and fulfilling the purpose of my life is more important than personal happiness. Helping others is more important than personal happiness. I cannot even think of being happy when other people are in need or they are suffering.

And doing these things doesn't make you happy?

You are comparing something completely different. Whether someone committed a murder or not is an objective fact so the evidence can lead to proof. No religion can be proven that way, even though it might actually be the truth from God.

You are right that the reason it doesn't lead to a proof for God is because no one can even know if God exists, what God is supposed to look like, be capable of. But we do know about a murderer. Do you understand the difference?

Yes, but im not talking about the murder it self. Im talking about a potential person that might be the murder or not, where no one have seem them actually committing it. So what the police will do is gather evidence, and if they can't find anything that links this person to the scene they won't be found guilty, it doesn't however mean that the person didn't do it. Which is the same with God, we look for evidence for his existence and we find none. Therefore the most likely explanation is that he doesn't exists, but it doesn't proof that he doesn't. It just makes it the most rational position to take due to the lack of evidence.

So do you think all these practices were okay just because they were socially acceptable back in history?

No not to me, but for those living back then. I would assume that most of them agreed that this was good. And slowly over time as they got more knowledge figured out that what they were doing were not working or helping and that there were other more rational ways to explain why the rain wouldn't come, and that sacrificing humans to please the God had little effect or whatever they did based on what they believed. So you can't look at these things from a personal point of view, because things were different. Lets look at modern society and us throwing people in jail, death penalty etc. Imagine in 100 years with a lot more knowledge and some bright people figuring out, that putting people in jail is not the way to do it. You have to prevent them making crimes in the first place and through the "Theory of psycho no crime method" you can prevent this by talking to children at the age of 5 or something. Lets assume that something like that is possible, since we don't know about it now. It is not an option, therefore to us throwing people in jail etc. is currently what we believe to be the best solution and see nothing especially wrong with it. So does that make sense? What seems humane and good to us, is not necessarily seen as such in 100 years.

But a material world cannot exist without suffering because suffering is inherent in a material world; accidents and injuries and disease happen to the body and people have to struggle to make a living, stuff like that. And worst of all, people and animals die, leaving people behind to suffer.

I don't think the bible specify exactly what a new Earth is like, but to me the most likely description is basically like earth with animals etc. But just where there are no suffering. So I don't think you are correct that suffering is needed if God exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

No its not an indication of anything other than he might have been a good person, nothing else.

I agree that by itself, it is not indication of anything other than he might have been a good person.

But according to the history of him, he took over from someone else. So what do you mean he gathered a few followers weren't they already there?

That’s true, Baha’u’llah took over for the Bab and the Babis followed Him.

No, but the Bahai's seems to have been just as effective as JWs have etc. Lots of people have ideas of wanting to unite humanity, yet none have been able to. So the Bahai ideas as noble as one might think it is, just as others that a trying to achieve the same, is not more effective than they are.

What other religions do you think are trying to unite ALL of humanity? The JWs and other Christians are not trying to do that, nor are the Jews or Muslims or Buddhists or Hindus. All of them believe they are ‘the only way’ and that their religion will reign supreme when the Messiah comes. Baha’is by contrast want everyone to be winners. Baha’u’llah came to save all of humanity, not just those who choose to become Baha’is.

In the following quotes, Him Who is the Eternal Truth is God.

“Every unbiased observer will readily admit that, ever since the dawn of His Revelation, this wronged One hath invited all mankind to turn their faces towards the Day Spring of Glory, and hath forbidden corruption, hatred, oppression, and wickedness. And yet, behold what the hand of the oppressor hath wrought! No pen dare describe his tyranny. Though the purpose of Him Who is the Eternal Truth hath been to confer everlasting life upon all men, and ensure their security and peace, yet witness how they have arisen to shed the blood of His loved ones, and have pronounced on Him the sentence of death.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 115-116

“Wert thou to consider, for but a little while, the outward works and doings of Him Who is the Eternal Truth, thou wouldst fall down upon the ground, and exclaim: O Thou Who art the Lord of Lords! I testify that Thou art the Lord of all creation, and the Educator of all beings, visible and invisible. I bear witness that Thy power hath encompassed the entire universe, and that the hosts of the earth can never dismay Thee, nor can the dominion of all peoples and nations deter Thee from executing Thy purpose. I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 243

We can't work with different types of evidence, again imagine in a courtroom if evidence were what the each individual thought they should be, it would be complete chaos with people getting convicted or set free at complete random. That is not how it works.

There are different kinds of evidence within the categories that I have listed. Within each category there is a lot for people to examine, just like all the evidence there would be if a crime had been committed. Just like certain evidence is the best evidence that a crime has been committed, forensic evidence such as DNA, Baha’u’llah told us what is the best evidence of His truth.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

Yes it might indicate something or it might not. But we are not talking about a person claiming to own a cat, but that he is a messenger of God. Therefore the evidence to back up such claim need to be extremely good, even for someone to consider them indications.

I surely agree with that. Imo, it is the preponderance of evidence that makes the Baha’i Faith irrefutable.

But this is not what the verse is about, its taken out of contexts. It refers to Israel and how God will save them from the Assyrians and Egyptians and bring them all back, and that they have to endure a little longer. Its not about different religions or races coming together. You have to read further back, than simply picking out a verse in the middle of a story. Isaiah is probably the most confusing scripture written. But if you read Chapter 1 the very beginning:

That is just how you interpret the scriptures. Jews and Christians will interpret them differently, and not all of them will agree among themselves. The advantage Baha’is have is that we know what Baha’u’llah revealed about the future, and this verse is a prediction of that. Everyone else is shooting in the dark, trying to figure out what these verses mean. Knowing what we know about world unity, they are obviously a prediction of world unity, when all humans will be friends and companions and live in harmony with one another.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated......

The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Whoknoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

“for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord” means that everyone will have knowledge of Baha’u’llah, who was the Lord of Hosts. As a result of this knowledge, everyone will really believe in God, not just pay lip service to their religions as they do now. This prophecy will be fulfilled after everyone has come to recognize Baha’u’llah. Until then, people will continue flail around, like lost sheep...

Isaiah 11:9 fits together perfectly with what the Bab wrote:

“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God,worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154

Because I read some of them and as I said they are unspecific, which makes it possible to interpret them in varies ways. For instance about the fall of Germany two times. It doesn't say anything specific about that.

So what? Baha’u’llah was not trying to prove He was a Prophet by making predictions. The purpose of what He wrote was to warn the kings and rulers of what He saw in the future if they did not heed His call. None of those 30 predictions were what Bahaullah told us to look at as evidence of His claim. That evidence He told us to look at is in that passage above.

No its not part of the evidence, its like saying that Christianity is more likely to be true because there are more people that believe in it. That is not how rationality works.

The number of adherents to a religion, be it many or few, is not evidence that it is true, but the fact that it continues to grow steadily over time rather than fizzling out indicates there is something to it, because all true religions have followed this pattern.

You totally missed my point about how fast the Baha’i Faith spread and how many countries it is located in, compared to other religions. The obvious reason the older religions are larger is because of the passage of time. That is what any rational person would realize. Religion involves humans and they do not change their beliefs as fast as putting on a pair of shoes.

“When Christ appeared He manifested Himself at Jerusalem. He called men to the Kingdom of God, He invited them to Eternal Life and He told them to acquire human perfections. The Light of Guidance was shed forth by that radiant Star, and He at length gave His life in sacrifice for humanity.

All through His blessed life He suffered oppression and hardship, and in spite of all this humanity was His enemy!

They denied Him, scorned Him, ill-treated Him and cursed Him. He was not treated like a man—and yet in spite of all this He was the embodiment of pity and of supreme goodness and love……..

It was not until many years after His ascension that they knew who He was, and at the time of His ascension He had only a very few disciples; only a comparatively small following believed His precepts and followed His laws. The ignorant said, ‘Who is this individual; He has only a few disciples!’ But those who knew said: ‘He is the Sun who will shine in the East and in the West, He is the Manifestation who shall give life to the world’.

What the first disciples had seen the world realized later.” Paris Talks, pp, 116-117

History repeats itself. What the Baha’is know now, the world will realize later. You can get in on the ground floor, or wait till the building is built.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, but if someone went and read in the Bible, that a cross needed to be raised in the centre of Berlin and then someone did it. And then announced that it proofs that the Bible is correct. That would be nonsense wouldn't you agree? Its not a prophecies to do something like that.

I would agree that if a claimant to be a Prophet/Messenger did something that was in a Bible prophecy in order to fulfill the prophecy that would be nonsense, but what came to pass as the result of the coming of Baha’u’llah was not under His control. How was this prophecy under the control of Baha’u’llah? There are many more like it.

Micah 7:12 “In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.”

He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.

and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

Christian preachers and evangelists refers to scriptures in the bible constantly of how perfect it all fits with real life and that this proof Jesus as being the son of God, or that God is real etc. There is nothing difference about what this guy is doing who wrote this.

Some of the prophecies in the OT for the first coming of Christ do fit Jesus but the prophecies for the second coming (the Messiah the Jews have been waiting for) do not fit Jesus, and nobody can make them fit. However, they fit Baha’u’llah to a tee.

You say that there is nothing different and that is the fallacy of jumping to conclusions unless you have read the book. Atheists make hasty generalizations and jump to conclusions about the Baha’i Faith continuously, assuming it is just like all the older religions.

But if he didn't write them, why do you say he made the predictions, not really sure I follow you?

He did write them and they came to pass so in that sense they are predictions. However, His intention was not to predict the future, but rather to warn the kings and rulers what would happen if they rejected Him.

No but as mentioned above. Evidence is evidence. Ten people saying they believe Jesus is living on Earth today, is not evidence or even remotely close to be evidence for it being more likely to be true. That is why evidence needs to be consistences or people will run around claiming things they want to be believe as being evidence.

What people believe is not evidence. Evidence is what actually happened. The evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God are His character, His Revelation, and His Writings. All these can be researched and read about.

Of course they do, everyone should be a Christian and live according to the teachings of Jesus/Paul/Church or everyone should be a Muslim and follow the teaching of the Quran and those that decide what it means.

That does not constitute a plan, and they have no instructions for building the Kingdom of God (New World Order) on Earth. Only Baha’u’llah had a written plan:
The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh

But it doesn't make sense why he would write a book as thick as the bible and then someone follow it up with the Quran to teach this, when people still don't agree and people have very different views of what this God is and is not and what he can do. We have already shared views on this in regards to him being omniscient, all good, omnipotent and yet none of us know what he can do or not do. Or if its even true.

God reveals truth progressively over time and one reason a new religion has to be revealed in every new age is because corrupt humans misinterpret the scriptures.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

One reason Baha’u’llah came was to get everyone on the same page so but if most people cling to their older religions and reject Baha’u’llah, how can He get everyone on the same page? The different views of God will continue until people recognize Baha’u’llah.

No, im trying to figure out what your understanding of claim vs evidence are.

A claim is who someone claims to be and evidence is what supports that claim and indicates if the claim is a true claim or a false claim.

And doing these things doesn't make you happy?

It does make me spiritually happy, but I have to put aside any kind of material happiness because I do not have time for both.

Yes, but im not talking about the murder it self. Im talking about a potential person that might be the murder or not, where no one have seem them actually committing it. So what the police will do is gather evidence, and if they can't find anything that links this person to the scene they won't be found guilty, it doesn't however mean that the person didn't do it. Which is the same with God, we look for evidence for his existence and we find none. Therefore the most likely explanation is that he doesn't exists, but it doesn't proof that he doesn't. It just makes it the most rational position to take due to the lack of evidence.

The problem is that you expect to find a certain KIND of evidence and that kind of evidence does not exist because God does not provide it. The Messengers and scriptures are the evidence God has provided. Atheists simply do not accept that but most people do and that is why most people are believers.

No not to me, but for those living back then. I would assume that most of them agreed that this was good. And slowly over time as they got more knowledge figured out that what they were doing were not working or helping and that there were other more rational ways to explain why the rain wouldn't come, and that sacrificing humans to please the God had little effect or whatever they did based on what they believed. So you can't look at these things from a personal point of view, because things were different. Lets look at modern society and us throwing people in jail, death penalty etc. Imagine in 100 years with a lot more knowledge and some bright people figuring out, that putting people in jail is not the way to do it. You have to prevent them making crimes in the first place and through the "Theory of psycho no crime method" you can prevent this by talking to children at the age of 5 or something. Lets assume that something like that is possible, since we don't know about it now. It is not an option, therefore to us throwing people in jail etc. is currently what we believe to be the best solution and see nothing especially wrong with it. So does that make sense? What seems humane and good to us, is not necessarily seen as such in 100 years.

You just described how human society progresses over time, which is the reason why God uses progressive revelation.

I don't think the bible specify exactly what a new Earth is like, but to me the most likely description is basically like earth with animals etc. But just where there are no suffering. So I don't think you are correct that suffering is needed if God exists.

Are you talking about what Christians believe, that Jesus will return and create a new Earth like the Garden of Eden? That is a complete fantasy. The new Earth is the Kingdom of God that humans will build by following the blueprint instructions of Baha’u’llah.

The material world causes suffering because suffering is inherent in a material world; diseases, accidents, injuries, natural disasters, struggling to make a living, etc. There will be no more suffering in heaven because it is a spiritual world.

 

[Nimos]

What other religions do you think are trying to unite ALL of humanity?

None of them, the closes you get is that they tolerate each other and with good reason. They don't believe in what you do. They believe that their religion is true and all others are false, therefore there is no reason to and makes little sense for them wanting to unite all of humanity through accepting all religions as being equal or true. Either you convert to Christianity, Islam or whatever religion one might have, because that is the true one depending on what you believe. Why would they encourage other to believe in some false God that they do not believe in? That is why I say they tolerate each other and can accept that the "others" just haven't discovered the truth yet. Its exactly the same as you are doing, as you think that people would be much better off if they would just accept Bahai teachings and the words of Baha'u'llah, because you know that they are true.

That is just how you interpret the scriptures. Jews and Christians will interpret them differently, and not all of them will agree among themselves.

But I think your interpretation is just way off, it doesn't even follow the story. To summarize the story:

---------------
Isaiah 8:1
1 The Lord said to me, “Take a large scroll and write on it with an ordinary pen: Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz.”[a]
2 So I called in Uriah the priest and Zechariah son of Jeberekiah as reliable witnesses for me.
3 Then I made love to the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. And the Lord said to me, “Name him Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz.
4 For before the boy knows how to say ‘My father’ or ‘My mother,’ the wealth of Damascus and the plunder of Samaria will be carried off by the king of Assyria.”

So this is where the story seems to start, the next part is quite important.

5 The Lord spoke to me again:
6 “Because this people has rejected
the gently flowing waters of Shiloah
and rejoices over Rezin
and the son of Remaliah,
7 therefore the Lord is about to bring against them
the mighty floodwaters of the Euphrates—
the king of Assyria with all his pomp.
It will overflow all its channels,
run over all its banks

Shiloah is a river running in Jerusalem and is still there. So what these verses say is that God is angry at the Jews, for whatever, and therefore will bring punishment at them in the form of floodwater and the King of the Assyria mentioned just above.

14 He will be a holy place;
for both Israel and Judah he will be
a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.
And for the people of Jerusalem he will be
a trap and a snare.
15 Many of them will stumble;
they will fall and be broken,
they will be snared and captured.”

Again it is pointed out that God is upset with those in Jerusalem

19 When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?
20 Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.
21 Distressed and hungry, they will roam through the land; when they are famished, they will become enraged and, looking upward, will curse their king and their God.
22 Then they will look toward the earth and see only distress and darkness and fearful gloom, and they will be thrust into utter darkness.

So people should do as God say and not consult mediums and spiritists as they don't talk the truth as far as I understand it. And people will then suffer and curse God and the King for it but find no help or hope.

Isaiah 9:1
1[a]Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the nations, by the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan—

However this will not last forever.
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

This is from what I understand the promise of the Messiah, that will free or save Jerusalem and Israel. And he will reign on David throne and bring Justice etc.

13 But the people have not returned to him who struck them,
nor have they sought the Lord Almighty.
14 So the Lord will cut off from Israel both head and tail,
both palm branch and reed in a single day;
15 the elders and dignitaries are the head,
the prophets who teach lies are the tail.
16 Those who guide this people mislead them,
and those who are guided are led astray.
17 Therefore the Lord will take no pleasure in the young men,
nor will he pity the fatherless and widows,
for everyone is ungodly and wicked,
every mouth speaks folly.

However God is still angry at them because they do not do as he want them to and because they are still spreading lies.

Isaiah 10:12
12 When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, “I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes.

So God gets angry at the king of Assyria, because of greed and him not doing what God wanted him to. So he has to go as well.

20 In that day the remnant of Israel,
the survivors of Jacob,
will no longer rely on him
who struck them down
but will truly rely on the Lord,
the Holy One of Israel.

And after that is done, the people of Israel, those that remains will turn back to to God.

24 Therefore this is what the Lord, the Lord Almighty, says:
“My people who live in Zion,
do not be afraid of the Assyrians,
who beat you with a rod
and lift up a club against you, as Egypt did.
25 Very soon my anger against you will end
and my wrath will be directed to their destruction.”

This is slightly confusing, because it seems that God used the Assyrian king to beat some sense in the Jews that wouldn't follow him and therefore assures those that were loyal to him, to hold on a bit longer.

And then you get to Isaiah 11, where he basically tells about all the good things that will happen once all of this have been done.
---------------
So you see this relate to the Messiah (As far as I get it) That will save them from being mislead by false prophets and from the Assyrians. Its not about bring together all religions or to unity humanity. Its about God and the Jews and Jerusalem. And the one that is going to do it is the one mentioned above that will sit on David thrones and not Baha'u'llah. The God of the OT couldn't care less about other religions and other people than he do. He cares about the Jews and the Israelite's. Its first with Christianity and especially Paul that people start to believe that God cares for them as well, as I see it

Continue..

 

[Nimos]

The number of adherents to a religion, be it many or few, is not evidence that it is true, but the fact that it continues to grow steadily over time rather than fizzling out indicates there is something to it, because all true religions have followed this pattern.

Im sorry but it doesn't, it could indicate that more people feel attracted to it, because it pictures God more humane than others does. Do you know what religion those that join you tend to have before hand?

Some of the prophecies in the OT for the first coming of Christ do fit Jesus but the prophecies for the second coming (the Messiah the Jews have been waiting for) do not fit Jesus, and nobody can make them fit. However, they fit Baha’u’llah to a tee.

You say that there is nothing different and that is the fallacy of jumping to conclusions unless you have read the book. Atheists make hasty generalizations and jump to conclusions about the Baha’i Faith continuously, assuming it is just like all the older religions.

Personally I don't think any of them fits Jesus. There might be some verses that does, but there are just as many that doesn't. I think the reason atheist appears to do it, is because we are skeptic about it. As I said we have heard a lot of these claims before and yet see no evidence. Just from reading your replies its quite obvious that we look at evidence differently, where you see some I don't and vice versa.

What people believe is not evidence. Evidence is what actually happened.

Evidence doesn't necessarily tell what happened, its just indications of what is most likely to be true. For instance a knife might be found at a crime scene with the blood of both the victim and the murderer on it, however it only indicate that the knife was most likely used, but what exactly happen with it, is not known for sure at this point. So the next step would be to examine the victim and if the wounds doesn't match the knife blade, then its probably not the murder weapon and even what the purpose of the knife was is not sure, maybe the victim defended them self or whatever. That is why you gather evidence and good ones to try to figure out what most likely happened.

You just described how human society progresses over time, which is the reason why God uses progressive revelation.

No, I just described how societies and cultures evolve over time, it have nothing to do with God. a lot of these societies and cultures wouldn't even know what the God you are talking about is at that point.

 

[Trailblazer]

None of them, the closes you get is that they tolerate each other and with good reason. They don't believe in what you do. They believe that their religion is true and all others are false, therefore there is no reason to and makes little sense for them wanting to unite all of humanity through accepting all religions as being equal or true. Either you convert to Christianity, Islam or whatever religion one might have, because that is the true one depending on what you believe. Why would they encourage other to believe in some false God that they do not believe in? That is why I say they tolerate each other and can accept that the "others" just haven't discovered the truth yet. Its exactly the same as you are doing, as you think that people would be much better off if they would just accept Bahai teachings and the words of Baha'u'llah, because you know that they are true..

No, it is not exactly the same thing as Baha’is are doing, because we believe that all those older religions are true, but their social teachings and laws are outdates and they are missing the message that is pertinent for this age, the remedy that mankind needs.

But I think your interpretation is just way off, it doesn't even follow the story. To summarize the story:

I was not trying to follow the story. I was just interpreting a few verses.

Isaiah 9:1
1[a]Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the nations, by the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan—

However this will not last forever.
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

This is from what I understand the promise of the Messiah, that will free or save Jerusalem and Israel. And he will reign on David throne and bring Justice etc.

The Messiah did not just come to free or save Jerusalem and Israel, He came to free and save the entire world. His name was Baha’u’llah. Jews believe they “own” the Messiah just because He is referred to in their scriptures, but He was also referred to in the scriptures of all the other major religions. Please note that the following website is NOT a Baha’i website.

Prophecies from World Religion and other sources

Prophecies

In this page a links to other pages concentrating on prophecies contained in some of the major Religious and Spiritual traditions of the World. Also I have included some predictions of Nostradamus and there is an article on 2012 which is the special date when the Mayan calendar comes to an end. In each section I give some background to the prophecies from the respective World Religions and also discuss some of their social and political implications.

The list of included prophecies and articles will grow over time as I sort through my papers and book collection. If any readers have any ideas of things to include then any suggestions would be most welcome. Go to the Contact section to get in touch.

1./ Jewish Prophecies and Messianic Expectation

2./ Christian Prophecies and the Second Coming of Christ

3./ Muslim Prophecies and the Appearance of Imam Mahdi

4./ Hindu Prophecies and the Incarnation of the Kalki Avatar

5./ Buddhist Prophecies and the Coming of Maitraya

6./ Zoroastrian Prophecies for the Coming of the Saoshyant

7./ Prophecies of Nostradamus

8./ Native American Prophecies

9./ Norse Prophecies

10./ 2012 and the end of the Mayan Calendar

Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

And then you get to Isaiah 11, where he basically tells about all the good things that will happen once all of this have been done.......

So you see this relate to the Messiah (As far as I get it) That will save them from being mislead by false prophets and from the Assyrians. Its not about bring together all religions or to unity humanity. Its about God and the Jews and Jerusalem. And the one that is going to do it is the one mentioned above that will sit on David thrones and not Baha'u'llah.

All of Isaiah 11 is about Baha’u’llah. The good things that will happen are because of Him.
I am glad you (like everyone else) think you have figured out what these scriptures mean, but you (like everyone else) are wrong. God does not favor the Jews and Jerusalem, far from it. They rejected Jesus Christ, which was an unforgiveable sin, and that is why they were banished from their homeland. And then they rejected Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah. It is the epitome of arrogance for them to believe they are better than all these other religions.

“And when the days of Moses were ended, and the light of Jesus, shining forth from the Day Spring of the Spirit, encompassed the world, all the people of Israel arose in protest against Him. They clamored that He Whose advent the Bible had foretold must needs promulgate and fulfil the laws of Moses, whereas this youthful Nazarene, who laid claim to the station of the divine Messiah, had annulled the laws of divorce and of the sabbath day—the most weighty of all the laws of Moses. Moreover, what of the signs of the Manifestation yet to come? These people of Israel are even unto the present day still expecting that Manifestation which the Bible hath foretold! How many Manifestations of Holiness, how many Revealers of the light everlasting, have appeared since the time of Moses, and yet Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation. As she never grasped their true significance, and, to outward seeming, such events never came to pass, she, therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the Face of God. And they still await His coming! From time immemorial even unto this day, all the kindreds and peoples of the earth have clung to such fanciful and unseemly thoughts, and thus have deprived themselves of the clear waters streaming from the springs of purity and holiness...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 20-21

The Messiah will reign on David throne and bring Justice.

2: O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 3-4

Baha’u’llah is already sitting on the throne of David, and He will reign forever and ever. There will be more Messengers of God in the future, but all of them will be under the shadow of Baha’u’llah for the next 500,000 years.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

The God of the OT couldn't care less about other religions and other people than he does. He cares about the Jews and the Israelite's. Its first with Christianity and especially Paul that people start to believe that he does.

There is no such thing as “the God of the OT;” there is just God, the one true God of all the great religions. The Baha’i Faith is simply the latest chapter in the Book of God.

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.

Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136

 

[Trailblazer]

Im sorry but it doesn't, it could indicate that more people feel attracted to it, because it pictures God more humane than others does. Do you know what religion those that join you tend to have before hand?

Perhaps more people feel attracted to it because “there is something to it.” Some might join because it pictures God more humanely than other religions, but that is not what I have heard from people who joined. Most Baha’is I know joined because they care about the oneness of humanity, elimination of prejudice of all kinds, and world peace.

Baha’is come from all different religions; Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and others. Baha’i communities are located in over 250 countries and territories around the world.

Personally I don't think any of them fits Jesus. There might be some verses that does, but there are just as many that doesn't. I think the reason atheist appears to do it, is because we are skeptic about it. As I said we have heard a lot of these claims before and yet see no evidence. Just from reading your replies its quite obvious that we look at evidence differently, where you see some I don't and vice versa.

Yes, that is always the way with atheists because they are looking for the kind of evidence that does not exist for a religion.

Evidence doesn't necessarily tell what happened, its just indications of what is most likely to be true. For instance a knife might be found at a crime scene with the blood of both the victim and the murderer on it, however it only indicate that the knife was most likely used, but what exactly happen with it, is not known for sure at this point. So the next step would be to examine the victim and if the wounds doesn't match the knife blade, then its probably not the murder weapon and even what the purpose of the knife was is not sure, maybe the victim defended them self or whatever. That is why you gather evidence and good ones to try to figure out what most likely happened.

What I meant is that what actually happened when Baha’u’llah appeared on Earth, from his childhood through His 40 year mission years, till he died, which is called the history of His Cause, is evidence that indicates He was a Messenger of God… It is not proof, it is evidence.

No, I just described how societies and cultures evolve over time, it have nothing to do with God. a lot of these societies and cultures wouldn't even know what the God you are talking about is at that point.

How do you know it has nothing to do with a God? The way God was revealed has varied among societies and cultures over time because God’s appearance was tailored to the times and the people he revealed Himself to. No, they would not have recognized the God described by Baha’u’llah because they were not ready to understand such a God concept.

 

[Nimos]

How do you know it has nothing to do with a God? The way God was revealed has varied among societies and cultures over time because God’s appearance was tailored to the times and the people he revealed Himself to. No, they would not have recognized the God described by Baha’u’llah because they were not ready to understand such a God concept.

Because the way some of these cultures describe their Gods doesn't fit that of the bible or the Quran. It makes no logical sense for God to decide to reveal himself to the Norse as Odin, Thor, Freya etc. or to throw the plagues on Egypt because he wanted to save the Jews, if he was the God for them as well. To me it seems like you or the Bahai faith if that is the common belief, have a view that everything goes, history or context doesn't matter at all. If some people believe in God, even if the description is completely way off and have nothing in common with the image of God you hold, its perfectly fine, it just means that God chose to reveal himself differently to those people.

That is also why I still have no real clue what God Baha'u'llah actually believed in, because it doesn't seem to fit any of the ones I know, but more like a romantic description of something loving that cares for everyone. Which we don't really have any scriptures or reason to believe in. From what you have written, I really have a hard time fitting the Bahai faith with the God of the bible or even the Quran for that matter. Because the God of the bible at least do really not care about other things than the Jews and Israel. So to suggest that God might have revealed himself depending on time and cultures simply doesn't fit with the biblical God. And if you read the Bible I think you would agree.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because the way some of these cultures describe their Gods doesn't fit that of the bible or the Quran. It makes no logical sense for God to decide to reveal himself to the Norse as Odin, Thor, Freya etc. or to throw the plagues on Egypt because he wanted to save the Jews, if he was the God for them as well. To me it seems like you or the Bahai faith if that is the common belief, have a view that everything goes, history or context doesn't matter at all. If some people believe in God, even if the description is completely way off and have nothing in common with the image of God you hold, its perfectly fine, it just means that God chose to reveal himself differently to those people.

The way some cultures describe their Gods doesn't fit that of the Bible or the Quran is either because (1) God revealed Himself differently to those cultures, or because (2) those people misconstrued what was revealed, or because (3) whatever was revealed was not from the one true God. Those are the three possibilities. I really don’t know which one it is, but it does not really matter anymore because those older religions are no longer pertinent to this new age. Odin, Thor, Freya are not representative of the real God, they are man-made gods. There have only been a numbered few universal Manifestations of God who established true religions. Some of them are Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah, but there are some other Prophets that Bahaullah mentioned in The Kitáb-i-Íqán.

I am not saying it is completely fine that some people believe in false conceptions of God. It would be better if they believed in the Baha’i Faith, but I think in lieu of that it might be better that they at least have a God belief. On the other hand, it might be better if they have no belief in God because at least then there might be a better chance of them believing in the Baha’i Faith, since people who already have a religion are unlikely to change their religion.

That is also why I still have no real clue what God Baha'u'llah actually believed in, because it doesn't seem to fit any of the ones I know, but more like a romantic description of something loving that cares for everyone. Which we don't really have any scriptures or reason to believe in. From what you have written, I really have a hard time fitting the Bahai faith with the God of the bible or even the Quran for that matter. Because the God of the bible at least do really not care about other things than the Jews and Israel. So to suggest that God might have revealed himself depending on time and cultures simply doesn't fit with the biblical God. And if you read the Bible I think you would agree.

The best way to find out what Baha’u’llah believed about God is to read what He wrote. Excerpts from various Tablets are contained in Gleanings. I prefer to read the older version online but the newer version is fully downloadable in the Baha’i Reference Library (BRL).

Older version of BRL: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh

Newer version of BRL: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh

The God of the Old Testament was addressing the Jews but that does not mean God cared only about the Jews. The God of the New Testament was speaking to all of humanity, since Jesus came to confer salvation upon everyone. The Muslims believe that the guidance in the Quran is for all people so in that sense it is similar to what Baha’is believe about Baha’u’llah speaking to all of humanity. However Muslims differ from Baha’is in that they believe that Muhammad was the last and final Messenger of God and they believe the Qur’an is for all time, whereas Baha’u’llah did not claim to be the last and final Messenger of God.

Like the Writings of Baha’u’llah, the Quran acknowledges the common thread in all the divine messages and recognizes all the Messengers of past religions as being part of one continuous revelation from God to man.

 

[Nimos]

The way some cultures describe their Gods doesn't fit that of the Bible or the Quran is either because (1) God revealed Himself differently to those cultures, or because (2) those people misconstrued what was revealed, or because (3) whatever was revealed was not from the one true God. Those are the three possibilities.

But from what you write about the Norse Gods being man made, you are completely certain of that. So why wouldn't that apply to the other religions that you don't agree with either? How come they don't fall in this type of certainty as well? And if you actually think they are, then option 1 is not really an option I guess, which also means that option 2 is neither as these Gods was obviously made up, so nothing were actually revealed to them. Which also mean that option 3 is not valid either as what were revealed to them was not from the one true God that you refer to.

So when all comes down to it, there are not really any possibilities, except those that all other religions use as well. The know they have the correct religion and all others are wrong and that it simply about tolerating the "other" because they don't know better. That was pretty much what I wrote to you in the last reply. Your approach to your religion is no difference than that of any other. You know the truth and everyone else just doesn't know it yet. I have talked with other religious people, especially JWs before, can't remember if I already told you. But I talked with one of them for around 2 years about the bible and what she believed and trust me, she reached or said they exact same thing that you are saying here, except that you just have to replace Bahai with JW. But don't get me wrong, it makes sense, if people didn't believe in whatever religion they have as being the true one, then why would they believe it in the first place?

But that also why I think you find it more difficult to find people which already hold a believe to change it, because first you have to convince them that what they currently believe is false and then try to convince them that you have the truth.

I am not saying it is completely fine that some people believe in false conceptions of God. It would be better if they believed in the Baha’i Faith, but I think in lieu of that it might be better that they at least have a God belief. On the other hand, it might be better if they have no belief in God because at least then there might be a better chance of them believing in the Baha’i Faith, since people who already have a religion are unlikely to change their religion.

I don't think I get that logic, the question is not whether they believe one or the other thing as I see it. But whether what they potentially believe in is actually true or more likely to be true than not. Remember I told you in a post long ago by now, that I don't care what people believe in, I only care about bad ideas. And if believing in a God which is not true, result in people behaving and feel like they ought to behave in a certain way, that can be damaging to them or others then I have a problem with it.

The God of the Old Testament was addressing the Jews but that does not mean God cared only about the Jews. The God of the New Testament was speaking to all of humanity, since Jesus came to confer salvation upon everyone.

I personally think that its a misunderstanding that Jesus came to remove the law, I don't find the Bible to support that claim very well. If I remember correct, this is due to Jesus saying that he is here to fulfill the law and then for some very weird verse in John, I think it is, saying that he have now fulfilled it. But this doesn't fit with that Jesus is saying other places in the Bible, where he say that law should be followed.

I read some of the stuff you linked and it seems that he believe in some mixture or slightly unspecific God based on the bible and Quran without really going in details. My initial view is that he seems to cherry pick certain verses or passages from the bible that he likes and leave out the discussion of what people actually think these means. It obviously doesn't mean that he is wrong, I do however think he is wrong when he say that Jesus removed the law. But guess that is my personal opinion as others would clearly disagree with that.

 

[Trailblazer]

But from what you write about the Norse Gods being man made, you are completely certain of that. So why wouldn't that apply to the other religions that you don't agree with either? How come they don't fall in this type of certainty as well? And if you actually think they are, then option 1 is not really an option I guess, which also means that option 2 is neither as these Gods was obviously made up, so nothing were actually revealed to them. Which also mean that option 3 is not valid either as what were revealed to them was not from the one true God that you refer to.

Regarding the Norse Gods or any other gods who are not represented by a true Messenger of God, they all fall into the same category; they are false. So yes, I would apply that to any other religions that I do not agree with. All these religions would fall under category (3) whatever was revealed was not from the one true God.

So when all comes down to it, there are not really any possibilities, except those that all other religions use as well. They know they have the correct religion and all others are wrong and that it simply about tolerating the "other" because they don't know better. That was pretty much what I wrote to you in the last reply. Your approach to your religion is no difference than that of any other. You know the truth and everyone else just doesn't know it yet. I have talked with other religious people, especially JWs before, can't remember if I already told you. But I talked with one of them for around 2 years about the bible and what she believed and trust me, she reached or said they exact same thing that you are saying here, except that you just have to replace Bahai with JW. But don't get me wrong, it makes sense, if people didn't believe in whatever religion they have as being the true one, then why would they believe it in the first place?

Do you understand that it does not matter what any of us believe, because beliefs do not create reality?

What I mean is that is completely irrelevant that we all believe that we have the one true religion; the only thing that is relevant is which religion is the true religion. Obviously, all the religions cannot be true if they contradict each other. Some of what is in the JW and Christian religion and in Islam and Judaism are the same as what Baha’is believe (there is crossover) but all of it is not the same. So if the Baha’i Faith is the one true religion, none of older religions can be the one true religion, even if they contain some truths.

But that also why I think you find it more difficult to find people which already hold a believe to change it, because first you have to convince them that what they currently believe is false and then try to convince them that you have the truth.

Well, that is what I have been trying to tell you all along. The primary reason the Baha’i Faith has not grown faster than it has is because 84 percent of the world population has a faith, and most of the people in those faiths were raised in those faiths so they are firm in their faith. There might be some people in those faiths who are not that firm and they might be amenable to looking at a new religion, but most people who have a religion are not looking for another religion.

I don't think I get that logic, the question is not whether they believe one or the other thing as I see it. But whether what they potentially believe in is actually true or more likely to be true than not.

Well, I agree that the most important thing is whether the religion is true or not. I was coming from a different angle. I was thinking that maybe it is better to at least believe in God than not, especially if they believe in a religion that was originally revealed by God to a Messenger, such as was the case in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. On the other hand it might be better if they are agnostic because in that case they might be more open to believe in the Baha’i Faith.

Remember I told you in a post long ago by now, that I don't care what people believe in, I only care about bad ideas. And if believing in a God which is not true, result in people behaving and feel like they ought to behave in a certain way, that can be damaging to them or others then I have a problem with it.

I can agree with that and I tend to agree with it, but since I am a Baha’i, I think I see the damage in a broader way than you see it as an atheist. I think it is also damaging for them to cling to an older religion because that means they will never recognize Baha’u’llah. So even if they lead a good life as a Christian there are repercussions for rejecting Baha’u’llah, and I tend to think that a religious person is more accountable for recognizing Baha’u’llah than an atheist because they already believe in God. Especially if they are a Jew or a Christian, I think they are accountable because the prophecies in their scriptures all point to Baha’u’llah. Atheist by contrasts have more hurdles to cross sine they have to also believe that there is a God.

I personally think that its a misunderstanding that Jesus came to remove the law, I don't find the Bible to support that claim very well. If I remember correct, this is due to Jesus saying that he is here to fulfill the law and then for some very weird verse in John, I think it is, saying that he have now fulfilled it. But this doesn't fit with that Jesus is saying other places in the Bible, where he say that law should be followed.

I fully agree that Jesus came to fulfill the law, and he wanted the law to be upheld, but Paul changed everything and made it so Christians were no longer subject to the law, turning Christianity into a lawless religion. A religion without laws is not a religion at all. Jesus would not be pleased with what Paul did.

I read some of the stuff you linked and it seems that he believe in some mixture or slightly unspecific God based on the bible and Quran without really going in details. My initial view is that he seems to cherry pick certain verses or passages from the bible that he likes and leave out the discussion of what people actually think these means. It obviously doesn't mean that he is wrong, I do however think he is wrong when he say that Jesus removed the law. But guess that is my personal opinion as others would clearly disagree with that.

I am not sure what you read or what you are comparing it to from the Bible or the Qur’an. From my point of view as a Baha’i, what Baha’u’llah wrote is the Divine Standard, so it supersedes ant scriptures that were written before. That is what happens every time a new Manifestation of God appears. I do not think I ever posted this to you, but this is the Baha’i position on its relationship to the older religions that were revealed by God:

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures, disclaims any intention of lowering the status of their Founders or of abating the spiritual ideals they inculcate, clarifies and correlates their functions, reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, reconciles their seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, readily and gratefully recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to be but one link in the chain of continually progressive Revelations, supplements their teachings with such laws and ordinances as conform to the imperative needs, and are dictated by the growing receptivity, of a fast evolving and constantly changing society, and proclaims its readiness and ability to fuse and incorporate the contending sects and factions into which they have fallen into a universal Fellowship, functioning within the framework, and in accordance with the precepts, of a divinely conceived, a world-unifying, a world-redeeming Order.” God Passes By, p. 100

Thus the Baha’i Faith recognizes the contributions the older religions have made to the advancement of civilization and the spiritual growth of mankind which is owing to the gradual unfolding of Divine Revelation over time.

The Baha’i Faith does not claim to be the only true religion or the last religion. It claims to be only one link in the chain of a continuously unfolding Revelation from God to man through Messengers of God.

It is necessary for religion to meet the vital needs of the times we live in which are dictated by fast evolving and constantly changing society. The Baha’i Faith supplements the teachings and laws of the older religions to conform to the needs of present day society. Baha’u’llah revealed what will be needed during this dispensation, from 1852 moving forward until a new Messenger of God appears, which can happen in no less than 1000 years.

Finally, the Baha’i Faith proclaims that in the future all the religions will be united into one religion and function within the framework revealed by Baha’u’llah under a world-unifying and a world-redeeming New World Order, which will replace the old world order we are now living in. This has been referred to in the Bible as the Kingdom of God in earth.

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

 

[Nimos]

Do you understand that it does not matter what any of us believe, because beliefs do not create reality?

Yes I completely agree with that.

I can agree with that and I tend to agree with it, but since I am a Baha’i, I think I see the damage in a broader way than you see it as an atheist. I think it is also damaging for them to cling to an older religion because that means they will never recognize Baha’u’llah.

But that only applies if they are wrong. If they are right however that would mean that you are actually working against the will of God, so we end up in the same place, don't we? Because you would like them to accept or convert to Bahai faith and they would like you to convert to their faith.

So even if they lead a good life as a Christian there are repercussions for rejecting Baha’u’llah, and I tend to think that a religious person is more accountable for recognizing Baha’u’llah than an atheist because they already believe in God.

But this only applies if his claims is actually true and for some reason he at least to me, doesn't seem to have been all that effective in making people believe his words. I know that you say that it takes time for all religions, but I still think that if what he said were as clear and obvious as you see it. People from religions like Christianity, Judaism and Islam would recognize the truth in his word in much greater numbers than they seem to be doing. I can see why atheists and agnostics would not, because we don't find any of the evidence compelling in the first place.

Especially if they are a Jew or a Christian, I think they are accountable because the prophecies in their scriptures all point to Baha’u’llah. Atheist by contrasts have more hurdles to cross sine they have to also believe that there is a God.

I would have to disagree with this, I don't think the prophecies point to Baha'u'llah, again because there is no way for us to demonstrate that he is not one of the false prophets that the Bible is warning against. I know that you say that we can recognize him by how good he is. But as we already talked about earlier, this doesn't tell us anything. A lot of people have mislead others by claiming and seemingly doing good things to convince others to follow them. So even though I have no reason to believe that he weren't in fact a good person, It give me no reason to assume that he is anything but a normal person sharing his own conviction of what he believe to be true. Our view on this, relate to how we look at evidence which we have talked about earlier i think. But that peoples own accounts or claims to me is not evidence for anything when it comes to claims of such nature.

I fully agree that Jesus came to fulfill the law, and he wanted the law to be upheld, but Paul changed everything and made it so Christians were no longer subject to the law, turning Christianity into a lawless religion. A religion without laws is not a religion at all. Jesus would not be pleased with what Paul did.

But this is in contrast to what Baha'u'llah said, he agrees from what I can see that Jesus did remove the law as Paul said. So would you say that Baha'u'llah got this wrong or how is that to be understood?

I am not sure what you read or what you are comparing it to from the Bible or the Qur’an.

I was reading some of the texts that Baha'u'llah wrote where he talks about the Moses, Jesus and some of the verses from the Bible. maybe I misunderstood you.

 

[Trailblazer]

But that only applies if they are wrong. If they are right however that would mean that you are actually working against the will of God, so we end up in the same place, don't we? Because you would like them to accept or convert to Bahai faith and they would like you to convert to their faith.

You are right, so the only important question is whether the Baha’i Faith is true or false, and that hinges upon whether Baha’u’llah was a true Prophet or a false prophet.

I have been saying this ever since I came to forums in 2013. Baha’u’llah was either a Manifestation of God or He was a false prophet, in which case he was either deluded or psychotic or a con-man. The reason that we look at Baha’u’llah and his character is to help determine that. But His character is not all we need to look. We might be able to rule out His being deluded or psychotic or a con-man, but that does not mean He was a Manifestation of God. There are lots of good men in the world but they are not Manifestations of God.

But this only applies if his claims is actually true and for some reason he at least to me, doesn't seem to have been all that effective in making people believe his words. I know that you say that it takes time for all religions, but I still think that if what he said were as clear and obvious as you see it. People from religions like Christianity, Judaism and Islam would recognize the truth in his word in much greater numbers than they seem to be doing. I can see why atheists and agnostics would not, because we don't find any of the evidence compelling in the first place.

First of all, Baha’u’llah was not trying to convince anyone of who He was. Of course He made the claim and garnered a few followers, He had to do that in order to get the religion started. Well, here I go again, I have this saved in a Word document for easy access.

You are wrong that we would expect more people to believe in the Baha’i Faith than presently do, and there are many reasons why we would not expect to see this, even aside from the fact that the religion is fairly new.

First, no matter how great the message is if it does not get delivered or received it cannot have any effect. The Baha’is have not done that great a job of getting the message out, Imo, at least not since the 1970s and 1980s, so growth has slowed down since then.

Second, No matter how great the message is if it is rejected after it is delivered and received it cannot have any effect.

The fact that most people reject the message is only proof of only one thing....Very few people meet the criteria necessary to become Baha’is. The reason it is clear and obvious to Baha’is is because we meet certain criteria for recognizing Baha’u’llah and not many people do. That is why Jesus said...

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

The religion at the narrow gate is the religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new Messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of Messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.

It is difficult to get through the narrow gate because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow the broad road that is easiest for them to travel.

I would have to disagree with this, I don't think the prophecies point to Baha'u'llah, again because there is no way for us to demonstrate that he is not one of the false prophets that the Bible is warning against.

How do you know that? I suggest you read Thief in the Night by William Sears before you make your decision. Moreover, it is important to note that just because Jesus warned of false prophets that does not mean all prophets would be false. It is illogical to assume that just because most prophets were false there cannot be a true Prophet. Jesus also said we shall know them by their fruits, so that indicates that there are true Prophets.

I know that you say that we can recognize him by how good he is. But as we already talked about earlier, this doesn't tell us anything. A lot of people have mislead others by claiming and seemingly doing good things to convince others to follow them. So even though I have no reason to believe that he weren't in fact a good person, It give me no reason to assume that he is anything but a normal person sharing his own conviction of what he believe to be true. Our view on this, relate to how we look at evidence which we have talked about earlier i think. But that peoples own accounts or claims to me is not evidence for anything when it comes to claims of such nature.

I just explained that above, before I read what you just wrote. No, obviously someone is not a Manifestation of God just because they are a good person. I double back to what I posted before:

Baha’u’llah explained how we are supposed to establish the truth of His claim. First, we examine His own Self (His character); then we examine His Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth); and then we look at His words (His Writings). All this evidence can be researched and verified to be connected to Baha’u’llah, so nobody can say that Baha’u’llah did not offer proof that supports His claim to be a Messenger of God.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

But this is in contrast to what Baha'u'llah said, he agrees from what I can see that Jesus did remove the law as Paul said. So would you say that Baha'u'llah got this wrong or how is that to be understood?

I do not know what you are referring to that Baha’u’llah wrote but if Baha’u’llah said that the law was removed He did not agree it was the right thing to do. The following demonstrates how important laws are, and this would apply to any religion:

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

Then there is also the quote below, which is saying the same thing in brief, since knowledge of God can only be apprehended only by recognition of the Manifestation of God (Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws), and that is followed by strict observance to the laws.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5

I was reading some of the texts that Baha'u'llah wrote where he talks about the Moses, Jesus and some of the verses from the Bible. maybe I misunderstood you.

I don’t know if you read The Kitáb-i-Íqán but it is considered Baha’u’llah’s most important work aside from The Kitáb-i-Aqdas – The Most Holy Book which is Baha’u’llah’s book of laws, written around 1873 while He was still imprisoned within the city of 'Akká.

 

[Nimos]

You are right, so the only important question is whether the Baha’i Faith is true or false, and that hinges upon whether Baha’u’llah was a true Prophet or a false prophet.

So looked a bit into the Baha'u'llah and the laws of the Bahai faith.

About Marriage:
This precludes marriages that are homosexual or polygamous as well as any sexual relationship outside of marriage. Interreligious marriages are permitted, and interracial marriages are encouraged. Divorce is permitted, although discouraged, and is granted after a year of separation if the couple is unable to reconcile their differences.

So Baha'u'llah had 3 wifes? Which apparently were fine because the law of Islam had not been superseeded at that point.

Personally I see no problem with it, but don't you find it straight why God would care about it? Why is it important for God that polygamy should not be allowed all of the sudden, when Islam allows it. Don't you find that to be confusing, wouldn't you think that he have more interesting things to care about? To me its sort of like circumcision, what exactly is going on with God and these weird rules? Do you ever wonder why these things are important for an all mighty God? To me that is extremely weird.

How do you know that? I suggest you read Thief in the Night by William Sears before you make your decision. Moreover, it is important to note that just because Jesus warned of false prophets that does not mean all prophets would be false. It is illogical to assume that just because most prophets were false there cannot be a true Prophet. Jesus also said we shall know them by their fruits, so that indicates that there are true Prophets.

I read some of it, its 300 pages so wont read it all. But I don't agree with what he is saying.

He put forward 3 promises, Why he chose those exact promises I don't really know, from what I could figure out Jesus/God made around 5467 promises in the bible. So why it have to be these 3 to his disciples is not really made clear I think.

"I found the answer. This date in history had been chosen primarily because of three specific promises made by Christ Himself to His disciples. He gave three promises, saying that when these three things came to pass, He (Christ) would return to earth. The promises are as follows: 1. His Gospel would be preached everywhere on earth. 2. The ‘times of the Gentiles’ would be fulfilled, and the Jews would return to Israel (Palestine). 3. All mankind would see the ‘abomination of desolation’ foretold by Daniel the Prophet."

Promise 1 how do you decide whether or not that is fulfilled, you can find places on Earth where the Gospel are not preached and where people have not even heard of Jesus. So do we assume that because Christianity is widely spread that this promise have then been furfilled? There is no way to make a rational judgement of that. And to be honest if we should be very specific, this promise have not been fulfilled.

Promise 2 sort of falls in the same category as 1, how many Jews do we talk about, every single one? or do we just say a majority or just enough and then this promise is fulfilled as well? There is no way to validate this. Yet it doesn't prevent him from reaching the conclusion that both of these promises have been fulfilled.

Promise 3 is slight more interesting, here he quote from Matthew:

I found the third promise of Christ to be the most interest- It was given in the twenty-fourth chapter of Matthew.
The third promise was again given in direct answer to the questions of His disciples: “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming?”
Christ foretold that ‘iniquity would abound’ in that day, and that the ‘love of many shall wax cold’; then He makes His third promise in these words: “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth let him understand.)”

And after that he jumps to Daniel.

But reading further in Matthew it says this:

Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

So this guy at the end of having gone through the promises reach this conclusion:

I found that all three of Christ’s prophecies to His disciples had been fulfilled exactly as He promised.
1. The Gospel had been preached in all the world for a witness.
2. The times of the Gentiles had been fulfilled.
3. The prophecy of Daniel given by Christ as the time to stand in the holy place had come to pass.

Each of these prophecies had been fulfilled in the year 1844!

It makes little sense I think. If the verses he used in promise 3 is not taken out of context, then the text from the very same passage that he reference must be true as well. Meaning that what Jesus talk about in Matthew 24 29-35 is how it will occur. Reading 34 and 35, Jesus say that all of these things will happen, so:

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]

Ill give Jesus a pass on the nonsense description of what will happen, as it seems to be the ancient people understanding of how the universe works. But also no angels with loud trumpets calls or Son of Man have descended from heaven as Jesus say will happen. Yet the person examining these promises have simply ignored this part and cherry picked some of the verse to then jump straight to Daniels and then draw up his conclusion that all of it is fulfilled exactly as he promised.

To me this is basically what I would expect from a religious study into the validity of such claims. Its biased, because it have an agenda which is decided before hand and stuff that doesn't fit into the conclusion that need to be reached is either left out or manipulated to fit. I have a very hard time taking stuff like this serious, because it reminds me of when JWs used to come up with date for the end times, its "research" done by people without any rational or objective approach to these topics. So when it all comes down to it, promise 1 and 2 we can't validate as being true or false, because we have no clue what exactly the criteria is for them to be so. Promise 3 is cherry picked verses to reach a specific conclusion. Yet this guy have no issue accepting all of them as if they were absolute truth. Which makes me highly doubt that anything he have written in this book is to be trusted and therefore would have to double check everything in it, meaning all his sources etc. Because I really don't trust that this person is capable of critical and rational thinking to adresse issues as these.

But lets put some more light on this, now that we are looking at it. So this book you linked is the first edition published in 1961 by William Sears. So went to look him up and not very surprising he have been a devoted follower of Bahai since 1940. So how surprising is it that he reach the conclusion that he does? Imagine if he had reach the conclusion that none of the stuff were actually fitting, now that would have surprised me greatly

 

[Trailblazer]

So looked a bit into the Baha'u'llah and the laws of the Bahai faith.

About Marriage:
This precludes marriages that are homosexual or polygamous as well as any sexual relationship outside of marriage. Interreligious marriages are permitted, and interracial marriages are encouraged. Divorce is permitted, although discouraged, and is granted after a year of separation if the couple is unable to reconcile their differences.

So Baha'u'llah had 3 wifes? Which apparently were fine because the law of Islam had not been superseeded at that point.

Personally I see no problem with it, but don't you find it straight why God would care about it? Why is it important for God that polygamy should not be allowed all of the sudden, when Islam allows it. Don't you find that to be confusing, wouldn't you think that he have more interesting things to care about? To me its sort of like circumcision, what exactly is going on with God and these weird rules? Do you ever wonder why these things are important for an all mighty God? To me that is extremely weird.

Once reason is that polygamy is not the law anymore is because the Revelation of Baha’u’llah was addressed to the entire world, not just Muslim countries, and most countries are monogamous. Besides that, Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha said that a man cannot do justice to more than one wife. The reasons for polygamy are no longer valid in the modern world. In the days of Muhammad men married many wives in order to protect them because a woman alone had no protection, so if her husband died another man, often a relative, would marry her.

The Guardian Shoghi Effendi said that homosexuality is “against nature.”

Homosexual marriage is disallowed because it does not produce children which is the primary purpose of marriage. Sex out of wedlock is disallowed because it threatens the institution of marriage. If people want to have sex they should get married, otherwise where is the commitment? I feel very strongly about this law and I adhered to it. My husband is also a Baha’i. He was 42 when we got married, I was 32, and we were both virgins. In fact, I think it is worse to have sex out of wedlock than to be a married homosexual, because the former has no demonstration of commitment whereas the latter does. As such, I am glad that most states in the U.S. now allow homosexual marriage, even though it is against Baha’i Laws. I personally have no issues with homosexuality, sexual preference is no big deal. What I do have a problem with is promiscuity and adultery.

“The Bahá’í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Bahá’í law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.” The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 223

I read some of it, its 300 pages so wont read it all. But I don't agree with what he is saying.

He put forward 3 promises, Why he chose those exact promises I don't really know, from what I could figure out Jesus/God made around 5467 promises in the bible. So why it have to be these 3 to his disciples is not really made clear I think.

I do not know the answer to that either. Probably these three promises were significant for a reason. Sears had been a Christian his entire life so I am sure he knew the Bible.

"I found the answer. This date in history had been chosen primarily because of three specific promises made by Christ Himself to His disciples. He gave three promises, saying that when these three things came to pass, He (Christ) would return to earth. The promises are as follows: 1. His Gospel would be preached everywhere on earth.2. The ‘times of the Gentiles’ would be fulfilled, and the Jews would return to Israel (Palestine).3. All mankind would see the ‘abomination of desolation’ foretold by Daniel the Prophet."

Promise 1 how do you decide whether or not that is fulfilled, you can find places on Earth where the Gospel are not preached and where people have not even heard of Jesus. So do we assume that because Christianity is widely spread that this promise have then been fulfilled? There is no way to make a rational judgement of that. And to be honest if we should be very specific, this promise have not been fulfilled.

Promise 2 sort of falls in the same category as 1, how many Jews do we talk about, every single one? or do we just say a majority or just enough and then this promise is fulfilled as well? There is no way to validate this. Yet it doesn't prevent him from reaching the conclusion that both of these promises have been fulfilled.

Promise 3 is slight more interesting, here he quote from Matthew:

I found the third promise of Christ to be the most interest- It was given in the twenty-fourth chapter of Matthew.
The third promise was again given in direct answer to the questions of His disciples: “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming?”
Christ foretold that ‘iniquity would abound’ in that day, and that the ‘love of many shall wax cold’; then He makes His third promise in these words: “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth let him understand.)”

I just happen to have the 3 promises posted on my forum because I discussed prophecies with a Christian there for a very long time. There are also many other prophecies there in the Christian Subjects folder.

The name of my forum is The Spiritual Horizon. You can read there as a guest without being a member but I think you have to sign up for the forum to go from here directly to the links to posts I have linked below. All these threads on prophecies are in the Christian Subjects folder.

The 3 Promises of Jesus

53.1 53.2 53.3

And after that he jumps to Daniel.

But reading further in Matthew it says this:

Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Also on my forum, I have posts that cover Signs in the Heavens:

61.1 61.2 61.3 61.4 61.5 61.6

(CONTINUED ON NEXT POST)