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The Bible and an over active imagination!

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Babha Bathra predates Jesus as did the ones who found out that a King was to be born in Bethlehem.

How do you know it predates Jesus? The oldest quotations in the Mishnah are from the Tannaim who date from about 10 CE to 220 CE. How do these predate Jesus?

As for a king being born in Bethlehem, this should not be surprising that the Jewish teachers believed that Messiah would be like David, who was from Bethlehem.
 
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rrobs

Well-Known Member
My Mom got her PhD in English lit at Edinburgh
and taught for some years at a college in HK.
Your first paragraph was not really needed.

The statement was that the bible does not need
interpreting, that it means what it says.

You will note that I made mention of figures of
speech, a nod to that those are there in abundance.

I have on a number of occasions found that I know
the bible better than the church goer that I am talking
to.

The "open mind" question is not an entirely fair one.
Who does have a 100% objective approach to anything?
Certainly, nobody raised as a christian has a prayer of
looking at their book with an open mind. In this, I'd
venture that I had then and have now a more open
mind and a better understanding of what the bible is
than any Christian you will find.

I was raised in a place where Christians are a small
minority, and I had no interest in their doings.

In the US, I found out it is good to know what they
are about. So I read the bible, twice.

Obviously, it is quite a mix of things by many authors
over many years. Some good and some bad advice;
folk wisdom, semi-historical accounts, a bunch of magic
realism, etc and blah. Sometimes in excruciating detail,
sometimes so vague and cryptic you wonder what you
just read. I get all of that. (for heaven's sake!)

Now, to what I said earlier. If it is to be read as a
reasonably straight forward account, not to be interpreted
into something quite different from what
it says, then, of course Jesus is not a door or a lamb,
and, of course the world was poofed into place
more or less as is, not long ago, and, there was
a world wide flood. Which is, as I noted, bs.

Not that I care or that I am (what I see as) a
victim of this fraud, but that is how I see it.

And I am fully aware that there are about as
many different ways to see it as there are
people gifted of god with infallible readin' powers.

T he subject to which I responded was about
reading it with a minimum of interpretation.
Interesting. I had forgotten, but now I remember you mentioning your mom's PHD before. Of course she would understand figures of speech. Many people really don't really understand the full significance of them though. At least that's my experience.

As far as reading it without personal interpretation, I wonder how you would feel if everybody that read your posts had a completely different idea as to what it is you are trying to say. There must be some folks out there who "interpret" your negative view of the scriptures as a cry for help. Now, I'm not saying that is the case, but I have a feeling that such an interpretation would lead you to say something like, "You moron, can't you read simple English?!!!" Maybe even worse.

For what it's worth I'll give you this,

2 Pet 1:20,

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
The word "private" is the Greek word "idios" and literally means "one's own." God's intent was for the reader to just take it for what it says without adding any personal ideas. Isn't that the intent of anybody trying to communicate to others? But when it comes to the scriptures everybody seems to think there just has to be many interpretations. Yet another preconceived idea. It doesn't seem to matter that the book itself dissuades such an idea. People are so convinced that the scriptures need interpretation, that they just gloss over 2 Peter 1:20.

Take care
 

ecco

Veteran Member
emphasis mine

Those who have studied the Bible understand that the end won't come until various signs are first seen. Signs such as the 3rd Jewish Temple being built, the appearance of the antichrist, and the Gospel being preached unto the whole world. Those haven't happened yet.

Hmm. Is the anti-christ Satan? Google seems to give mixed responses. However, it seems that the AntiChrist isn't much of anything until Satan helps him.

Satan seems like a pretty smart dude. Why would he create an AntiChrist?

By now, he's read the Bible and He knows that Jesus will not return until after the AntiCrhist makes an appearance. Until then, He just keeps doing what He has done for the past 2000 years. If he waits another 2,000,000,000,000 years before making an Anti-Christ, He knows Jesus can't return because that's what the Bible says.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
God's intent was for the reader to just take it for what it says without adding any personal ideas.
So, Genesis is the literal truth - Six days, tree, Cain, incest, Noah, Flood, etc.

So, someone (Matthew?) accurately recorded all 2000+ words of the Sermon on the Mount.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
How do you know it predates Jesus? The oldest quotations in the Mishnah are from the Tannaim who date from about 10 CE to 220 CE. How do these predate Jesus?
Look it up....

As for a king being born in Bethlehem, this should not be surprising that the Jewish teachers believed that Messiah would be like David, who was from Bethlehem.

It was written... and that is where they figured it out.

Sounds more like you just don't care.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
The belief of 2 billion people is substance
I guess mathematically that overrides the belief of 1.8 billion Muslims.

But can the beliefs of 2.4 billion Christians have more substance than the beliefs of 4,6 billion people who believe Christianity is wrong?

Let the majority rule!
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Well, lets not even use the Bible, but logic.
I hold that if someone claims they receive a prophecy from God,
1. then this God will obviously let us to test to prove that it is Him speaking, and not this person.
2. This God will give a sign that this person is relaying His words.
3. Such a God will allow me, a mere man, to test this prophet, to see if he can tell the future, or give a sign.
4. if this person can not do it, hell man it is obvious he is a liar!
5. Or he is deceived by Satan.


Why would God entrust Prophet Testing to you? In the grand scheme of things, you are a nobody. What qualifications do you have to serve as a Prophet Tester? Is there some Holy Roller University giving out PhDs in Prophet Testing?
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
I think it is crazy to suggest that just because a lot of people believe in something it must be true, even though there is no evidence to support their belief.:rolleyes:
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Yep, and the agenda for homosexuals is to either kick it to the curb or twist the scriptures so that they approve of, rather than condemn, homosexual liaisons
What in the H. E. double-toothpicks does this have to do with homosexuals?

You seem obsessed. And distraught.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Nope not at all can the Bible be interpreted in so many ways, that's man teachings.
Do you attend church? Do you not listen to the preacher/minister/pastor give his interpretations of scripture? Do you not go to Bible study and get swayed by others' interpretations?
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
So, Genesis is the literal truth - Six days, tree, Cain, incest, Noah, Flood, etc.

So, someone (Matthew?) accurately recorded all 2000+ words of the Sermon on the Mount.
Or not. The beauty of fr
So, Genesis is the literal truth - Six days, tree, Cain, incest, Noah, Flood, etc.

So, someone (Matthew?) accurately recorded all 2000+ words of the Sermon on the Mount.
Very good! You seem to have understood exactly what I said without "interpreting" it. The Bible is the same way (2 Pet 1:20).

Take care
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Is 11:1 Rabbi David Kimchi wrote in reference to this verse, 'By the righteous Branch is meant Messiah.' The compilers of the Targum agreed with Kimchi since they introduced Messiah by name in this passage. (David Baron, Rays of Messiah's Glory: Christ in the Old Testament [Grand Rapids, MI; Zondervan, 1886], p. 78)

Hebrew scholar Alfred Edersheim quotes other Rabbinic writings in reference to this passage:
On Jer. xxiii, 5, 6 the Targum has it: 'And I will raise up for David the Messiah the just.' This is one of the passages from which, according to Rabbinic views, one of the names of the Messiah is derived, viz.: Jehovah our Righteousness. So in the Talmud (Babha Bathra 75b), in the Midrash on Ps. xxii.1, Prov.xix.21, and in that on Lamentations I 16. (Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah [Grand Rapids, MI; Eerdmans, 1972], pt. 2, p. 731).

Matthew 2:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,

6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

David Kimchi, 11th century CE: David Kimchi

The oldest Targum found so far is Targum Job from the Dead Sea Cave, dated to the time of Herod:

The Dead Sea Scrolls - 11Q Targum Job

Targums Onkelos and Jonathan are the next oldest, dating to early first century during the period of the Tannaim.

Targum Onkelos - Wikipedia

Targum Jonathan - Wikipedia

The earliest existing Midrashim date to the same era, that of the Tannaim.

Midrash - Wikipedia

So, you still need to provide a source that predates Jesus that show that he met Jewish prophecies of the messiah.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Interesting. I had forgotten, but now I remember you mentioning your mom's PHD before. Of course she would understand figures of speech. Many people really don't really understand the full significance of them though. At least that's my experience.

As far as reading it without personal interpretation, I wonder how you would feel if everybody that read your posts had a completely different idea as to what it is you are trying to say. There must be some folks out there who "interpret" your negative view of the scriptures as a cry for help. Now, I'm not saying that is the case, but I have a feeling that such an interpretation would lead you to say something like, "You moron, can't you read simple English?!!!" Maybe even worse.

For what it's worth I'll give you this,

2 Pet 1:20,

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
The word "private" is the Greek word "idios" and literally means "one's own." God's intent was for the reader to just take it for what it says without adding any personal ideas. Isn't that the intent of anybody trying to communicate to others? But when it comes to the scriptures everybody seems to think there just has to be many interpretations. Yet another preconceived idea. It doesn't seem to matter that the book itself dissuades such an idea. People are so convinced that the scriptures need interpretation, that they just gloss over 2 Peter 1:20.

Take care

Sorry (ah) to gloss over, but really, that does
not interest me.

I was simply speaking to what comes next
if the bible is to be read to the extent possible
as a straightforward narrative of factual material.

If that is how it is intended, it is a book of bs,
at least in the magic realism parts, and a good
deal else besides.

IF on the other hand, on goes with the notion
that with the right attitude, the so called "holy
spirit" will guide your interpretin' then it is all
"lo here" and, "lo there" from then on, free for
all. The book says whatever anyone wants
it to say.

Which is one of the reasons it has been
popular.

I do not, btw have a "negative" view of your bible.
Call it realistic, and, for that matter, I'd say i
understand it better and appreciate it more than
anyone who professes to be christian does.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Or not. The beauty of fr

Very good! You seem to have understood exactly what I said without "interpreting" it. The Bible is the same way (2 Pet 1:20).

Take care

For clarity, you figure that genesis is a true story
and there really was a world wide flood?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Or not. The beauty of fr

The beauty of "fr"?

That's your response to ...
So, Genesis is the literal truth - Six days, tree, Cain, incest, Noah, Flood, etc.
So, someone (Matthew?) accurately recorded all 2000+ words of the Sermon on the Mount.

Very good! You seem to have understood exactly what I said without "interpreting" it. The Bible is the same way (2 Pet 1:20).

Take care







That is a really poor analogy. I am one person "understanding" what you wrote. Even then, I did not understand what you meant by "fr".



As regards the Bible, there are 4 billion people "understanding" it. All differently.


List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia
...lists hundreds and hundreds. The list seems endless.
 
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rrobs

Well-Known Member
The beauty of "fr"?

That's your response to ...
So, Genesis is the literal truth - Six days, tree, Cain, incest, Noah, Flood, etc.
So, someone (Matthew?) accurately recorded all 2000+ words of the Sermon on the Mount.

That is a really poor analogy. I am one person "understanding" what you wrote. Even then, I did not understand what you meant by "fr".

As regards the Bible, there are 4 billion people "understanding" it. All differently.

List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia
...lists hundreds and hundreds. The list seems endless.
fr was going to be some word or another (I really forget now) that I meant to delete. I'm not sure of the exact key stroke sequence there. Nothing sinister going on.
 
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