(Christians, Muslims): Why your religion?

[SA Huguenot]

So are you saying that there are God's of tribes, towns and cities? like "The God of New York", "The God of England", "The God of the Soviet Union", "The God of Bloemfrontein", "The God of Washington". Your God must be very small if this is the case, your God also sounds like a diplomat rather than being.....God.

But not only that but you believe "he" INCARNATED INTO A BODY

No, In the case where I claim an impostor pretending to be YHWH, I am talking about Satan who appears to people in all his glory as an angel of light, pretending to be God.
Did you realy think I was talking about the living God YHWH, and some other god who impersonated YHWH?
Wow.
never even had such a thought in my monotheistic mind.

 

[SA Huguenot]

This is one of the main questions which keeps me from deciding. I have heard convincing arguments both for and against the textual integrity of the Bible, and at this point I don't see as feasible the common Islamic position that the Bible is absolutely corrupted beyond recognition and take a much more nuanced stance. A lot of Muslims like to cite scholars such as Bart Ehrman in support of that position, but of course such a materialistic approach to textual criticism would yield similar results when applied to the Qur'an, as it has with certain revisionist scholars. We don't have original manuscripts of the Biblical books, and we don't have the original Uthmanic recension of the Qur'an, so the question is still very unclear, at least for me right now. Also, there is the question of the qira'at (styles) of the Qur'an. Both the Hebrew Bible and the Qur'an were originally written in Semitic languages and without vowels. The vocalization of the text was transmitted through tradition. With the Bible, one vocalization was agreed upon by the rabbis, while Muslim scholars preserved 10, which are somehow all correct. So, the Bible seems to win out here, or maybe I'm mistaken.
As for the denominational question, if I were a Christian, I would either be Catholic or Orthodox, and if I was a Muslim, I would probably be Sunni (though I haven't researched as much on the Islamic side).

Well, let me give you the core fact you can use to decide then.

In Christianity, Jesus was the Word (Or as we know it the mind) of God who took on the body of Man.
Jesus then died on the cross, whas ressurected from the dead, and received a body which was one of light, and not as we have today that is a rotting mortal carcass.

This is the whole story of the Gospel of Jesus.
God became Man to save us from death by changing our bodies into one of immortality.

Now, In Islam Jesus is a prophet, and some muslims would tell you Jesus is one of the greatest prophets of God.

Great! Now that we have the facts between Christians and Islam, let me show you the...
Islam check mate question!
In surah 4: 157, the Quran say that Jesus was never crucified, and did not die on a cross.
BUT IT WAS MADE TO APPEAR!

This is where the Quran destroys itself.
1. If the crucifixion was made to appear, it would mean the Quran say that the people who saw Jesus die on the cross, was witnesses to the event!
2. if they did see Jesys die on the cross, they did report this event truthfully in their writings, the godspels.
3. Then these people who saw the crusifixion never lied!

BECAUSE THEY ONLY REPORTED A GREAT STAGED SHOW ALLAH DIRECTED.
Now, the only way one would be able to get past this self destructing statement in the Quran, is if one can claim that the Gospel and Torah was a wholesale corruption.

But wait, This can not be because Allah clearly say the Gospel, and the Torah was a revelation from him!
Allah also say that NO ONE CAN CHANGE HIS WORDS!
Therefore, such a claim will also destroy the credibility of Allah, and have the same consequences on the Quran.

There you have it.
You can accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour, or you can join Islam and suffer to answer surra 4: 157!

Enjoy it pal.
I still think you are a Muslim in disguise.
But 4: 157 will sort the True you out.

 

[Unguru]

I am talking about Satan who appears to people in all his glory as an angel of light, pretending to be God.

Like Jesus re-enacting Dionysus?

 

[SA Huguenot]

I don't know if that's a very good way of testing whether or not they're true. Obviously, the Qur'an presents the text itself, in its content and eloquence, as a miracle, but the Bible is also very eloquent and has rich teachings. This line of thinking doesn't bring us much closer to the truth.

I again found the Quran to be a mixed up Mumble Jumble with plagerised stories from the Bible, Greek and Roman Mythology (susch as Kirche who changed people in pigs), totally concocted fables about Alexander the Great who saw the Sun set in a muddy spring, and many more absurdities such as Allah telling us that he is the commander of all sail ships, and he created these ships as he did with camels so men can ride on them.

I studied it all, and can not find answers to the quranic stupidity contained therein.
on the contrary, after Joseph Ismail challenged me to read Zakir Naik's, science, the Bible and Quran, I tried to find the so called scientific miracles in the Quran, only to discover that the Quran has no such knowledge.
The accusations made by Naik against the Bible, was nicely contained in Maurice Buchaille's book, the Quran, the Bible in relation to science.
In it he attempted to tell the reader that the Bible had many scientific blunders, but the Quran not.
Well, I wanted to get all these scientific errors in the Bible, being an atheist at that time, and I was wacked by the fact that the Bible had no such errors as Buchaille and naik claimed.
In fact, when I tried to get the evidence, Buchaille said, sure, the quran only made a verbal distinction, but how was a man, 1400 years ago, to understand the description on how light reflected from the Moon.
When I went to the Bible to test his theory, I found that what they claimed the Bible did not know about science, in relation with the Quran, wan non existant.
I discovered the source of all the Western scientific discoveries...
The Bible

 

[Unguru]

This is the whole story of the Gospel of Jesus.

Which one?

God's
Thomas'
Marks'
Luke's
John's
Peter's
Judas'
Barnabas'
Marcion's
James'
Mary's
The Ebionites'
The Hebrews'
The Nazarenes'
Apelles'
Nicodemus'
Bartholomew's
Phillips'

?

You've got a few to choose from there, don't assume that the Qur'an considers the Bible to be valid either because it doesn't.

But wait, This can not be because Allah clearly say the Gospel, and the Torah was a revelation from him!

I don't think it's the case, particularly in the way you're interpreting it.

Enjoy it pal.
I still think you are a Muslim in disguise.
But 4: 157 will sort the True you out.

Your paranoia towards Scheherazade is astounding You Christians amuse me.

 

[Unguru]

I discovered the source of all the Western scientific discoveries...

Repeatable, testable, observable experimentation......plus mathematics actually.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Like Jesus re-enacting Dionysus?

And this is also not true at all.
there is no relation between Dionysus and Jesus.
The amulet you might refer to of Dionysus being crucified dates from the 3rd to 4th century AD.
so, I understand this to be that the worshippers coppied jesus to Dionysus, ans not Jesus coppying bacchus.
Do you understand what it means that Jesus died in 33AD, and the crucified Bacchus dates from 300 AD!
Why do you lie like this?

 

[SA Huguenot]

On many many ways, but to put a few simple ones forward: scientific facts from the Qur'an which far surpass those in the bible in accuracy as well as quantity, and the lack of contradictions within the Qur'an.

speaks on muslim to another!
I challenge any one of you to prove your claim that the Quran surpasses the Bible in science.

 

[Unguru]

the Bible in science.

These do not go together well

 

[Unguru]

there is no relation between Dionysus and Jesus.

Prove it!!!

Why do you lie like this?

Yes, I wonder why you do, you make assumption after assumption and never back yourself up with facts, only conspiracy theories and paranoia.

 

[SA Huguenot]

You've got a few to choose from there, don't assume that the Qur'an considers the Bible to be valid either because it doesn't.

OK, so let me show you you dont know what you are talking about when it comes to the fact that the Quran claims the Bible is correct!

Allah sent the Torah and Gospel.
Sahih International: He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

And if you dont believe it you will go to hell.
Sahih International: Before, as guidance for the people. And He revealed the Qur'an. Indeed, those who disbelieve in the verses of Allah will have a severe punishment, and Allah is exalted in Might, the Owner of Retribution.

No one can change Allah's words
Sahih International: And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words, and never will you find in other than Him a refuge.

600 years after Jesus (250 years after the Sinaiticus) Allah tells Christians to judge by the Bible they had.
Sahih International: And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

And also in 630AD Allah tells the Christians to stand fast on the Bible they have, which was revealed by Allah.
Sahih International: Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.

And in 630AD Allah even tells Muhammad to go to the Christians if he wants to know the truth.
Sahih International: So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

My dear Unguru.
I advise you to go and read the Quran before you make statements which is not true.
Here you have Allah saying he revealed the Torah and Gospel, and no one can change his words, Muhammad must ask Christians if he is confused, Christians must hold on to the Bible, and they should judge by the Bible.
This was said in 630AD when Christians had the Bible we have today.

Second, based on the above, these gnostic books you attempt to push in as a distraction is also then nullified.
Check mate!

 

[SA Huguenot]

Prove it!!!



Yes, I wonder why you do, you make assumption after assumption and never back yourself up with facts, only conspiracy theories and paranoia.

Well, I could not find a single connection between Dionysus and Jesus when I studied Mythology.
perhaps you should give my your information so I can double check.
You are the one making the accusation, therefore you should prove it!
I can not prove something that does not exist!
That is silly!

 

[SA Huguenot]

es, I wonder why you do, you make assumption after assumption and never back yourself up with facts, only conspiracy theories and paranoia.

What a terrible accusation for someone that does the same.
I always gave facts, and never ask someone to prove what I claim, but will only demand such on their claims.
What do you smoke pal?

 

[SA Huguenot]

If you are truly conflicted about it, why not try being a Christian Muslim for a while? Yes, there are people who hold both Islam and Christianity to be true, there just aren't very many of them compared to those who identify strictly as either Christian or Muslim. Also it probably won't be easy for you to deal with groups of people from both Christianity and Islam that don't agree with you.

Essentially, the Christian Muslims believe that Muhammad reaffirmed the same message that Christ affirmed and that the Christ was the Ruh Allah or Spirit of God here on Earth. The biggest problem that you have to face is the question of whether or not the Christ died on the cross or not, because Christians generally hold that he did die and Muslims generally hold that he did not die.

Broadly speaking:
Christians say : Christ died and was resurrected.
Muslims say: Christ did not die, but was saved by God.
Christian Muslims say: the Spirit of God is not physical... So.. go argue somewhere else.

Which one are you?

The other thing you have to deal with is how you end up practicing your religion. Muslims pray five times a day. Is that a question of truth? No. It's something revealed to Muhammad and practiced as part of the path of Islam. It's a way for you to follow (because the truth according to Islam is that God wanted people to pray all the time everyday and not just five times a day). Christians need to set apart a day of rest: and in practice that's Sunday. Is it a question of truth? No. It's something Christians did in order to set themselves apart from the Jews who aren't Christians and who rest on Saturdays. So you are going to run into a lots of things like this: the way people of faith have done things in the past and formulated their religious traditions. So when you choose Islam or Christianity you are also choosing a particular group of people who hold common beliefs and common traditions - not because those traditions are "true" but because that's the way in which their higher understanding of God manifests and develops. Does one of these traditions strike you as the best way to build your relationship with God? Consider doing that.

So where do you find your answers?

A Book?
A Person?
A Prophet?
Meditation?
Your Ancestors?
Or do you pray to God directly for understanding?

Each one of these offers potential answers to your questions. Seek and you shall find.

Where on earth do you get a Christian Muslim?
You just made one of the biggest mumbo Jumbo verbal diareah up i ever heard.
And, yes,
One go to the religious books to find out what the religion teaches.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Islam accepts both Jesus and the Bible. All it rejects are the interpretations of 40,000 sects and accepts the Quran’s interpretation of Jesus. Both religions are true and I accept them both.

No, Islam rejects Jesus the Christ who died on the Cross and rose from the dead!
Dont come and practice Taquiah with me pal!
Wont work on someone who knows Isalmic scriptures.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Islam as far as I know isn't very accepting of the NT

Muslims reject the Bible in total with the words, we only believe in those parts which was not corrupted.
Then again the Quran tells the Muslims whoclaims the revelations of Allah is changed, will burn in hell.
The Quran say the Bible is true, Muslims claim it is false.

 

[Unguru]

Allah sent the Torah and Gospel.
Sahih International: He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

Ok, lets think logically here. What is the Torah and Gospel (notice it's singular)? At what point in history was the Pentateuch first referred to as "Torah"? Does this also include the ORAL TORAH? (Talmud)?
If not, then it is likely referring to something else.

I advise you to go and read the Quran before you make statements which is not true.

This was my exact though when I said "You've got a few to choose from there, don't assume that the Qur'an considers the Bible to be valid either because it doesn't.", because you clearly don't even know basic Islamic doctrine, not even BASIC!!

Here you have Allah saying he revealed the Torah and Gospel, and no one can change his words

Then you've clearly refuted yourself in this comment, unless you take hearsay as "God's words".

Christians must hold on to the Bible, and they should judge by the Bible.

Who's canon? yours?

Second, based on the above, these gnostic books you attempt to push in as a distraction is also then nullified.
Check mate!

"Checkmate!", so childish

The Gnostic and Noncanonical texts are true and the Bible is false because the early Church had to silence and remove texts. Clearly the Bible isn't any kind of actual revelation.

 

[Unguru]

The Quran say the Bible is true, Muslims claim it is false.

The Qur'an doesn't, neither do they, you only claim they do in order to strawman them.

The Torah certainly doesn't begin with anything like this:

"Oh Adam, write as I speak!
We have created the Universe in 7 days and made your wife Eve from your rib.
Take care of Eve.
I said 'let there be light' and your children will murder each other.
Oh Adam, this is the Torah, your decedent Abraham will read this one day in dismay.
Adam, enjoy this garden while you can but do not eat from that tree.
I will make laws for your decedents because you will disobey me."
​

I wonder why (because the Bible is a collection of posthumous writings that are not even claimed to be revealed by God, how hilarious is that!)

 

[Wasp]

Islam accepts both Jesus and the Bible. All it rejects are the interpretations of 40,000 sects and accepts the Quran’s interpretation of Jesus. Both religions are true and I accept them both.

That makes you a hypocrite.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Ok, lets think logically here. What is the Torah and Gospel (notice it's singular)? At what point in history was the Pentateuch first referred to as "Torah"? Does this also include the ORAL TORAH? (Talmud)?
If not, then it is likely referring to something else.

If Allah spoke to Muhammad in 600 AD, then he referred to the Bible as we have it today.
You are wrong to even try to tell me that somehow the Gospel and Torah is not, in the viewpoint of the Quran, the revelations of Allah!
Remember, because you forgot, Allah clearly say NO ONE CAN CHANGE HIS REVELATIONS!
or do you say Allah is a liar, somehow the Christians did mannage to change Allah's revelations!
Check mate again!